SouthEnd "Gold District"

[jjwilli]

Sure this is a NIMBY move because this does not belong in their backyard. Yes, the original proposal was way back in the early 2000s before the blue line completely changed the trajectory of this area. Also, the size of the planned facility has drastically increased from the original proposal. Places like Frothy Beard most likely would be claimed under eminent domain and demolished when under the original proposal that was not the case.

The Wilmore neighborhood had a few issues with the original proposal but most of those had to do with the train washing facility that would have been on the neighborhood side of Summit. The number of train crossings (horns / noise / diverted traffic) across Summit would have greatly increased and the washing facility was planned on the most toxic land on that parcel. NCDOT signaled to the neighborhood that the train washing facility was removed from the plan and any opposition went away. Now they are back with an even larger proposal in an area that has drastically changed in the last 5 years. I’m tired of this area being the punching bag for NCDOT over the past 50 years.

The new needs are too great for the area they originally planned for and they should go back to the drawing board for a new location.  I am biased but the airport seems like a great end destination / starting point for the Piedmont and Red lines and this facility should be out there.

[ajfunder]

11 hours ago, michaelef said:

New NIMBY alert

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cy1AJNXrRKv/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

These facilities need to be near the point of utilization. This has been planned for over two decades. Ultimately, if we want robust passenger rail, this is the most logical site for Gateway Station access. Not a single train has to touch NS to get into the station. 
 

Ultimately, these shops are fairly contained and most of the heavy work is done indoors anyways. there is definitely a lot of fear mongering in that post. These passenger facilities are usually incredibly well kept.

Amtrak’s Holgate facility in Seattle, or Chicago Union Station shops are similar. When trains go out of service, they need to be able to easily clear the platforms for other revenue trains and make room for trains going in service. The ingress, egress to the shop facility is critical to making the two platforms at CGS work effectively especially as passenger rail continues to grow.

[AltNative]

What's going on in Wilmore? There's a disproportionate number of homes sitting for sale. Has the encroaching noisy nightlife or this planned rail facility turned off potential buyers? It seems like something has changed recently

[CLT2014]

5 hours ago, AltNative said:

What's going on in Wilmore? There's a disproportionate number of homes sitting for sale. Has the encroaching noisy nightlife or this planned rail facility turned off potential buyers? It seems like something has changed recently

8% mortgage rates seems to be slowing things down fast in many sub-markets across Charlotte. The jump from 7% to 8% rates results in about a 11% increase ($500 a month) in principal & interest on a $800,000 house at 20% down. If people were already stretching to try to afford houses, this jump in rates just pushes more people down in price point.

People that had a budget of $800,000 maximum now have a budget of about $720,000 max to have the same mortgage payment prior to rates moving from 7% to 8%. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by CLT2014

[QCxpat]

Charlotte Axios 10/26/2023 - "Massive rail facility would stifle South End's growth, opponents say" by Alexandria Sands

Excerpts:  "NCDOT faces resistance as it pushes forward on expanding its Charlotte Passenger Rail Facility. It says the expansion of the industrial land it already owns is necessary to support the Charlotte Gateway Station, a planned transportation hub at West Trade and Graham streets."  "Opponents say the expansive project would divide the city like construction of highways did in the 1950s-1970s."  "It would surround a crucial artery, Summit Avenue, that links South End to a future 55-acre, mixed-use destination called the Iron District, where Charlotte Pipe & Foundry currently is."  "NCDOT says the Charlotte Passenger Rail Facility will support bringing first-class passenger rail to Uptown.  They’re trying to align the timing with the Charlotte Gateway Station and the delivery of new trains in 2027, Jason Orthner, director of the rail division, tells Axios."  “Charlotte is currently our busiest market in the system today and serves as the anchor, the endpoint for southbound train services,” Orthner says.  “In the future, it’s going to be even more important.”  

“NCDOT is still coordinating with stakeholders and working through optimization and minimization of the facility footprint and required property,” according to the department."  "But nearby property owners say the conceptual maps are alarming. They show the majority of the planned expansion would go on 18 acres — owned by an entity called White Consolidated Industries— that backs up to homes."  NCDOT would also need to acquire many historic properties, according to the map’s acquisition matrix. They include Frothy Beard Brewing Compapny, H&S Roofing, 1216 and 1220 South Graham Street, and 501 Penman Street. Providence Group Capital is planning a high-density mixed-use development on a potentially impacted site at the corner of Mint and Winona streets."  "“Our quest has been to give people … a glimpse into Charlotte’s past,” says Jim Whiteside, who owns Frothy Beard’s building. “One of the things that really hurts is to see the callous and insensitive position that the North Carolina railroad has created for us by just dumping this ugly, greasy train maintenance facility in our backyard.” "Neighbors and groups, including the Gold District board and Wilmore Neighborhood Association, are concerned the facility will be noisy and produce harmful and unhealthy emissions. They are pushing for NCDOT to relocate the facility to a different location, such as the airport."

