Gaines Street

[seminole]

I am assuming that no pun was intended.

[AlaninTally]

A Wal-mart (remember they would only put in their Grocery Store concept) would work and yes, people would shop there. I don't doubt the success of this store at the Gaines Street location. All I am saying is that it's a disappointing solution to what was an exciting concept. Is Wal-mart really a "destination area" retail solution? Imagine the excitement that the first Trader Joe's to this area would bring. People would definitely flock to that area to shop there. Wal-mart would only serve the immediate area. Who out in Killearn would come to Gaines St just to shop at a Wal-mart grocery store? By comparison, many people in the downtown area go out to Killearn to shop at Fresh Market. The uniqueness of the Gaines Street Plan is what would make it a success. Yes, it needs to serve the area, but it order to be revitalized it needs to be special and exciting.

[stjoe]

well said Alan.

I have said over and over. This was sold as a 'destination area'....or 'culturally exciting' among other things.

Based on what it was sold as, I don't not think they are keep to their original mission.....as noted by the head of the committee.

IF we want to change the mission as "just doing better than it was before".....OK, but that isn't what it was sold as.

[poonther]

Fresh Market is the only reason I go North of I-10 on any type of regular basis.

Can anyone link us to what Blueprint's idea for Gaines Street originally was??? I seem to have the same idea as SJ and AiT as to what is was suppose to be, but I see that TJ and seminole have a different idea. I'd love to know exactly what we voted on and then hold them to that.

[seminole]

Fresh Market is the only reason I go North of I-10 on any type of regular basis.

Can anyone link us to what Blueprint's idea for Gaines Street originally was??? I seem to have the same idea as SJ and AiT as to what is was suppose to be, but I see that TJ and seminole have a different idea. I'd love to know exactly what we voted on and then hold them to that.

[AlaninTally]

As said before, a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, would fill the need and I have no doubt it would be used by many. But to me it's not the right answer. The Publix on Ocala is very close to FSU and FAMU and it is well used. The students flock to the Wal-Mart Supercenter on Tennessee. Why another Wal-Mart store on Gaines when there are so many other exciting possibilities? Yeah, yeah, Wal-Mart approached Tally. Big whoop. The plan is supposed to incorporate all manner of people: visitors, students, employees in the area. It would be nice if Tally sought out something different to make the area more unique. In turn, people not just from the immediate area but from all corners of Tally and beyond would make the area one of their destinations if we had something you couldn't get anywhere else in Tally.

This downtown resident wants more!

[seminole]

As said before, a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market, would fill the need and I have no doubt it would be used by many. But to me it's not the right answer. The Publix on Ocala is very close to FSU and FAMU and it is well used. The students flock to the Wal-Mart Supercenter on Tennessee. Why another Wal-Mart store on Gaines when there are so many other exciting possibilities? Yeah, yeah, Wal-Mart approached Tally. Big whoop. The plan is supposed to incorporate all manner of people: visitors, students, employees in the area. It would be nice if Tally sought out something different to make the area more unique. In turn, people not just from the immediate area but from all corners of Tally and beyond would make the area one of their destinations if we had something you couldn't get anywhere else in Tally.

This downtown resident wants more!

[Florida]

No as I said before, the idea will work. Let's bring students and young professionals closer to campus so they don't have to drive to West Tennessee. This idea falls right in line with developing an urban core and will provide more of a convergence between FSU and FAMU students. A Publix on Ocala is not close to FAMU and is marginal for FSU because it doesn't cater to a walkable community nor does it negate the use of an automobile. Buses really don't fit the schedule of a college student who has to go to work and shop between classes. Locating in the urban core is a new trend for a lot of other big box stores, so why can't Tallahassee be one to spear-head this. Besides, if we want to attract corporations to the downtown area, then we need to have a livable community there also - not just those who to visit.

The foot traffic generated by Wal-mart will attract other businesses as well (even those that some of you feel is the right component for Gaines Street). But I'll remind you that an arts/entertainment destination means nothing if there is no funding to develop or maintain it.

No one on this forum wants more for Tallahassee than I do and I'm not just talking about Gaines Street but the downtown as a whole.

[AlaninTally]

It's a "Target Vs. Wal-Mart" thing. It's an endless argument that provides no real solution. I am happy that a downtown grocery store would be a reality, but disappointed that it would be a Wal-Mart concept. If that is thought of as elitist or snobby, then I am an elitist snob. It has nothing to do with the clientele. Wal-mart attracts all manner of people on the socio-economic scale. I don't care who I am shopping next to so much as where I am shopping.

