Brightline Trains

[dcluley98]

125 MPH. It is only FTA approved for that speed, no matter the track. 

[jrs2]

19 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

125 MPH. It is only FTA approved for that speed, no matter the track. 

Um, I think we need some clarification.   Someone said something about electric locomotives being needed to go faster speeds. But here there is an FTA reg on top speed. So is there a cap bc of safety for that type of locomotive, no matter what the track? And can't a more advanced diesel locomotive go faster than 125mph? 

[dcluley98]

The limit is specific to the Seimens Charger locomotive. (for safety regulation).  There are not currently any Diesel locomotives operating in the world at a higher speed. The British HST and Russian TEP-80 locomotives supposedly hit 148 MPH and 168 MPH supposedly in the 80s/90s, but nobody has evidence of them operating that fast in actual service. The British HST operated at 125 MPH in England, but eventually was phased out for electric powered locomotives. Electric with catenary wires are capable of much higher speeds, but also would require the ROW and build-out to accomplish that, and since this is not possible in South Florida, it doesn't really make sense for Brightline to do. They would have to have two different systems or a "hybrid" locomotive that could run on diesel in South Florida, and then on catenary in other areas where it is feasible (such as the grade-separated Cocoa to MCO section or Tampa section in I-4 ROW).   

[codypet]

On 3/2/2024 at 5:34 AM, aent said:

Brightline has said they're targeting 150mph for Orlando-Tampa expansion

I presume if they follow the same alignment of the 2010 FLHSR and maybe the Charger locomotives have something done that gets them 150 mph.  The current design maxes out at 125.

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/us/en/portfolio/rolling-stock/locomotives.html

Edited March 4 by codypet

[cubanbread]

I don't know where to post this info but Amtrak is looking to restore Florida to Chicago service. It would also stop in Atlanta, Nashville, and Indianapolis.  There's a bit of an uproar in Tampa because it would bypass Union Station and instead head straight to Miami from Orlando.  https://www.wusf.org/transportation/2024-03-04/amtrak-bypasses-tampa-chicago-to-florida-service

Considering they're estimating it will take 33hours from Chicago to Miami adding another couple of hours to that trip doesn't seem like that big of a deal so it doesn't make a lot of sense not to include Tampa. Plus, couldn't this be a way for them to increase daily service between Tampa and Orlando or Tampa and Miami? 

 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, cubanbread said:

I don't know where to post this info but Amtrak is looking to restore Florida to Chicago service. It would also stop in Atlanta, Nashville, and Indianapolis.  There's a bit of an uproar in Tampa because it would bypass Union Station and instead head straight to Miami from Orlando.  https://www.wusf.org/transportation/2024-03-04/amtrak-bypasses-tampa-chicago-to-florida-service

Considering they're estimating it will take 33hours from Chicago to Miami adding another couple of hours to that trip doesn't seem like that big of a deal so it doesn't make a lot of sense not to include Tampa. Plus, couldn't this be a way for them to increase daily service between Tampa and Orlando or Tampa and Miami? 

fascinating.

you know, back in the '90's, to catch Amtrak from central MI and go east into eastern Ohio, you would first have to go west to Hammond, IN.  Well, in name, that doesn't sound like a big deal, but...Hammond IN is a border city to Chicago (Hammond or Gary is).  

So, if they were willing to do that, and use "Chicago" as a "hub" (probably to lure more passengers), then coming into Orlando and then going west southwest first should be that big of a deal (unless the track config didn't make sense).  Not sure; I gotta see their rail map again...

[aent]

23 hours ago, codypet said:

I presume if they follow the same alignment of the 2010 FLHSR and maybe the Charger locomotives have something done that gets them 150 mph.  The current design maxes out at 125.

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/us/en/portfolio/rolling-stock/locomotives.html

Brightline has said its capable of more, especially with the dual locomotives brightline is using. Brightline seems to believe it is possible to get it certified for a higher speed. During testing they ran it over 130 without issues. It's very unclear what the truth is, i don't think anyone really knows, as there hasn't been demand for it from my understanding

[codypet]

1 hour ago, aent said:

Brightline has said its capable of more, especially with the dual locomotives brightline is using. Brightline seems to believe it is possible to get it certified for a higher speed. During testing they ran it over 130 without issues. It's very unclear what the truth is, i don't think anyone really knows, as there hasn't been demand for it from my understanding

They did run 130mph, and FRA was none too happy with them over that.   So I'm sure they'll have to figure how to get certified for 150.  Right now Siemens doesn't show them as legally allowed to exceed 125.

