Hourglass District

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, sunshine said:

Survey said that 80% that use Curry Ford road west are not from the area. They lives in Avalon Park and are too cheap to pay tolls.  They dont stop for the business there.

Since they announced that it is only temporary, these commuters do not change their driving habits.

Give 'em heck, sunshine! Get those suburbanites off our road! *giggles* 

Now if I could get the bubbas who don't have a clue how to parallel park an F250 off Eola Drive, my life would be wonderful.

Edited April 30, 2018 by spenser1058

[HankStrong]

3 hours ago, sunshine said:

Survey said that 80% that use Curry Ford road west are not from the area. They lives in Avalon Park and are too cheap to pay tolls.  They dont stop for the business there.

Since they announced that it is only temporary, these commuters do not change their driving habits.

Where are these results you are quoting?

80% are from Avalon Park and are too cheap to pay tolls????   That's very specific and highly unlikely.  They also confirmed that 80% don't stop to use the businesses?

 

My BS detector is off the charts on this one, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

[sunshine]

A  city of Orlando civil engineer...a friend

Well, the friend put it in a nicer and official way when he told me.

He mentioned that if the city would have announced it better and do not announced that it is only temporary, the people that used this road as way to commute between downtown and east side would have changed their driving behavior in a month or two. Curry Ford road would then be "less crowded" in time.

 

[Jernigan]

I can’t imagine that number ends up being the real number once the reports come out.

NextDoor and even Facebooks local groups are pretty authentic (there aren’t Avalon Park residents in them in any large quantity) and there is a lot of anger.    

I’d also argue that even with a temporary project, someone going to Avalon would change their route for 30 days.  If anything it would make the tolls more palpable knowing it’s a short term expense.   

 

[codypet]

I'm going to point out it seems the "angry" people on facebook are the same people over and over and over, and I know a number of people in the neighborhood that haven't spoken up for fear of being attacked by the anti people.  I know because I've been one of those pro people that have been called all sorts of names because I was for it.  All I've been doing it telling people to email the city.  They've personally responded to me thanking me and providing actual follow-up to details of my letter, so I know they read it.

[AmIReal]

Orlando Downtown posted a letter from Com. Sheehan in reference to the road diet. You have to go to their link and click on the "read latest edition link" to the right, scroll to page 4. Or pick up a paper copy just about anywhere downtown.

While reading it, also look at page 12 for an article on the Under I4 Project.

https://www.otownpaper.com/

 

[Jernigan]

While I don’t think the project was done correctly, Sheehan continues to come off as of touch on this

- “traffic backed up to Semoran” Holy hyperbole.   I mean there is congestion all the way through but it isn’t related to the project.  I’m sure she doesn’t frequent the area but at least do some research.

- Let’s not pit commuters against bicyclists and make room for both.....she doesn’t seem to grasp that a person is capable of making a commute trip via bicycle.

[codypet]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Orlando Downtown posted a letter from Com. Sheehan in reference to the road diet. You have to go to their link and click on the "read latest edition link" to the right, scroll to page 4. Or pick up a paper copy just about anywhere downtown.

While reading it, also look at page 12 for an article on the Under I4 Project.

https://www.otownpaper.com/

 

Interesting.  I talked to the traffic engineer who supposedly walked into every business and talked to the owner or manager about the project.  Surprised she's saying businesses weren't notified.

I live in one of the adjacent neighborhoods.   Other than a handful of very vocal people against it, most of the neighborhood I talked to about it enjoyed the project, but felt that things could be tweaked.  I would disagree with her there as well.

She's being put in a spot and playing both sides of the room.  I really wish she didn't.  Part of the importance of a study like this is to allow for the behavior to change.  She seemed to have come out the gate really quick and thrown the engineering dept under the bus and gone to the public and said its their fault and we're reverting it back.  I've worked with city transportation engineering in the past and its been sad seeing former coworkers jobs and hard work get trivialized because a handful of people got angry on Facebook.  She's right about the screaming from the margins, but I'll say my experience with people who were against the project, was they didn't was any alternative other than put it back the way it was.