It's a matter for me of principal. Have we forgotten Wal-mart's dirty deeds of leaving a location just to build a newer building a few miles up the road and then hold the lease on the old building so nothing new could come in? Shopping centers have died because of that practice.

Wal-mart also carries a stigma that is not easily removed. Take a look already at today's Democrat and you read the concern the area's retailers and residents have about bringing in a Wal-mart owned operation. To put it bluntly, Wal-mart is seen as the lowest common denominator in retail. Those low prices come at a higher cost. When I think of revitilization for downtown, I don't think of Wal-mart. That's just my opinion based on my experience, hopes, dreams, etc...If the majority dream of a Wal-mart then so be it.

[poonther]

TJ, I have no idea who or what type of person shops at Wally-mart b/c like I've said before in all my life I've probably been in their store less than ten times. Why? Mainly b/c of the their business principles that AiT listed above. Also because the few times I've been in their stores, I did not like their selections. Retailers like Costco and Trader Joe's pay "living wages" w/full benefits unlike Wally-mart.

Also keep in mind that AiT and I live here in the downtown and this area would also be for us. I live much closer to Gaines than I do to any Target, Wal-mart or Mall in Tally. So because of my location, I probably shop in "student areas" more than most here in town. I also shop at the Wakulla Mall aka The Flea Market on Cap. Circle regularly, so I doubt I fit your description about those fearful of this b/c of Wally-mart type shoppers. Personally I am far more fearful of the "Muffies and Junior Leaguers" up in Killearn than I am of the Wal-mart shopper, whatever that may be.

While some of it maybe the name like you say, I'd still be this disappointed in this project if it were a Winn-Dixie going in here. Or if they wanted a department store on Gaines and say Sears, Goodies or Burlington Coat Factory was courting the city for the site, I'd still feel the same as I do about Wally-mart going here.

Also I'll throw this out here, I think you need to attract some townies to this area and not just make it a student area. If it were to become students only, the area would suffer in aesthetics and cleanliness IMHO. Many of our student dominated retail areas in town tend to be the most littered and less cared for centers in town.

Thanks for the link seminole, I'm gonna check it out in detail today.

Does anyone have any pictures of the exterior and interior of some Wally-mart Neighborhood Store like the one proposed on Gaines? If so I'd love to see a few.

[mracca]

Poonther I dont think I could have said it any better!

"Also I'll throw this out here, I think you need to attract some townies to this area and not just make it a student area. If it were to become students only, the area would suffer in aesthetics and cleanliness IMHO. Many of our student dominated retail areas in town tend to be the most littered and less cared for centers in town."

I just moved into downtown area last week, Meridian and John Knox Street. So I would like to have a nice little grocery store downtown to frequent every once in a while. The "student area shopping" track record isn

[Florida]

What difference is there in living above a retail store, but not Wal-Mart? In a perfect world we'd be talking about a Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Trader Joes, Nike Store, Apple Retail Store, setting up shop along Gaines Street. But what I, and I think some others are saying is that we, being Tallahassee, can't at this time choose who wants to come here. I think Wal-Mart if this deal goes through, would just be step one, the good stuff will follow. This is just as important to me, Poonther, as you. I live an arm length from Gaines Street. I probably live closer to the project area than you do ... actually I think I do.

Locals want to live in the urban core too. But they also desire a look, and convienances they are accustomed to. Wal-Mart Neighborhood Marketplace can help to provide that. I have no beef with Wal-Mart's groceries (no pun intended), and I'm excited about having something like this downtown because I know it'll help attract the stores and restaurants I really want.

My question is why wasn't this argument struck when we heard Fallschase was building a Wal-Mart? If anything, I'd think we'd be arguing about that Wal-Mart location, less than 3 miles from Apalachee Parkway and not this simple Marketplace concept.

We could talk about many stores uprooting from locations building new facilities a few doors away leaving the other's vacant. But that's not something unique to Wal-Mart. I can count 3 times in the past 5 years that Publix has done this, 2 of those stores still remain empty.

Here are some images of Wal-Mart blending into the Urban Landscape:

[AlaninTally]

TJ,

I think you are selling Tallahassee short. I am curious as to what other shopping districts you have seen that you can compare to what Gaines Street will become. Like others have mentioned before, Wal-mart is hardly ever found in the vision that I was sold by Tallahassee. If you look at the store that surround our Wal-marts, they aren't exactly different or exciting or anything that will lure visitors to the area. You'll get a Subway but not a Cheesecake Factory if Wal-mart is around. You will get Cato clothing and not Urban Outfitters if Wal-mart is around. Radio Shack and not Apple if Wal-mart is around. Take your pick.

