Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Dale]

^ Where is that ?

[nonillogical]

Wouldn't an indoor mall be the absolute death knell for the kind of street-facing retail uptown that we all want to see? I'd rather go another decade with only piecemeal retail development waiting for that one big anchor to bite than to see it all in an enclosed building tomorrow. 

[15895]

4 minutes ago, nonillogical said:

Wouldn't an indoor mall be the absolute death knell for the kind of street-facing retail uptown that we all want to see? I'd rather go another decade with only piecemeal retail development waiting for that one big anchor to bite than to see it all in an enclosed building tomorrow. 

Will piece meal retail draw in folks from the surrounding neighborhoods to come uptown?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Dale said:

^ Where is that ?

Boca Raton 

[Dale]

Seriously ? Last place I would have guessed.

[videtur quam contuor]

I note that the City Creek Center was developed with the significant assistance of the LDS Church. Also a Marriott hotel there in the development is a company owned by LDS family. These issues make any development in SLC achievable and attractive. Local government in SLC stays out of the way of such decisions. Is there another comparison to any development or developer, anywhere?

[Silicon Dogwoods]

13 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

I note that the City Creek Center was developed with the significant assistance of the LDS Church. Also a Marriott hotel there in the development is a company owned by LDS family. These issues make any development in SLC achievable and attractive. Local government in SLC stays out of the way of such decisions. Is there another comparison to any development or developer, anywhere?

Yes. Eli Broad in Los Angeles, although he's more of a philanthropist these days than developer.

 

But you're quite correct about City Creek Center.

[Silicon Dogwoods]

2 hours ago, Prodev said:

I'd be willing to bet the farm that this won't be an indoor mall, or a mall at all. Given the size of the land, this will likely be master planned and built out in phases over time. I'm sure there's a large retail component planned, but I'd be surprised if it included a traditional mall anchor box of anything larger than an H&M type junior box user. I would imagine BEST CASE it'll look something like a scaled down (and value engineered) version of Brickell City Centre in Miami without the indoor component- http://www.brickellcitycentre.com/ 

 

2 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I was worried someone would call me on that. ;-)

At the time, 10+ years ago, I was visiting my son at UNC and not sure where we were. I'm pretty sure this is one of them:

http://www.americaspremiershoppingplaces.com/apsp/locations/profiles/streets-at-southpoint.html

If I remember right this was surrounded by a sea of surface parking and some cheap apartments so my impression might have been better if it was plopped down on the observer site with parking hidden underneath or just using the million spots already available in Charlotte if you're able to walk 3 or 4 blocks.

Then there was one more in that area we visited not sure where though.

Now granted I've lived in Burlington VT (think Church street pedestrian mall) and Denver (think Boulder pedestrian mall) so I have a skewed point of reference. I think a high bar would be a good target though.

 

There's nothing at all remarkable about the Streets at Southpoint, let alone any of the development that surrounds it.

[dcharlotte]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Boca Raton 

Cartagena, actually. 

There are quite a few retailers that would prefer an indoor concept to get the ball rolling. It would not be on the scale of South Park or Carolina Place, but would easily be large enough to get some national retailers to bite at Uptown. As it stands now there aren't many spaces they would be willing to take on Tryon Street over a restaurant or bar. When you start to see people with shopping bags strolling through Uptown there will be more retailers looking to capitalize on the success. It is almost a chicken and egg problem - I'm just stating that I wouldn't mind seeing a small retail mall built if it got things moving faster. As it stands now there isn't any retail presence to speak of Uptown.

Going back to the comparisons with Brickell City Center or SLC: outdoor or indoor neither of those projects are street-facing. The presence or absence of a roof does not make either of those projects into more of a Georgetown or a Michigan Ave. Even Michigan Ave has an indoor mall attached to the Conrad and Georgetown has Georgetown Park.

