Kissimmee | St. Cloud | Celebration

[spenser1058]

13 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Polk was the larger County population wise pre-Disney I believe? Osceola was largely rural — cattle communities.  Lakeland, Haines City, Auburndale, etc well established at the time.  In a sense I can see why the two counties have grown outward in different ways.

 

The identity of Osceola has long been linked to Orlando’s primary industry whereas Polk seemed to exist outside the Orlando ether at least until the expansion of Four Corners and Davenport.

If you’re old enough to remember the old license plate system, the first one or two digits denoted your county based on its population when the system was created (in the ‘20’s or 30’s, maybe?)

Interestingly, Polk was #5 and Orange #7. So, Polk was, at least at one point, bigger than we are. It was also quite prosperous thanks not only to citrus but also phosphate mining.

My guess is the population grew there because those industries required more workers than ranching did In Osceola but that is just a guess.

Polk also had world-class tourism (for the time) with things like Bok Tower and Cypress Gardens.

I wrote a paper for an econ class comparing Orange and Polk counties but didn’t include Osceola at the time. It would be a fun topic (yes, my nerdiness is well-established).

[prahaboheme]

Update on NeoCity:

https://www.aroundosceola.com/news/desantis-comes-neocity-awards-97-million-two-local-programs

[prahaboheme]

The long awaited Mosaic at Lake Toho is well into construction — a mixed use development bringing +300 units to downtown Kissimmee. Steps from Sunrail, the Lakefront, Main Street / Broadway.

Plus a few pictures from Lakefront Park — Orlando metros best lakefront? 

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

The long awaited Mosaic at Lake Toho is well into construction — a mixed use development bringing +300 units to downtown Kissimmee. Steps from Sunrail, the Lakefront, Main Street / Broadway.

Plus a few pictures from Lakefront Park — Orlando metros best lakefront? 

Pretty cool and it’s a bonus that the Sunrail is very close by. But I still think Sanford’s waterfront is better.

[prahaboheme]

Makinson Hardware, Florida’s oldest hardware store, closed shop late 2021. It was in operation in downtown Kissimmee for 130+ years, opening in 1884.

While a loss to Kissimmee and Florida’s heritage as a whole, a positive note is that the building has been bought by another local resident who is restoring the entire block and bringing it back to its former glory. It will become a restaurant / bar.

This facade was covered up in metal for nearly 50 years:

This is how it looked before:

Edited February 6, 2022 by prahaboheme

[jgardnerucf]

.

Edited February 6, 2022 by jgardnerucf
.

[codypet]

On 2/6/2022 at 4:45 AM, prahaboheme said:

Makinson Hardware, Florida’s oldest hardware store, closed shop late 2021. It was in operation in downtown Kissimmee for 130+ years, opening in 1884.

While a loss to Kissimmee and Florida’s heritage as a whole, a positive note is that the building has been bought by another local resident who is restoring the entire block and bringing it back to its former glory. It will become a restaurant / bar.

This facade was covered up in metal for nearly 50 years:

This is how it looked before:

Whoa!  Bummer! That is some lost Cattle Heritage!

That said what a gem of brickwork, paint and windows under that façade.  What were they thinking in the 70's to cover all these up on all these beautiful buildings. 

This is exactly why I think Sunrail's schedule needs an increase in frequency.  Downtown Kissimmee I would predict would have an insane resurgence.  

Edited February 7, 2022 by codypet

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

Whoa!  Bummer!

That said what a gem of brickwork, paint and windows under that façade.  What were they thinking in the 70's to cover all these up on all these beautiful buildings. 

This is exactly why I think Sunrail's schedule needs an increase in frequency.  Downtown Kissimmee I would predict would have an insane resurgence.  

That movement actually began in the ‘50’s (it was nicknamed “eisenhowering”) and the idea was to give downtown stores a more modern look to compete with the malls (showing once again it’s better to accentuate your strengths rather than to pretend to be someone else as it didn’t really work). It also was the zeitgeist that everything be new and modern in the dawn of the Space Age (tail fins, anyone?)

To be fair, some of the buildings hadn’t been maintained much beginning with the crash of the Florida land boom in 1926, followed by the Great Depression in the ‘30’s, then rationing and material shortages caused by WWII in the ‘40’s. By the ‘50’s, more than a few structures were pretty sad.