Edited May 3, 2018 by codypet

[spenser1058]

Interesting that everyone's dumping on Patty when the city's own Transportation Director, Billy Hattaway, has said this was rolled out poorly.

[codypet]

20 hours ago, Jernigan said:

While I don’t think the project was done correctly, Sheehan continues to come off as of touch on this

- “traffic backed up to Semoran” Holy hyperbole.   I mean there is congestion all the way through but it isn’t related to the project.  I’m sure she doesn’t frequent the area but at least do some research.

- Let’s not pit commuters against bicyclists and make room for both.....she doesn’t seem to grasp that a person is capable of making a commute trip via bicycle.

I think the issue comes from perception.   I've had people tell me if I get hit its my fault for choosing to ride to work on a "children's toy".  That's such a close minded point of view it baffles me.  My bike commute is almost the same time in a car, and I don't have the added frustration of traffic stops.   I'll frequently catch up to cars that pass me at the next light on Livingston.  

[alex]

I don't hold Sheehan's criticism of the roll-out against her, because almost everyone agrees it could have been handled better. I just wish she would pick a side, preferably pro-road diet. She needs to say something along the lines of, "This is an important demonstration project representing the first steps towards safer, more accessible Main Street districts."

For years, Orlando has been called out in national headlines as one of the top cities for pedestrian and cyclist deaths. Our public transit is equally embarrassing. A lot of that is linked to the state and size of our roads and I think it's insane that our Commissioners don't take this as an opportunity to educate residents and try to fix this.

[HankStrong]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

I think the issue comes from perception.   I've had people tell me if I get hit its my fault for choosing to ride to work on a "children's toy".  That's such a close minded point of view it baffles me.  My bike commute is almost the same time in a car, and I don't have the added frustration of traffic stops.   I'll frequently catch up to cars that pass me at the next light on Livingston.  

My biggest problems with MANY bicyclists (obviously not all) is their absolute disregard for traffic laws, not that they are somehow inferior because it is a "children's toy" as those people have said to you.  I would love to bike to work.  My dad worked about 5 miles from my home growing up and about 8 months a year rode his bike to work and kept his car in the garage.  If it was cold or looked like rain, he'd drive.  I know my mom picked him sometimes when he was surprised by bad weather, but I respected his riding to work.

FWIW, I have that same problem with motorcyclists.  I was passed this morning by a DB on 528 who was riding between cars who were going full speed.  I understand that if traffic is stopped that bikes have special circumstances (it's a million degrees and they are in full gear OR air cooled bikes idling) where they may travel differently than us in cars BUT if we're all going full speed, going between 2 cars is flat-out idiotic and suicidal.  Now if I run over your dumb self and make you into an idiot-flavored road pizza, I have to live with that for the rest of my life.

[codypet]

11 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

My biggest problems with MANY bicyclists (obviously not all) is their absolute disregard for traffic laws, not that they are somehow inferior because it is a "children's toy" as those people have said to you.  I would love to bike to work.  My dad worked about 5 miles from my home growing up and about 8 months a year rode his bike to work and kept his car in the garage.  If it was cold or looked like rain, he'd drive.  I know my mom picked him sometimes when he was surprised by bad weather, but I respected his riding to work.

FWIW, I have that same problem with motorcyclists.  I was passed this morning by a DB on 528 who was riding between cars who were going full speed.  I understand that if traffic is stopped that bikes have special circumstances (it's a million degrees and they are in full gear OR air cooled bikes idling) where they may travel differently than us in cars BUT if we're all going full speed, going between 2 cars is flat-out idiotic and suicidal.  Now if I run over your dumb self and make you into an idiot-flavored road pizza, I have to live with that for the rest of my life.

I've heard that and 100% agree with you which is why when I'm on a bike with a small group or by myself I make a point to follow traffic laws, lights, signs etc.   I know it looks stupid for me to be sitting at the red light at Fern Creek and Livingston with noone around, but I know if I go, I'm being a hypocrite.  It is also a big reason why my wife hates critical mass because they'll flat out ignore lights and there's a few bad apples that will be jerks on bikes.  That said, I think the fact that some people breaking the law on bikes shouldn't negate the need to accommodate for them on the road.  There's a lot of jerks driving cars and like you said motorcycles.  We can't not accommodate them because there's a few bad apples.