Edited December 16, 2015 by dcharlotte

[SgtCampsalot]

Regardless, whenever it happens, it will be appropriate for Tyron St returning to its origins as the street where you "try on" things while the spouses go do their business transactions on the "trade" street.

Edited December 16, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[rockhilljames]

I really hope we don't see an indoor mall of any kind. They create inward-facing voids that lack any type of connectivity with the surrounding downtown.

I love what Denver has done with the 16th Street Mall (even if I did almost get run over by one of their electric buses -those things are quiet!) and Boulder with their Pearl Street Mall.

 

It's a fairly small site, but it's location, and the ability to tie retail into the urban fabric around it allows the developer to do something truly unique. I'd love to see a stroll district created that mixes retail, residential, and office into a human scaled environment.

[dcharlotte]

On 16th Street mall in Denver is the Denver Pavilions, which holds all of the national credit tenants that are absent from Uptown including: H&M, Express, Forever 21, Victoria Secret, and many chain restaurants. All of that retail is primarily located off of 16th Street and not facing the street.

[Higgs Boson]

Could Charlotte actually create a stroll district with plenty of shopping retail in Uptown?  Honest question, since I'm probably one of the most clueless posters on this forum.

Something like the 16th Street mall or even the Nicollet Mall in Minny would be awesome, but I've always assumed that's pretty much not going to happen.  If we could get something like the FIGat7th in LA which is an urban outdoor mall type place with an H&M, Zara, Target, and some other shops/restaurants but also throw in a hotel or some residentials I would be absolutely thrilled.

But to be honest, I'd would be alright with an indoor mall as the worst case scenario.  I just want shopping retail in Uptown, like real bad.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Higgs Boson said:

Could Charlotte actually create a stroll district with plenty of shopping retail in Uptown?  Honest question, since I'm probably one of the most clueless posters on this forum.

Something like the 16th Street mall or even the Nicollet Mall in Minny would be awesome, but I've always assumed that's pretty much not going to happen.  If we could get something like the FIGat7th in LA which is an urban outdoor mall type place with an H&M, Zara, Target, and some other shops/restaurants but also throw in a hotel or some residentials I would be absolutely thrilled.

But to be honest, I'd would be alright with an indoor mall as the worst case scenario.  I just want shopping retail in Uptown, like real bad.

Honestly, It'd have to be made from scratch, Tryon is too filled with corporate plazas, blank walls, and doorless windows. Most buildings were built without small scale retail in mind. Pretty much every single building would have to completely redo themselves, and openly commit to abandoning Overstreet Mall, which is apparently very successful. 

There have been plans for Brevard to be a stroll district, but absolutely no momentum has occurred. Levine's First Ward Village was imagined as a huge neighborhood with neighborhood and soft goods retail, but has devolved into the usual smattering of suberblock single use buildings on giant blocks. Right now the most viable option will probably be Stonewall, or North Tryon's improvement, if they are actually able to get that going. 

[Nick2]

Is overstreet mall successful? I've only ever seen light foot traffic there at best but I might just not have been there at the right times. But I do personally think that it's a really cool concept and wish that they'd expand it and make it more usable rather than abandon it.

I'm just happy that these conversations are being held. There are talks of having intelligently designed spaces for retail and restaurants in both renovations and new builds and with this continued discussion, Charlotte can only get better.

[Crown]

1 minute ago, Nick2 said:

Is overstreet mall successful? I've only ever seen light foot traffic there at best but I might just not have been there at the right times. But I do personally think that it's a really cool concept and wish that they'd expand it and make it more usable rather than abandon it.

I'm just happy that these conversations are being held. There are talks of having intelligently designed spaces for retail and restaurants in both renovations and new builds and with this continued discussion, Charlotte can only get better.

This place is my own personal hell from 11:30-1:30 on weekdays. Crowded is an understatement.  