In Orlando, Ivey’s and Dickson & Ives both went the metal route. Sears opted for a light blue vinyl composite concoction (interestingly, J.C. Penney, new in 1960, saw no need and just went with a tan brick facade used on the entire building). When Mayor Bill set about restoring downtown in the ‘80’s and the metal was removed from One and Two South Orange, people were aghast they ever did that (especially covering up the terra cotta decorative work on D&I).

Edited February 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

On 2/5/2022 at 2:16 PM, Uncommon said:

Pretty cool and it’s a bonus that the Sunrail is very close by. But I still think Sanford’s waterfront is better.

I agree about Sanford waterfront.

It’s not really in the same league as an area Lakefront (which is more of what I was referring to). Sanford’s Riverwalk will be even better and more activated should the Heritage Park development come to realization. 

[spenser1058]

@klstorey recently did an excellent article about a cruise company greatly expanding long-distance river cruises in the US.

Most importantly for us, they are adding new ships that can operate on rivers with a relatively shallow draft.

That would open open up cruises on the St Johns (back to the 1800’s we go!) that could travel from Jacksonville to Sanford. The General may yet get the last laugh…

https://m.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2022/01/26/thanks-to-a-newly-designed-cruise-ship-florida-may-soon-be-a-major-player-in-river-cruises

From The Orlando Weekly

Note to @prahaboheme: does the Kissimmee River end up anywhere that might make such a cruise plausible heading south? In all the stories about its restoration, I never thought about it. I’m guessing it goes to Lake O and maybe there would be access to South or SW Florida from there or maybe just venture toward Everglades National Park?
 

Edited February 7, 2022 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

@klstorey recently did an excellent article about a cruise company greatly expanding long-distance river cruises in the US.

Most importantly for us, they are adding new ships that can operate on rivers with a relatively shallow draft.

That would open open up cruises on the St Johns (back to the 1800’s we go!) that could travel from Jacksonville to Sanford. The General may yet get the last laugh…

https://m.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2022/01/26/thanks-to-a-newly-designed-cruise-ship-florida-may-soon-be-a-major-player-in-river-cruises

From The Orlando Weekly

Note to @prahaboheme: does the Kissimmee River end up anywhere that might make such a cruise plausible heading south? In all the stories about its restoration, I never thought about it. I’m guessing it goes to Lake O and maybe there would be access to South or SW Florida from there or maybe just venture toward Everglades National Park?
 

Good question about the Kissimmee River restoration — are any private vessels allowed on the river right now during the restoration process which has been nothing short of remarkable?
 

I believe that Lake Toho is deepest at 13 feet and on average 5 feet deep, so relatively shallow. Historically speaking, riverboats would vessel from Lake Toho down to O.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by prahaboheme

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

Whoa!  Bummer! That is some lost Cattle Heritage!

That said what a gem of brickwork, paint and windows under that façade.  What were they thinking in the 70's to cover all these up on all these beautiful buildings. 

This is exactly why I think Sunrail's schedule needs an increase in frequency.  Downtown Kissimmee I would predict would have an insane resurgence.  

That brickwork on the cornice is incredible, and since Sanford was mentioned, it has a sibling there:

 

[Alleri459]

Haven't gone to check out the Sanford Riverfront for comparisons, but I will say downtown Kissimmee has transformed and continues to do so. A few things come  to mind, even though there is plenty of room for improvement:

• The lakefront park expansion and how busy it gets all day and late into the evening, even consistently drawing residents from southernmost areas of Orange County 
• Transit connectivity with Lynx routes, Greyhound, Amtrak all stopping within proximity to the Sunrail Station (if only there was more frequency/late service).
• More housing coming along (although it could still use way more).
• City and County Services, Library close by.
• The City has embraced both it's history and what it is today (the good and the not-so-good). Recognizing their limitations yet making improvements slowly but surely 

Edited February 13, 2022 by aleonrivera

[prahaboheme]

Kissimmee has tapped NY developer SCIAME to buildout the first phase of NeoCity -- why this is important:

- the first phase of NeoCity includes a long await new performing arts center (I would have preferred they build the arts center in the downtown area but this is still a BIG improvement over the current arts center on 192)

- SCIAME has a history of building PACs and mixed-use facilities including the Shed at Hudson Yards and the PAC at the WTC

- After what seemed like a stalled development, NeoCity seems to be aligning it self with the right people to get the town center off the ground.  It's also nice to see development in the metro that doesn't include a master plan involving Baker Barrios.