[jliv]

On 3/4/2024 at 4:00 PM, cubanbread said:

I don't know where to post this info but Amtrak is looking to restore Florida to Chicago service. It would also stop in Atlanta, Nashville, and Indianapolis.  There's a bit of an uproar in Tampa because it would bypass Union Station and instead head straight to Miami from Orlando.  https://www.wusf.org/transportation/2024-03-04/amtrak-bypasses-tampa-chicago-to-florida-service

Considering they're estimating it will take 33hours from Chicago to Miami adding another couple of hours to that trip doesn't seem like that big of a deal so it doesn't make a lot of sense not to include Tampa. Plus, couldn't this be a way for them to increase daily service between Tampa and Orlando or Tampa and Miami? 

 

Amtrak is also studying the possibility of adding service from Dallas to Miami via Jacksonville, but…here’s the kicker…the trains would use the Florida East Coast Railway and bypass both Orlando and Tampa while adding new service to Daytona Beach and Palm Bay.  This might be a net win for Florida mobility: it could hasten both double-tracking of the rest of the FECR from Cocoa to Jacksonville, along with building the Tampa extension via the Sunshine Corridor.  It may be that the Chicago-Miami route also uses the FECR, with Disney or Tampa-bound passengers transferring at a Cocoa station for their onward journey into central Florida.  As someone who has taken the Silver Meteor from DC to Miami (in a sleeper car) I found the Tampa-Lakeland detour a bit awkward.  A smartly-timed transfer to one of the new Amtrak Charger trains (or even a Brightline train), using new Brightline tracks,  strikes me as a more comfortable and faster option than those rickety ol’ CSX freight tracks!

Edited March 11 by jliv

[jrs2]

20 minutes ago, jliv said:

Amtrak is also studying the possibility of adding service from Dallas to Miami via Jacksonville, but…here’s the kicker…the trains would use the Florida East Coast Railway and bypass both Orlando and Tampa while adding new service to Daytona Beach and Palm Bay.  This might be a net win for Florida mobility: it could hasten both double-tracking of the rest of the FECR from Cocoa to Jacksonville, along with building the Tampa extension via the Sunshine Corridor.  It may be that the Chicago-Miami route also uses the FECR, with Disney or Tampa-bound passengers transferring at a Cocoa station for their onward journey into central Florida.  As someone who has taken the Silver Meteor from DC to Miami (in a sleeper car) I found the Tampa-Lakeland detour a bit awkward.  A smartly-timed transfer to one of the new Amtrak Charger trains (or even a Brightline train), using new Brightline tracks,  strikes me as a more comfortable and faster option than those rickety ol’ CSX freight tracks!

it may be the catalyst to allow FEC to get Federal $$$ to pay for upgrading that stretch of track...

[codypet]

16 hours ago, jrs2 said:

it may be the catalyst to allow FEC to get Federal $$$ to pay for upgrading that stretch of track...

They'll be happy to take the money that's for sure.   And they'd likely give FEC and Brightline preferential treatment on the line.  

[cubanbread]

I could 100% see Brightline and Amtrak running trains on the same tracks in the future. The east coast of Florida is one of the most dense corridors in the country.  
Rough estimate, about 10 million people live along the FEC line, mostly weighted to the south of course, about 7 million from Dade to St. Lucie county and about 3 million from Brevard to Duval. It makes sense. 

[jliv]

22 hours ago, jrs2 said:

it may be the catalyst to allow FEC to get Federal $$$ to pay for upgrading that stretch of track...