[CLT2014]

Even the clothing shops like Bliss and Ivy & Leo get bustling during lunch hours in the Overstreet Mall. It does VERY well. Proximity to the offices, not having to go outside in the humidity or cold, not having to wait for street lights to change, and the perception of safety probably all keep Overstreet Mall bustling compared to the streets. The streets are bustling at lunch too, but NOTHING matches how crowded those hallways get. Its like Charlotte-Douglas during connection hours. 

On the flip side, it can be a ghost town during the weekend and after work hours. All those office workers get in their cars and drive home to the southern and northern suburbs. A lot of Overstreet Mall stores don't even open Saturday and Sunday.

Edited December 17, 2015 by CLT2014

[Nick2]

I guess I've never actually been there during normal business hours. If it's so successful then maybe that's what they should be pushing for, the expansion of the overstreet mall. I'm not saying abandon street level retail at all but having overstreet become an iconic part about uptown would be pretty cool like Montreal's underground city for example.

[CLT2014]

It isn't very pretty though or set up for strolling. Between each tower there are doors (usually pushed open), the pathways over the street are narrow, and there isn't really a flow that makes it a relaxing "stroll" type of mall. It is set up to be productive: Get your food, get back in the tower to work, maybe grab something at Walgreens. It is very corporate and honestly most people that aren't dressed business casual are going to feel uncomfortable. If your in jeans... your like the ONLY person in jeans and most people will think your a tourist. Overstreet mall is really the food court for office workers and how they get between buildings for meetings, grabbing food, and doing an errand during work hours, not a mall. 

And honestly, I think tenants like the banks would prefer it be a productive asset for their employees. Any more people in there and people won't be able to get to meetings between buildings due to overcrowded halls. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by CLT2014

[15895]

I think to get good retail is too be mindful of surrounding areas. Having a few good retailers in uptown isn't going to draw surrounding neighbors like a retail development with a huge parking garage where the surrounding can park in, get what they need and skidaddle. The folks that want to stay, meander and take in the city can. To be successful, I think there definitely needs to be a lot of thought for folks who want to park their cars, do some shopping and leave. As long as Stonewall and Tryon have good street frontage, it's a win-win for all. But I think it would be a mistake to not cater just as equally to those wanting to park their car, shop and leave. Similar to Crescent Stonewall.

 

 

[go_vertical]

Despite the fact that Overstreet does make street retail a bit more difficult, I think it has a value to uptown workers. I'm sure during rainy days and the oppressive heat of summer it is a godsend. I doubt it is going anywhere anytime soon so why not have it "bleed" onto the street? Designate a couple of spots where space might be available and construct more prominent entrances with the stairs going up flanked by a new shop front on either side. This would give us a couple small street-level up fits and also introduce the mall to people that might not know it's there.

[elrodvt]

As someone who lives down here the overstreet mail is a complete don't care. It's closed weekends and nights and useless to residents who work during the day. Even if it is open it's still 2/3 fast food places. I understand it's a great benefit for the people who work there but it doesn't help us with being a walkable city that people would want to visit - just to visit. Could it become something more? I don't know - it's not very well designed with lots of pinch points and stairs which make anyone with a stroller turn around and leave. Still if you could get the right places in there, have it feed in/out from the streets better, and be open when people shop it might be a real asset.

[Nick2]

Well it's obviously a pretty major asset to the city currently even if only so for the office workers during business hours. I think there is a lot of potential like what was said. Made it more accessible with better tenants. Expand it and add entry points. Have the street level merge into it at various points. It is certainly doable with the right design.

At least connect it further south into the convention center and into the new tryon place/stonewall corridor once they're complete and to whatever the Observer building ends up being.

I took some visiting friends to it after they flew into CLT and they thought it was pretty awesome. They're from rural areas so that may have biased them but they left thinking Charlotte is amazing. 

[Dale]

Every out-of-town guest I've taken to the Overstreet Mall is roundly impressed by it.

[LKN704]

Wasn't Bloomngdales supposed to be an anchor for the then Wachovia Center? I wonder if they'd be willing to bite.