Just Wow

[prahaboheme]

6 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Exactly.

A couple of two story, architecturally and historically insignificant buildings could not be allowed to stand in the way of the kind of development befitting that corner forever. Something had to be done and thankfully, it was. 

Those two old dime stores were not even in the same universe as the art deco treasures in Miami Beach or the eclectic classical styles found in northeastern cities, much of which actually dates back to the nineteenth century. 

Had they been on the scale of the Kress building across the street, or the Metcalf, etc., they'd still be there. 

You missed the point — or more likely ignored it. Not surprising of you.

[prahaboheme]

You’ve never actually been able to tell us why what replaced it is better (with no regard for preserving the history of the block). I do enjoy your relentless and needless defensiveness though. 
Go ahead again..

Meanwhile, since you’ve already won the debate - enjoy the current vibrancy of the block.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

You missed the point — or more likely ignored it. Not surprising of you.

Well, I get the sense that you're someone who probably doesn't like surprises, so I was just trying to be considerate.

2 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

You’ve never actually been able to tell us why what replaced it is better (with no regard for preserving the history of the block). I do enjoy your relentless and needless defensiveness though. 
Go ahead again..

Meanwhile, since you’ve already won the debate - enjoy the current vibrancy of the block.

If it's not obvious to you, then no amount of explanation would help you understand what (almost) everyone else seems to. 

Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you except that it's time to get over it and move on.  

[AmIReal]

7 hours ago, JFW657 said:

If it's not obvious to you, then no amount of explanation would help

 

9 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

You’ve never actually been able to tell us why what replaced it is better

Well, recognizing "better" is a subjective term, I'll try to give my perspective. First, there is an in use, productive building there unlike the non-used wasted block that was there.  As you mentioned previously, there is a still vacant lot just a few blocks north and that same fate could have played out here. The City had tried to get developers to do something with this property since the mid 80s and no one ever did anything with it. 

Second, with the mix of residential/ office/ retail/ entertainment, what was built there is unquestionably the best example of mixed use development in the downtown core even if some don't like the aesthetics of the building. Until they complete the CSP projects or the Magic S&ED nothing else comes close to this level of utilization.

And a few financial details that I think should not be overlooked is the tremendous amount of added tax base to the City, the added residents and jobs downtown which produce sales tax and the wealth generation for individual owners.

[JFW657]

30 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

 

Well, recognizing "better" is a subjective term, I'll try to give my perspective. First, there is an in use, productive building there unlike the non-used wasted block that was there.  As you mentioned previously, there is a still vacant lot just a few blocks north and that same fate could have played out here. The City had tried to get developers to do something with this property since the mid 80s and no one ever did anything with it. 

Second, with the mix of residential/ office/ retail/ entertainment, what was built there is unquestionably the best example of mixed use development in the downtown core even if some don't like the aesthetics of the building. Until they complete the CSP projects or the Magic S&ED nothing else comes close to this level of utilization.

And a few financial details that I think should not be overlooked is the tremendous amount of added tax base to the City, the added residents and jobs downtown which produce sales tax and the wealth generation for individual owners.

Slight correction re: bold text.

In the late 80's Jaymont Properties had very definite and concrete plans to do something there in the form of a 30 story highrise office building. It would have been an iconic building. When the city insisted that they modify their proposed design to incorporate the facades and 15' of those old 1940's storefronts into their ultra modern design, they gave the city the finger and left town. 

[prahaboheme]

9 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Well, I get the sense that you're someone who probably doesn't like surprises, so I was just trying to be considerate.

If it's not obvious to you, then no amount of explanation would help you understand what (almost) everyone else seems to. 

Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you except that it's time to get over it and move on.  

Thanks for confirming my assumption that you cannot see a net gain. 

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

 

Well, recognizing "better" is a subjective term, I'll try to give my perspective. First, there is an in use, productive building there unlike the non-used wasted block that was there.  As you mentioned previously, there is a still vacant lot just a few blocks north and that same fate could have played out here. The City had tried to get developers to do something with this property since the mid 80s and no one ever did anything with it. 