(a little side topic) Going back to the Amtrak study,  another thing I would hope they’d consider is replacing the old clunky Viewliner and Superliner sleeper cars with the new Siemens sleeper cars as implemented for the new European NightJet service. I haven’t taken the NightJet yet, but I want to.  There’s something to be said for a leisurely train journey!  Video here: 

 

[shardoon]

Surprised nobody posted about this. Brightline just announced the Cocoa Beach station at 528/US1. I would assume the cruise lines will contract with them  and provide last leg bus service or maybe even Uber allowances for the cruises. 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

Surprised nobody posted about this. Brightline just announced the Cocoa Beach station at 528/US1. I would assume the cruise lines will contract with them  and provide last leg bus service or maybe even Uber allowances for the cruises. 

it takes a village...

https://www.wesh.com/article/brightline-station-cocoa-florida/60176323

https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2024/03/12/next-stop-cocoa-brightline-travels-toward-new-station-in-brevard/

this is huge because it helps both BL and PC, as each will feed the other traffic; there are some that will now book cruises from PC because of the convenience, and, there are PC customers already booked for cruises that will take BL and avoid parking charges at the port. Likewise, BL will increase it's ridership from MCO to PC, and to some extent, from other markets between there and Miami.

The station will have to be large because there will be large shuttle busses going back and forth to PC.  This might be a huge station.  When you think about it, it might have to have a very large platform for the trains that's covered, and a large drop off for the busses as well.  I am assuming that someone like a MEARS will be involved.  They can repurpose the Magical Express busses and use them there.  PC will generate a ton of ridership in spurts based on cruise schedule.  I wouldn't be surprised if a hotel component also comes to fruition here for travelers arriving the night before a cruise.  There are so many dynamics at play here.

Edited March 12 by jrs2

[jrs2]

I think they're going to have to double-track the 528 segment to effectively service Cocoa/ Port Canaveral Station.  they also need to poll cruise passengers coming from the west to find out how many would use BL once service became available.  Or, maybe design the station so that the platform(s) are expandable if they under-project how much traffic this will generate.

I wonder if MCO to Cocoa will be a circulator...

I think they are going to have to order a couple of more train sets...

Edited March 12 by jrs2

[shardoon]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I think they're going to have to double-track the 528 segment to effectively service Cocoa/ Port Canaveral Station.  they also need to poll cruise passengers coming from the west to find out how many would use BL once service became available.  Or, maybe design the station so that the platform(s) are expandable if they under-project how much traffic this will generate.

I wonder if MCO to Cocoa will be a circulator...

I think they are going to have to order a couple of more train sets...

If the ridership for the cruises is huge, they will almost certainly have to have a separate line dedicated for cruises otherwise that small leg would clog the trains with people only taking that short leg and would take from their Orlando South Florida long haul service. 

[jrs2]

14 hours ago, shardoon said:

If the ridership for the cruises is huge, they will almost certainly have to have a separate line dedicated for cruises otherwise that small leg would clog the trains with people only taking that short leg and would take from their Orlando South Florida long haul service. 

this is a very interesting dynamic.  people may say, f* it, I'm taking the train to PC from Orlando.  Well, are these people parking at MCO instead?  Uh oh...there isn't nearly enough parking to handle what we have now, let alone PC cruise traffic.  Think of how insane this may become, avoiding one bottleneck by creating another.  

Too many variables here.  They may build an enormous garage at the Cocoa Station as well, if they identify that station as a Port auxiliary transit hub (which it will be because of BL).  This station can affect so many regional "nodes" as a new one is also created in Cocoa at this station.

If Sunrail can connect to MCO by the time this BL Cocoa Station opens, there will be so many extra options at play here.  You can have cruise traffic originating from DeLand Sunrail Station, for example...

PC is budgeting to build new parking garages over the next few years as it is.

Is Carnival, RC, and Disney going to sponsor busses going to Cocoa Station?  Is that at play as well?

And then you have KSC and Cocoa Beach traffic as well to consider.

I think BL is going to double track the 528 segment.

[shardoon]

2 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

this is a very interesting dynamic.  people may say, f* it, I'm taking the train to PC from Orlando.  Well, are these people parking at MCO instead?  Uh oh...there isn't nearly enough parking to handle what we have now, let alone PC cruise traffic.  Think of how insane this may become, avoiding one bottleneck by creating another.  

Too many variables here.  They may build an enormous garage at the Cocoa Station as well, if they identify that station as a Port auxiliary transit hub (which it will be because of BL).  This station can affect so many regional "nodes" as a new one is also created in Cocoa at this station.

If Sunrail can connect to MCO by the time this BL Cocoa Station opens, there will be so many extra options at play here.  You can have cruise traffic originating from DeLand Sunrail Station, for example...

PC is budgeting to build new parking garages over the next few years as it is.