"Jason Orthner says this location is one of the few places that would connect to the Gateway Station and not conflict with freight train operations."  "The type of facility that we are building is modern, and the types of trains we’re talking about are super quiet,” Orthner says. “We’re not talking about an old freight yard.”  "The new trains will be a European style, he says, “where you can flow freely between the cars. They’re light and bright. Lots of technology on board. Super good ride quality. Super-efficient train sets.”

"NCDOT is reaching out to communities, businesses and stakeholders “very, very soon,” Orthner says, as part of its public engagement process for projects."  "In the meantime, residents and property owners are hosting a community meeting at 5:30pm today (Thursday) at Frothy Beard."

"This map was obtained by the Wilmore Neighborhood Association and shared with Axios.  NCDOT confirms this is “an early, conceptual version of the plan” for the expansion."

Photo: Alexandria Sands/Axios

Link:  https://charlotte.axios.com/342686/massive-rail-facility-would-stifle-south-ends-growth-opponents-say/

Edited October 27, 2023 by QCxpat

[videtur quam contuor]

2 cash sales on my block last 4 months. Individual owners, not institutional. There is a lot of money sloshing around here. 585k-790k price.

On 10/26/2023 at 2:15 PM, CLT2014 said:

8% mortgage rates seems to be slowing things down fast in many sub-markets across Charlotte. The jump from 7% to 8% rates results in about a 11% increase ($500 a month) in principal & interest on a $800,000 house at 20% down. If people were already stretching to try to afford houses, this jump in rates just pushes more people down in price point.

People that had a budget of $800,000 maximum now have a budget of about $720,000 max to have the same mortgage payment prior to rates moving from 7% to 8%. 

 

[kermit]

28 minutes ago, QCxpat said:

  "Opponents say the expansive project would divide the city like construction of highways did in the 1950s-1970s."  "It would surround a crucial artery, Summit Avenue, that links South End to a future 55-acre, mixed-use destination called the Iron District, where Charlotte Pipe & Foundry currently is." 

“NCDOT is still coordinating with stakeholders and working through optimization and minimization of the facility footprint and required property,” according to the department."  "But nearby property owners say the conceptual maps are alarming. They show the majority of the planned expansion would go on 18 acres — owned by an entity called White Consolidated Industries— that backs up to homes."  NCDOT would also need to acquire many historic properties, according to the map’s acquisition matrix.

I don't really understand the logic of the 'divide the city' argument. The NS double track mainline is already there and it is not going anywhere, so the city is already divided on this axis. While the plan indicates there will be a couple more rail crossings of summit added, these will be very slow speed moves, and just a few times per day. Way less impact and danger than an LRT crossing due to lower speeds.

Its also worth keeping in mind that the land to the West of Summit is severely contaminated thanks to the bleaching mill that sat there until the 1980s (I believe) -- it is unlikely to ever be useful for residential. This is doubly true since the parcel is wedged between a busy mainline rail track and I-77. 

Finally, I lol'd the the historic building pearl clutching. This is Charlotte after all, just look at Wilmore and Dilworth to see how little anyone in this town cares about historic preservation. At least this project improves mobility and reduces some carbon outputs. Most historic buildings in this town get torn down to accommodate $25,000 patio sets and to build big blank walls to accommodate 70 inch flat screens. 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

My memory from the early 1970's was that the property across Summit (west of the project) was Whitin Textile Machinery. I knew the daughter of the Whitin family owners at that time. I cannot recall a bleachery. Nonetheless soil issues may be involved. 

It is hard to imagine, even with my memory, how many textile, textile supporting, textile adjacent businesses were in our area and most of them family owned from that time and before

[kermit]

16 hours ago, videtur quam contuor said:

My memory from the early 1970's was that the property across Summit (west of the project) was Whitin Textile Machinery. I knew the daughter of the Whitin family owners at that time. I cannot recall a bleachery. Nonetheless soil issues may be involved. 

It is hard to imagine, even with my memory, how many textile, textile supporting, textile adjacent businesses were in our area and most of them family owned from that time and before

Hmmm, this may be a case of me misremembering about the bleachery. I think I remember looking at a Sanbourne Map of the site which specified that. Unfortunately I can’t find that particular plate at the moment to verify. You can go to Polaris and it shows the parcel to be a MPL site which indicates it is on the “Mecklenburg Priority List” for remediation, but provides very little additional info. Last time I paid attention to it there was active groundwater monitoring happening on the site.

[Hushpuppy321]

I think the NCDOT Railyard is needed and with it being planned for a desolate stretch between I-77 and the existing Freightline, I think it’s the best possible place for it to support future Gateway Station Operations.

[15895]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:34 PM, kermit said:

I don't really understand the logic of the 'divide the city' argument. The NS double track mainline is already there and it is not going anywhere, so the city is already divided on this axis. While the plan indicates there will be a couple more rail crossings of summit added, these will be very slow speed moves, and just a few times per day. Way less impact and danger than an LRT crossing due to lower speeds.

Its also worth keeping in mind that the land to the West of Summit is severely contaminated thanks to the bleaching mill that sat there until the 1980s (I believe) -- it is unlikely to ever be useful for residential. This is doubly true since the parcel is wedged between a busy mainline rail track and I-77. 