Second, with the mix of residential/ office/ retail/ entertainment, what was built there is unquestionably the best example of mixed use development in the downtown core even if some don't like the aesthetics of the building. Until they complete the CSP projects or the Magic S&ED nothing else comes close to this level of utilization.

And a few financial details that I think should not be overlooked is the tremendous amount of added tax base to the City, the added residents and jobs downtown which produce sales tax and the wealth generation for individual owners.

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for just preserving the block as it was. Prior to Buddy and Cam there was a proposal to incorporate those buildings into an upgraded, modern place that also preserved one of the very few streamline modernism buildings in O.

I guess I just don’t really think Church Street Plaza (or whatever it’s called), is a net gain.

[orlandouprise]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Slight correction re: bold text.

In the late 80's Jaymont Properties had very definite and concrete plans to do something there in the form of a 30 story highrise office building. It would have been an iconic building. When the city insisted that they modify their proposed design to incorporate the facades and 15' of those old 1940's storefronts into their ultra modern design, they gave the city the finger and left town. 

Any renderings? I would love to see what we missed out on...

[AmIReal]

41 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for just preserving the block as it was. Prior to Buddy and Cam there was a proposal to incorporate those buildings into an upgraded, modern place that also preserved one of the very few streamline modernism buildings in O.

I guess I just don’t really think Church Street Plaza (or whatever it’s called), is a net gain.

I don't recall that there was ever an actual proposal to do that. There was "hope" from some in the community, but nothing was ever submitted in the way of plans to move forward with. I'm pretty certain there was never a developer that proposed building on the Jaymont block and preserving the façade old buildings. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me.

Obviously I think it is a net gain, even if primarily in the financial component. 

[JFW657]

51 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Thanks for confirming my assumption that you cannot see a net gain. 

I didn't. Thanks for confirming my assumption that you cannot understand something (almost) everyone else does.

46 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for just preserving the block as it was. Prior to Buddy and Cam there was a proposal to incorporate those buildings into an upgraded, modern place that also preserved one of the very few streamline modernism buildings in O.

I guess I just don’t really think Church Street Plaza (or whatever it’s called), is a net gain.

So, what part of "When the city insisted that they modify their proposed design to incorporate the facades and 15' of those old 1940's storefronts into their ultra modern design, they gave the city the finger and left town." are you not able to comprehend? 

[JFW657]

1 minute ago, orlandouprise said:

Any renderings? I would love to see what we missed out on...

I had (and posted once or twice) an OS photo from a newspaper clipping, of a scale model of the proposed building with Bob Snow and a woman standing next to it, looking at it.

I searched for the pic, but as of yet, I can't find it.

Will search some more.

1 minute ago, AmIReal said:

I don't recall that there was ever an actual proposal to do that. There was "hope" from some in the community, but nothing was ever submitted in the way of plans to move forward with. I'm pretty certain there was never a developer that proposed building on the Jaymont block and preserving the façade old buildings. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me.

Obviously I think it is a net gain, even if primarily in the financial component. 

Jaymont was ready to build one.

They even built a scale model similar to the one Tradition Towers had in their sales center.

They were ready to go until the city told them they'd have to incorporate the facades and a 15' setback into the lower floors.

They told Orlando to take a hike.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for just preserving the block as it was. Prior to Buddy and Cam there was a proposal to incorporate those buildings into an upgraded, modern place that also preserved one of the very few streamline modernism buildings in O.

I guess I just don’t really think Church Street Plaza (or whatever it’s called), is a net gain.

There was also a proclamation passed by Mayor Glenda and the council to preserve them which, while not legally binding, showed a break of faith with citizens to ignore it. It’s the type of thing we see daily in DC now, breaking the norms of governance. But, given the leader who usurped those norms would take a detour to jail shortly thereafter for similar disregard of the rules, it’s probably not surprising. Of course, that little adventure probably cost him a run for higher office (can you see the ads and tweets with his mug shot?) and, hence, why he refuses to move on. The interesting thing is, he should have known better, given he had one of the highest scores recorded on the Florida bar exam. And so it goes...