Is Carnival, RC, and Disney going to sponsor busses going to Cocoa Station?  Is that at play as well?

And then you have KSC and Cocoa Beach traffic as well to consider.

I think BL is going to double track the 528 segment.

I am doubtful locals would take the train to the port. It is too close and a waste of time to park at the airport, wait for the train, get off 20 minutes later and get into a bus for the last 8 miles to the port. The out of towners that land in the airport for their cruise will be the primary utilizers. Honestly, this Cocoa station is in a location that is of no real use for people other than cruise traffic. It is not like it is near a nice downtown city area and it is nowhere near the beaches. 

[jrs2]

24 minutes ago, shardoon said:

I am doubtful locals would take the train to the port. It is too close and a waste of time to park at the airport, wait for the train, get off 20 minutes later and get into a bus for the last 8 miles to the port. The out of towners that land in the airport for their cruise will be the primary utilizers. Honestly, this Cocoa station is in a location that is of no real use for people other than cruise traffic. It is not like it is near a nice downtown city area and it is nowhere near the beaches. 

Yeah, if this was Daytona, US-1 is where the FEC line is and is literally half a mile from the other side of the US 92 bridge to the beachside.  Brevard mainland is so far west because of Merritt Island, etc...  

There are locals, though, that are in play to use it.  Case in point: Princess Cruises chose PC because of a target demographic that uses them that is in the area (I think they mean The Villages).  But driving to MCO to take the train most of the way...

you're probably right...people getting off of a plane...

[jliv]

45 minutes ago, shardoon said:

I am doubtful locals would take the train to the port. It is too close and a waste of time to park at the airport, wait for the train, get off 20 minutes later and get into a bus for the last 8 miles to the port. The out of towners that land in the airport for their cruise will be the primary utilizers. Honestly, this Cocoa station is in a location that is of no real use for people other than cruise traffic. It is not like it is near a nice downtown city area and it is nowhere near the beaches. 

It sounds to me like the Cocoa station will be the sole train station in Brevard (at least, initially).  If Amtrak service is added (as mentioned in an earlier post), the Cocoa station becomes much more vital as a transfer point for a number of destinations.  Another potential service not previously mentioned: SunRail service to Brevard.  The Sunshine Corridor proposal, as it currently stands, includes a line from Disney via MCO to a new Sunrail station near the 528/Innovation Way, anticipating Sunbridge growth in the future.  It’s not an incredible leap to consider an extension to Cocoa and Melbourne/Palm Bay for SunRail, into another large population center currently without any passenger rail service.

Here’s a link to a study done in 2016 to identify potential train station sites, if you’re interested: 

Edited March 13 by jliv

[jrs2]

14 minutes ago, jliv said:

It sounds to me like the Cocoa station will be the sole train station in Brevard (at least, initially).  If Amtrak service is added (as mentioned in an earlier post), the Cocoa station becomes much more vital as a transfer point for a number of destinations.  Another potential service not previously mentioned: SunRail service to Brevard.  The Sunshine Corridor proposal, as it currently stands, includes a line from Disney via MCO to a new Sunrail station near the 528/Innovation Way, anticipating Sunbridge growth in the future.  It’s not an incredible leap to consider an extension to Cocoa and Melbourne/Palm Bay for SunRail, into another large population center currently without any passenger rail service.

it could very well be that BL sees the Cocoa Station as a way to get its cars to 100% capacity (at least for that segment).  But how would that affect people trying to take it all the way to Miami?  Will cruise passengers take up those seats only for a short distance?  Maybe it will be a circulator from MCO.

Amtrak connectivity would be big.  But I don't see Amtrak passengers taking Amtrak for a cruise.  Maybe...

Sunrail extension...They just need to get that MCO connection up and running and into the contemplation of current users and future users and get that "new" traffic travel pattern going ASAP.  From there...anything goes, right?

FEC is going to have to finish double-tracking its mainline (and the 528 line) in Brevard and south, for BL and that new service from Amtrak...  A whole lot of logistics need to be evaluated...

[aent]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:30 PM, jrs2 said:

I think they are going to have to order a couple of more train sets...

They have 30 more passenger cars on order to make the trains longer that should be delivered prior to new stations opening. This will make each train 3 cars longer, from 4 to 7 cars.