[JFW657]

I've always preferred to ride bicycles on the sidewalks along major thoroughfares. AFAIC, anyone who insists on riding in the roadway on a bicycle just because the law says they're entitled to, is just asking to get hit.

If I was still an avid bicyclist, I'd rather see all the curbs modified at the corners and intersections, to allow a smooth transition from sidewalk to crosswalk and back to sidewalk.

Re: Curry Ford, I thought the road diet lane alteration was a bad idea and a bad fit. Curry Ford Rd is not Edgewater Dr., which is more conducive to slower vehicular traffic, bicycles and pedestrians.

Curry Ford is a highway and the vehicle traffic needs to maintain a steady flow.

[codypet]

A majority of my riding is on Bumby north toward the milk district.  You have to be on the road.  The sidewalk is barely wide enough for a wheelchair with a number of guidewires for power poles on either side.  There's a wall blocking your view of driveway traffic at the Bumby apartments, and there's also a bus bench across the sidewalk one both sides at the Marathon.  Still no bike lanes.  Riding on Primrose or Mills are the other N-S options and they're not much better.

[alex]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Curry Ford is a highway and the vehicle traffic needs to maintain a steady flow.

Curry Ford is a stroad that needs to be fixed.

[AndyPok1]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

It is also a big reason why my wife hates critical mass because they'll flat out ignore lights and there's a few bad apples that will be jerks on bikes.  That said, I think the fact that some people breaking the law on bikes shouldn't negate the need to accommodate for them on the road.  There's a lot of jerks driving cars and like you said motorcycles.  We can't not accommodate them because there's a few bad apples.

This this this.  I *despise* critical mass because it gives people who bike a bad name.  They don't want to share the road, they want to own it.

As far as when it comes to traffic laws, I obey 95% of them.  Sorry, I'm not going to come to a complete stop if there's no cars around, even if it makes me a hypocrite.  But I do rolling stops in a car too if no one is around, so I'm an equal opportunity rule-breaker.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, alex said:

Curry Ford is a stroad that needs to be fixed.

Until the entire country gets over its obsession with and addiction to cars, you can forget it. Americans want to a) drive wherever they go in the climate controlled comfort of their cars and b) get to where they're going ASAP. 

Choking off the flow of vehicular traffic with bottle necks artificially created so a handful of hobbyists, fitness buffs, people who can't afford cars and those who've lost their driving privileges can have nice, wide bike lanes to ride in, does not fit into that framework.

I'm all for forcing bikes back up on the sidewalks where they belong. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by JFW657

[aent]

16 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

This this this.  I *despise* critical mass because it gives people who bike a bad name.  They don't want to share the road, they want to own it.

As far as when it comes to traffic laws, I obey 95% of them.  Sorry, I'm not going to come to a complete stop if there's no cars around, even if it makes me a hypocrite.  But I do rolling stops in a car too if no one is around, so I'm an equal opportunity rule-breaker.

Yup, one near me refuses to use the paved bike trail next to the road because he has a right to use the road, and at the same time, ignores every single stop sign and other traffic control device. The road in question has a seperated multi use trail, a paved bike lane, and a single traffic lane in each direction, and he insists on being shocked when people swerve around him going on the wrong side of the road when he's making sure to take up an entire lane of traffic for no reason.

Also, I miss the old days where they used to use yield signs at some intersections instead of stop signs everywhere, stops are all necessary where there is visibillity issues, so like at least 50% of the time, they're wrong and unnecessary.

[dcluley98]

Bikes do not "belong" on sidewalks. Bikes on sidewalks present numerous more problems than bikes on the road. Conflicts with pedestrians/animals, speed, crosswalk interference with turning cars, infrastructure made for walkers (there's a reason they call them side"walks"), etc. 