@prahaboheme called it, though, the ultimate test is success or failure. That area is going nowhere fast. It’s sort of pathetic that the city which set the standard for downtown restoration in the region is going nowhere while several small towns took that early success and ran with it. 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by spenser1058

[AmIReal]

Just now, spenser1058 said:

There was also a proclamation passed by Mayor Glenda and the council to preserve them which, while not legally binding, showed a break of faith with citizens to ignore it. It’s the type of thing we see daily in DC now, breaking the norms of governance. But, given the leader who usurped those norms would take a detour to jail shortly thereafter for similar disregard of the rules, it’s probably not surprising. Of course, that little adventure probably cost him a run for higher office (can you see the ads and tweets with his mug shot?) and, hence, why he refuses to move on. The interesting thing is, he should have known better, given he had one of the highest scores recorded on the Florida bar exam. And so it goes...

The point is "not legally binding". Basically you are saying the City should be taking away the rights of someone who has legally purchased a property to legally build upon it within all legal constraints. 

7 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Jaymont was ready to build one.

Yes, Jaymont was ready to build, but not as I said with the condition of preserving the old façade. Bear in mind, this was prior to the Hood proclamation spenser mentioned. So, a developer had already abandoned the project due to the City trying to force them into the redesign and then Mayor Hood doubled down on her way out the door to pass the mess along to future administrations. Fortunately, an obviously really smart Mayor came along (as spenser verified) and was able to resolve the issue so future generations can build their history in their new place. Imagine the number of parents that will be able to tell their kids- yep, you were conceived in that building...  

 Meanwhile, as I mentioned above, the tremendous net gain in taxes allows the City to invest in things like new parks, bike trails, streetscapes, other preservation projects, etc.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, orlandouprise said:

Any renderings? I would love to see what we missed out on...

Here's a picture of the model....

It would have been slightly taller than SunTrust.

This is what we missed out on for the sake of saving two derelict rat holes just to make the grannies happy.

[JFW657]

Here is a scan of an OS article from August 1989 when the project was first proposed. I think it's readable. You might have to zoom in a little.

[AmIReal]

That is a nice find  @JFW657. One could always count on council member Butler to provide well reasoned arguments. And council member Hood's quote about property rights is a classic.

I bought some mighty sweet ties in Urban Gorilla... sadly I may still have a few laying around.

Btw, that model is hideous.

[JFW657]

6 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

That is a nice find  @JFW657. One could always count on council member Butler to provide well reasoned arguments. And council member Hood's quote about property rights is a classic.

I bought some mighty sweet ties in Urban Gorilla... sadly I may still have a few laying around.

Btw, that model is hideous.

Better than The Solaire.... 

[prahaboheme]

On 9/1/2020 at 4:36 PM, JFW657 said:

I didn't. Thanks for confirming my assumption that you cannot understand something (almost) everyone else does.

So, what part of "When the city insisted that they modify their proposed design to incorporate the facades and 15' of those old 1940's storefronts into their ultra modern design, they gave the city the finger and left town." are you not able to comprehend? 

I guess I can’t comprehend your revisionist history.

On 9/1/2020 at 5:55 PM, JFW657 said:

Here's a picture of the model....

It would have been slightly taller than SunTrust.

This is what we missed out on for the sake of saving two derelict rat holes just to make the grannies happy.

Plenty of cities incorporate their historic facades into modern developments. It’s not exactly forward thinking. 

Can’t comprehend why this is such a mental block for you. Also don’t get your aggressive, borderline bullying nature regarding opinions to the contrary.

Edited September 3, 2020 by prahaboheme

[prahaboheme]

On 9/1/2020 at 6:54 PM, AmIReal said:

That is a nice find  @JFW657. One could always count on council member Butler to provide well reasoned arguments. And council member Hood's quote about property rights is a classic.

I bought some mighty sweet ties in Urban Gorilla... sadly I may still have a few laying around.

Btw, that model is hideous.