New York developer takes the reins of NeoCity town center

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/osceola-county-developments/gs-news-dsus-neocity-extension-20220405-byhmgbm6jrajvher33vsd4bjwe-story.html#nt=pf-double chain~gs-top-stories~feed-driven flex feature~automated~gs-lead-story~BYHMGBM6JRAJVHER33VSD4BJWE~1~1~1~6~art yes

Edited April 6, 2022 by prahaboheme

[spenser1058]

I guess Kissimmee doesn’t require visors like Orlando does (that’s not the whole story of how they came to be but visors are the cheap way out for developers). You just can’t have a visor without Baker  Barrios!

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Kissimmee has tapped NY developer SCIAME to buildout the first phase of NeoCity -- why this is important:

- the first phase of NeoCity includes a long await new performing arts center (I would have preferred they build the arts center in the downtown area but this is still a BIG improvement over the current arts center on 192)

- SCIAME has a history of building PACs and mixed-use facilities including the Shed at Hudson Yards and the PAC at the WTC

- After what seemed like a stalled development, NeoCity seems to be aligning it self with the right people to get the town center off the ground.  It's also nice to see development in the metro that doesn't include a master plan involving Baker Barrios.

New York developer takes the reins of NeoCity town center

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/osceola-county-developments/gs-news-dsus-neocity-extension-20220405-byhmgbm6jrajvher33vsd4bjwe-story.html#nt=pf-double chain~gs-top-stories~feed-driven flex feature~automated~gs-lead-story~BYHMGBM6JRAJVHER33VSD4BJWE~1~1~1~6~art yes

that's fantastic.  the PAC at WTC, is that the Calatrava structure or is that a mini-mall?  Either way, both projects, WTC and Hudson are ultra hardcore projects.

...and I bet you they are looking at Medical City and Tavistock as a "standard" to compare and contrast against, and maybe in a way compete with...

Edited April 6, 2022 by jrs2

[jack]

4 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Kissimmee has tapped NY developer SCIAME to buildout the first phase of NeoCity -- why this is important:

- the first phase of NeoCity includes a long await new performing arts center (I would have preferred they build the arts center in the downtown area but this is still a BIG improvement over the current arts center on 192)

- SCIAME has a history of building PACs and mixed-use facilities including the Shed at Hudson Yards and the PAC at the WTC

- After what seemed like a stalled development, NeoCity seems to be aligning it self with the right people to get the town center off the ground.  It's also nice to see development in the metro that doesn't include a master plan involving Baker Barrios.

New York developer takes the reins of NeoCity town center

https://www.growthspotter.com/news/osceola-county-developments/gs-news-dsus-neocity-extension-20220405-byhmgbm6jrajvher33vsd4bjwe-story.html#nt=pf-double chain~gs-top-stories~feed-driven flex feature~automated~gs-lead-story~BYHMGBM6JRAJVHER33VSD4BJWE~1~1~1~6~art yes

So are they the sponsor? Because Growthspotter calls them a developer and construction firm in different parts of the article. Also, the projects mentioned are where they provided construction management services. 

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

that's fantastic.  the PAC at WTC, is that the Calatrava structure or is that a mini-mall?  Either way, both projects, WTC and Hudson are ultra hardcore projects.

...and I bet you they are looking at Medical City and Tavistock as a "standard" to compare and contrast against, and maybe in a way compete with...

Calatrava designed the subway stop at WTC, if I recall -- go to SCIAME portfolio for details:  https://sciame.com/

If Medical City is the standard, they would already run circles around it.

1 hour ago, jack said:

So are they the sponsor? Because Growthspotter calls them a developer and construction firm in different parts of the article. Also, the projects mentioned are where they provided construction management services. 

General contractor who have gone into investment with the Korean firm who were funding the town center however did not have the local footprint to realize the development.

[spenser1058]

Kissimmee Prairie Preserve State Park - Florida’s first designated dark sky park: 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/central-florida-explorer/os-et-kissimmee-prairie-preserve-stargazers-paradise-central-florida-20220410-uj4psh27tresrb3waz5owy2jsm-story.html

From The Sentinel 

Aaaaah, to see stars again!
 