Bikes belong on dedicated lanes separated and adjacent to the road. 

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Bikes do not "belong" on sidewalks. Bikes on sidewalks present numerous more problems than bikes on the road. Conflicts with pedestrians/animals, speed, crosswalk interference with turning cars, infrastructure made for walkers (there's a reason they call them side"walks"), etc. 

Bikes belong on dedicated lanes separated and adjacent to the road. 

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

I've ridden bicycles all over Orlando. Downtown, Winter Park, Audubon, Colonialtown, Hourglass, I-Drive, you name it. Any time I was on anything other than a residential (non-thoroughfare) street, I always rode on the sidewalk, primarily for my own safety.

Not once did I ever come close to colliding with a pedestrian or an animal or interfering with a turning automobile, something that would be just as much of an issue with a rider in a bike lane, btw. If someone cannot navigate around a person or group of people or a dog on a sidewalk, they probably shouldn't be riding a bicycle to begin with.

It's too bad that several decades ago when the major roadways around here were first being designed and built, that they didn't plan on the need for nice, wide bike lanes. If they had, it wouldn't be an issue today. But now of course, it would be prohibitively expensive to widen every road in greater Orlando just to accommodate bicycles and taking away lane width for vehicular traffic is unacceptable to the majority of drivers. So in most instances, bicycle riders will just have to make do with what we've got and try not to get creamed.

Personally, I just think that anyone who would ride a bike on a commercial roadway in Orlando, bike lane or otherwise, must have a death wish. 

[spenser1058]

I have to wonder if you have a road bike. Trying to ride on undulating, cracked sidewalks at 15-20 mph is a sure invitation to disaster.

 

[JFW657]

51 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I have to wonder if you have a road bike. Trying to ride on undulating, cracked sidewalks at 15-20 mph is a sure invitation to disaster.

Yes, I have a typical 26" general purpose Motobecane street type bicycle. 

Almost identical to this one:

More comfortable seat and I swapped the straight handlebar for one with some upswept curves, but otherwise, same bicycle. Prior to that one, I had some kind of Frankenstein bike that was a collection of parts from other bikes. Only one speed, but the rear sprocket was from a multi-speed bike so I had the chain set in a lower gear which made it very easy to peddle. Nice alloy rims like the one in the pic, too. Loved that bike but someone stole it from behind my apartment on E. Pine.

And yeah, I've ridden over some buckled concrete sections of sidewalk before, but it was never any big deal. I'd rather navigate something like that than have some huge work truck come by a little too close with something sticking off the side that knocks me face first into the curb or worse, underneath the tires.

[spenser1058]

That's a great bike but still not really built for speed like my Cannondale R400. The skinny tires (probably less than half the width of the Motobecane) on a sidewalk just aren't pleasant or practical (I used to ride from my parents' house off Good Homes Rd to Magic Kingdom in college and decided to head on into Pine Hills one afternoon for a Popeyes run. Just past Kirkman I decided to ride on the sidewalk to avoid crossing Colonial and of course immediately ran into a bump that sent me right over the handlebars. Fortunately, I was wearing my helmet. Needless to say, I've avoided sidewalks ever since. Riding to NSB a couple times a year, I truly wish we had more shoulders to ride on - Tennessee roads were good about that - but legally I have the same rights as a vehicle on the road and motorists should move to the left even as I stay to the right. It's the law.)

[JFW657]

I'm not questioning anyone's legal right to risk life and limb by putting themselves inches away from tons of fast moving steel on wheels being operated by people they don't know, I'm merely questioning the wisdom of it.

Plus, as a driver, knowing that if I'm driving along obeying the law and a bicyclist for some reason swerves or drifts into my path and I hit him, I can be sued, does not sit well with me at all.

As for what should be done by local govt to give bicycles more room, or a better riding experience, I just don't think the vast majority of commuters who use cars should be forced to sit in even worse snarled traffic because two entire lanes on a major roadway were blocked off for bicycle use to benefit a comparatively small minority. I'd support spending money to improve the sidewalks to make them smoother and wider, though.