Yes it was hideous and the city asked for major revisions including facade preservation of McCorys and Woolworth.

The proposal didn’t die because the developer gave the middle finger to the city for making demands, it wasn’t a realistic proposal at the time given the economy.

Nothing “iconic” about it.

[JFW657]

9 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

I guess I can’t comprehend your revisionist history.

Plenty of cities incorporate their historic facades into modern developments. It’s not exactly forward thinking. 

Can’t comprehend why this is such a mental block for you. Also don’t get your aggressive, borderline bullying nature regarding opinions to the contrary.

You're projecting. 

9 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Yes it was hideous and the city asked for major revisions including facade preservation of McCorys and Woolworth.

The proposal didn’t die because the developer gave the middle finger to the city for making demands, it wasn’t a realistic proposal at the time given the economy.

Nothing “iconic” about it.

Your opinion.

Also don’t get your aggressive, borderline bullying nature regarding opinions to the contrary.

.

Edited September 3, 2020 by JFW657

[prahaboheme]

39 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

You're projecting. 

Your opinion.

Also don’t get your aggressive, borderline bullying nature regarding opinions to the contrary.

.

You’ve been blocked.

[JFW657]

1 minute ago, prahaboheme said:

You’ve been blocked.

  Thank you!!! 

[spenser1058]

It’s International Bacon Day - oink! Let’s all go celebrate with a Bacon Cheese Burger. We could go to Wendy’s- well, except the AdventHealth one on N. Orange Ave. Yummy!

[dcluley98]

My Cholesterol is too damn high!

 

Can I just smell it cooking though? 

[spenser1058]

Downtowns that are working have an energy about them. I’ve used Winter Garden as an example, even though the scale is different, because the energy is the same.

If you prefer something larger, there’s St. Pete. That turnaround was remarkable. Most importantly, everyone wanted to be a part of it. If you talk to folks that live in places like that or watch their you YouTube posts, you pick up that excitement.

Although not always, it’s most often the case that kind of energy bubbles up when people are involved at a grassroots level to restore something that had fallen. That organic type of growth builds ownership. It certainly was the case with turning around St. Pete, initially as an in your face response  to the tired confirmity the Grumpy Old Men had enforced for so long.

In Winter Garden, it was a community effort from the wealthiest old guard members of the establishment to Disney cast members who bought in due to the low prices of older bungalows and proximity to work and teenagers who were just amazed their tiny little town suddenly became cool.

Downtown Orlando first felt like that after 14 years of Mayor Carl worrying more about removing parking meters downtown and encouraging federal grants for the awful shape the core was in.

It led to a lot of excitement that exploded with the all too brief music scene downtown, which turned out to be too much of a good thing. Mayor Glenda tried to dial that back but got caught up in the maelstrom of light rail. That led things to sit, although she did solidify the in town neighborhoods as communities that would fight encroachment from those who wanted to pull apart the neighborhoods Mayor Bill saved from the developers and they invested in with dollars and sweat equity.

Then Buddy arrived and his actions from the beginning were that developers were going to make downtown exciting. That rarely happens because developers build buildings, they don’t build community.

The downtowns that work have places with appropriate scale for people. The Plaza obliterated that (for that matter, so did 55 West). Someone asked why Winter Garden works - all you have to do is compare how active Plant St. is with how dead Church Street and the adjoining blocks of Orange Ave to see. Plant St. isn’t emptying out or having constant turnover of its storefronts like downtown Orlando is today.

Most of all, the downtowns that work keep thinking of ways to make themselves vibrant and the leaders participate in that and make it happen. For some reason, Orlando City Hall says nothing about the doldrums in which the streets find themselves. You can look through 17 years of council minutes and state of downtown speeches and it is though the historic core that brought downtown back to life by its restoration doesn’t exist. The lack of excitement and interest is so complete even the developers complained about it.

In short, the difference is in two things: a VISION of what makes a downtown interesting to all kinds of people from early morning to late evening and CARING about a shared interest in the micro community you’re building. Both of those things are lacking right now and it’s easy to tell.