10 hours ago, jrs2 said:

it could very well be that BL sees the Cocoa Station as a way to get its cars to 100% capacity (at least for that segment).  But how would that affect people trying to take it all the way to Miami?  Will cruise passengers take up those seats only for a short distance?  Maybe it will be a circulator from MCO.

 

As it is, Bightline is reserving seats in South Florida to keep capacity for those travelling the Orlando route. Tickets within the South Florida section are often listed as sold out to keep room for anyone going from Miami-Orlando. Remember, prior to the Orlando section launch, Brightline took some of the Orlando passenger cars and put them on the South Florida line to make them 5 passenger cars long, and they were just about filling them up in that section. Most trains are not full on the Orlando-WPB section, so its likely the 3 new passenger cars on each train are likely mostly intended to serve the demand for local traffic, that Brightline at this point is actively rejecting. Also, for those going on cruises, most Disney cruises do leave out of Port Canaveral, and I foresee plenty of people still leaving out of there even if originating from South Florida.

 

11 hours ago, jliv said:

 It’s not an incredible leap to consider an extension to Cocoa and Melbourne/Palm Bay for SunRail,

Its previously been proposed to extend Sunrail on the north side to Daytona. If that were to come to fruition, I image then travelling back south along the FEC to Cocoa/Melbourne/Palm Bay from Daytona likely would make more sense.

 

11 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Princess Cruises chose PC because of a target demographic that uses them that is in the area (I think they mean The Villages).  But driving to MCO to take the train most of the way

There are a ton of airport shuttles from MCO to the Villages. It doesn't seem like a leap for those in the Villages going on a cruise to utilize said airport shuttle, and then Brightline to Port Canaveral to entirely avoid driving for the old folks.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 4:07 PM, jliv said:

 This might be a net win for Florida mobility: it could hasten both double-tracking of the rest of the FECR from Cocoa to Jacksonville, along with building the Tampa extension via the Sunshine Corridor.

The other thing that will likely hasten the double tracking is the proposed "First Coast Rail", a commuter rail service along FEC from Jacksonville to St Augustine.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43572ee892264d9aa1df6dc1c72e6a24

[codypet]

8 hours ago, aent said:

They have 30 more passenger cars on order to make the trains longer that should be delivered prior to new stations opening. This will make each train 3 cars longer, from 4 to 7 cars.

IIRC everything was built to max out at 10 cars so there's room for growth.   Similarly I think Sunrail is designed around 5 or 6 cars.  

8 hours ago, aent said:

Its previously been proposed to extend Sunrail on the north side to Daytona. If that were to come to fruition, I image then travelling back south along the FEC to Cocoa/Melbourne/Palm Bay from Daytona likely would make more sense.

Where do you put the tracks though?  You'd have to build a new line along US 92 to do it.  The current line from Deland goes north to Palatka.

[cubanbread]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:32 AM, shardoon said:

I am doubtful locals would take the train to the port.

I don't know, I think the growing hatred for being in traffic, plus the success of the SFLA portion, indicates that there will be some demand from locals. The 'who's going to ride it' crowd has been taking a lot of Ls since Brightline started service (not saying you're one of those people).

Driving sucks more today than it ever has, and it's just getting worse. Now there are not only more cars but also bigger vehicles, and people are driving more aggressively. Also, car ownership is plummeting with younger people. I don't think a short bus transfer is really going to affect anyone, and waiting at the Brightline station isn't a bad thing at all – it's super comfortable and has amenities. They're not likely to take up the bulk of travelers, but it will likely be a larger percent than you think.

Also, the MCO station is just the start. When the Sunshine Corridor is completed, people will be able to travel from any SunRail stop, so that initial drive time to a station will be cut down significantly.

As for the location of the station, I always hoped it would end up near Cocoa Village, but that's me coming at this from an urbanist POV. The truth is, as great as Cocoa Village is, KSC and Port Canaveral are much bigger destinations. Not only that, but Cocoa Village is only 3.5 miles away from this location, so it's not a very big deal.

They are anticipating development around the station. This article mentions a city council member from Cocoa wanting to turn the area around the station into an economic zone that would help pay for the station via taxes collected on new developments.

 https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2024/03/12/brightline-gives-green-light-to-cocoa-stop-for-its-rail-service/72940551007/