[prahaboheme]

Aerial view of the Mosaic apts at Lake Toho in downtown Kissimmee — adjacent to Sunrail - Amtrak - Lynx station.

courtesy of NDC construction (couldn’t figure out how to link it)

[JFW657]

Is Eastern Osceola County around St. Cloud the next Paradise lost?

Being reported on ch 9:

St. Cloud set for massive population increase as developers buy up land

 

ST. CLOUD, Fla. — The city of St. Cloud has seen massive population growth over the past 20 years.

Since 2003, the population has already doubled and according to a new study, the city is expected to add tens of thousands of people over the next few years.

One of the main reasons for this massive growth is that Osceola County is rich with undeveloped land.

Some problems that the city faces are there aren’t enough schools, office space, services or roads to handle the influx of people, and the biggest obstacle is transportation.

Annexation of those unincorporated areas could mean the city would need more than 30 new parks, 20 more shopping centers and 12 new fire stations.

The fire chief said in just the next five years the department will need to hire 60 new personnel.

The police force will have to at least double.

Story w/video report:

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/osceola-county/st-cloud-set-massive-population-increase-developers-buy-up-land/KIZYKXUDDVABPK2PCNHBF743EM/ 

[Uncommon]

54 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Is Eastern Osceola County around St. Cloud the next Paradise lost?

Being reported on ch 9:

St. Cloud set for massive population increase as developers buy up land

 

ST. CLOUD, Fla. — The city of St. Cloud has seen massive population growth over the past 20 years.

Since 2003, the population has already doubled and according to a new study, the city is expected to add tens of thousands of people over the next few years.

One of the main reasons for this massive growth is that Osceola County is rich with undeveloped land.

Some problems that the city faces are there aren’t enough schools, office space, services or roads to handle the influx of people, and the biggest obstacle is transportation.

Annexation of those unincorporated areas could mean the city would need more than 30 new parks, 20 more shopping centers and 12 new fire stations.

The fire chief said in just the next five years the department will need to hire 60 new personnel.

The police force will have to at least double.

Story w/video report:

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/osceola-county/st-cloud-set-massive-population-increase-developers-buy-up-land/KIZYKXUDDVABPK2PCNHBF743EM/ 

God I hope not. I just closed on a house in downtown St. Cloud. I’m hoping for a Winter Garden-like total revitalization (which seems to be well underway).

Edited June 21, 2022 by Uncommon

[spenser1058]

After Don Reid Ford was sold, I took my car out to Kisselback in St. Cloud for service a few times because I had met him a few times over the years when my sister was his next-door neighbor in Windermere (he was another spin-off from First Team Management after Don Mealey sold to AutoNation).

I was gobsmacked by all the growth out there. Sadly, it was mostly sprawl but that’s our lot these days. Hopefully, the city will be as successful as WG has been in preserving what’s always been an interesting downtown.

There are some huge landowners in East Orange and Osceola (like the Mormons - after some large land purchases in the Panhandle, I believe they’re now the state’s biggest landholder) who’ve been sitting on thousands of acres for years and are only just beginning to monetize them. We can only hope they decide to make long-term higher quality investments in those properties moving forward. 

At one point there was a desire to keep growth out that way in check as some of that land is quite environmentally sensitive, but those days seem long gone and before you know it the sprawl is likely to make it all the way to the Brevard County line.
 

Edited June 21, 2022 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

God I hope not. I just closed on a house in downtown St. Cloud. I’m hoping for a Winter Garden-like total revitalization (which seems to be well underway).

The owners of Breeze in downtown St Cloud are friends of mine.  They’ve had a lot of success with their two locations (the other which is in downtown Kissimmee) that there are plans in the works to open another location in Melbourne.

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

At one point there was a desire to keep growth out that way in check as some of that land is quite environmentally sensitive, but those days seem long gone and before you know it the sprawl is likely to make it all the way to the Brevard County line.

Any time I come to grips with such realizations, I comfort myself with the notion that the human race probably doesn't have all that much longer to go before we drive ourselves to extinction.

Whereupon mother nature will take over again and in her own sweet time, over tens of thousands of years, heal herself, undo all the harm we've done to her and reclaim everything we've destroyed.