Finally, I lol'd the the historic building pearl clutching. This is Charlotte after all, just look at Wilmore and Dilworth to see how little anyone in this town cares about historic preservation. At least this project improves mobility and reduces some carbon outputs. Most historic buildings in this town get torn down to accommodate $25,000 patio sets and to build big blank walls to accommodate 70 inch flat screens. 

 

In Charlotte, NIMBY’s are very vocal about what they want (as pretty much all NIMBY’s are everywhere).  Being vocal surprisingly works in local politics. At the same time, most of the pro-urban folks seem to go with the flow for fear nothing at all gets built in the city. I haven’t really seen activist or pro-urban folks get riled up other than in NoDa. NoDa has some fierce & a pretty large base of pro-urban residents who are going to make sure what gets built in their neighborhood is to their liking. 

It’s this weird dynamic where common-sense progress is blocked by NIMBY’s even if it doesn’t affect them & it has zero to do with historical preservations or neighborhood character etc. as evidenced  by their giant wacky McMansions towering over the older Bungalows in the neighborhood. And on the other hand the Broader Urbanist community doesn’t really oppose things like Hearst Tower being ruined with the Truist logo, so many historical things being knocked down (the buildings where Dimensional Place is, Tryon House & the other buildings on North Tryon, Polk Park demolished at Trade/Tryon, Polk Building at 500 West Trade demolished, potentially getting rid of Marshall Park, etc). Again, NoDa being an exception. 

We can’t build nice apartments on a ghetto dilapidated gas station that no longer sells gas because it’s a historical neighborhood but let’s tear down Polk Park and then finalize some plans on what can replace it. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[QCxpat]

Today 8:45 a.m.  -  Aspen Heights, working on the 7th floor of the 17-story apartment tower, height: 226 ft./68.8 m.

Edited October 29, 2023 by QCxpat

[KJHburg]

Can someone explain the type of construction on this new apartment tower on W Morehead?  is it steel framing as it is what 17 stories? It is being done somewhat differently than other high rise apartment towers around here. 

[JRCLT]

57 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Can someone explain the type of construction on this new apartment tower on W Morehead?  is it steel framing as it is what 17 stories? It is being done somewhat differently than other high rise apartment towers around here. 

Similar to the construction of Lowe’s Tech with the concrete deck and steel frame above. My guess is Steel has dropped in price in 2022 by a not so insignificant amount. They probably chose it because it was economical and would allow for those heights as opposed to wood.  Steel is also a much faster build method so that combination might have been attractive.

[KJHburg]

9 minutes ago, JRCLT said:

Similar to the construction of Lowe’s Tech with the concrete deck and steel frame above. My guess is Steel has dropped in price in 2022 by a not so insignificant amount. They probably chose it because it was economical and would allow for those heights as opposed to wood.  Steel is also a much faster build method so that combination might have been attractive.

thanks for so many high rise residential towers are poured concrete.   

[JRCLT]

11 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

thanks for so many high rise residential towers are poured concrete.   

Yeah…not entirely sure why they chose to go with it!

[CLT Development]

17 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Can someone explain the type of construction on this new apartment tower on W Morehead?  is it steel framing as it is what 17 stories? It is being done somewhat differently than other high rise apartment towers around here. 

I actually think this is structural cold-formed steel, which is more common in hotels. It it significantly lighter guage than other steel towers I've seen and being built in a much different manner.

[BJKM]

[Norm2]

I hope to see a little more height in the Gold District at some point. The Dilworth side of Morehead is getting all of the love in regards to height 

[ArchiCLT]

[KJHburg]

NC DOT stance on this rail maintenance yard in this Axios article.  

Is it worth the "tremendous risk" to move NCDOT’s South End train facility? - Axios Charlotte

[kermit]

22 hours ago, KJHburg said:

NC DOT stance on this rail maintenance yard in this Axios article.  

Is it worth the "tremendous risk" to move NCDOT’s South End train facility? - Axios Charlotte

^ the $150+ million cost to relocate this maintenance facility is not an exaggeration. But that money would probably buy a dedicated passenger track from Gateway to the airport that could serve a maintenance yard as well as an airport people mover station for Piedmont trains (and this track would need to be built for Atlanta HSR service anyway).

Having said that, as a nearby resident I think the yard, and its planned expansion are (will be) much lower impact that they are made out to be due to the existing topography, interstate, a mainline railroad, and the undramatic externalities that will be produced. The maintenance yard in Raleigh is (more or less) adjacent to Glenwood and Seaboard Station (what do they call this area?)  and spitting distance to Five Points and seems to not to have generated any NIMBY fury. But if the Charlotte NIMBY’s want to cough up $150 mill from bake sales and fundraisers at Frothy Beard then we could build something better.

Edited November 14, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Other than Wilmore homes all other housing nearby was built more recently in that Gold district area and comprises of apartments and some for sale townhomes which are closer to noisy I-277.  I think they said most work would be inside buildings not laying out in a train yard. 

[KJHburg]

aerial Gold district shots of the various new apartment complexes.  

[BJKM]