I think a really good example of what I believe should be a similar vision for Gaines Street is Mill Avenue in Tempe, AZ. It's right next to ASU and the downtown Tempe area. It is frequented by visitors, students, employees of the offices, etc...

http://www.downtowntempe.com/

The Fallschase Wal-Mart is fine by me because the rest of the devolpment will have other stores we don't yet have. Hello, Costco!

[stjoe]

we have no assurance the Walmart they would us would look like those.

If they do, I would feel better about it.

But the truth is, if the voters were told that this was the way Gaines Street was going a long time ago.....they would not of gotten the public behind this at ALL. Another article in the Democrat today says as much.

I think the public was sold one thing and are being given another....REGARDLESS of if you are OK with this or not.

[poonther]

TJ, I mentioned my proximity to Gaines not as a contest but to just say that more than college students will shop this district. Before you've stated that I and others are too old to know what's right for this area and I was just illustrating that the area would be used by those other than students. I bet I've been to at least 50 of these type of districts. If you've not seen many of these type of districts then I could say you are too inexperineced to know what's right for the area.

AiT's example of Mills Ave in Tempe is EXACTLY what I had envisioned the area becoming. Some of the highest densities in the State are in this corridor, or at least that's what I've read before. Urban Outfitters is the PERFECT store for this area and should be approached and courted now! I also agree w/AiT that I've never seen impressive retailers follow Wally-mart. I too think your vision is selling us short. I thought this district was going to be different and unique not just another Westwood Plaza (or whatever the new name is), Publix shopping center on Ocala and Tennessee Street itself, but it almost sounds like you'd be happy w/that type of situation here because you think that's all we are capable of. If that's all we are capable of, I'd have never wanted it to be part of BluePrint's tax money.

I do think some raised concern about the Wally-mart at Fallschase being so close to the other one on the Parkway. Actually I know several people posted about this. I'm not crazy about that one either, but Costco helps me "swallow that pill" a little better. However Fallschase's retail will really be just another shopping center, I very nice one at that I believe, but Gaines was suppose to be something different and unique. That's the difference to me.

[Go Gators]

Personally I am far more fearful of the "Muffies and Junior Leaguers" up in Killearn than I am of the Wal-mart shopper, whatever that may be.

[poonther]

Easy Poonther, my significant other is a Junior Leaguer!!

[Florida]

Poonther, I never said we were in competition over proximity to the district. I merely stated my distance in reference to yours to note that I too am a stakeholder the success of the area. I also feel it necessary to note that I also didn't say you were too old to have your vision for Gaines Street matter, but merely point out student input is very important in a prodominantly student oriented area.

Me selling Tallahassee short?!?!?!?!?

No, my friend, those that have been around for the past 30 years allowing this city to fall further and futher behind the times have sold Tallahassee short:

• Waiting all this time to now want to do something to bring life to downtown??

• Not charging developers for their impact to area infrasturucture?

• Allowing a small town to beat us to building a theme park in our area??

• Greedy developers who take advantage of renters in low-income areas and don't care for the property they own??

• Those who have withdrawn themselves to comfortable, convienant neighborhoods and allowed sprawl to continue in this community, while doing nothing to boost inadequate transportation systems costing us more to mitigate our problems??

• Driving out of town for Air service instead of promoting use of out own airport??

• Not supporting area professional sports teams???

• Not reporting news in a detailed and professional manner???

That's selling Tallahassee short to me. I simply want us to move forward. I'd love very much to hear of alternatives to this Wal-Mart plan. But I'd also like to hear about the Wal-Mart Plan itself before everyone calls for it to be axed. Truthfully, if you think of it, there's not a Wal-Mart within 5 miles of the center of the city.

Essentially what everyone in opposition to this Wal-Mart is saying is that this is not the type of retailer we all were sold as a part of the Gaines Street revitalization plan. I agree with that. You all are saying you don't think this is the type of store that will make Downtown Tallahassee unique, and I agree with that also, yet I also can't think of many downtowns with a Wal-Mart. I don't agree with the notion that the inclusion of this store to the corridor will spell the doom of our vision, primarly because the Real Estate in this area is too expensive for "trashy retailers", the city has strict oversight over what will go on in this area, and I'd much rather see a new Wal-Mart in the design of one of those above or in the likeness of our new Marriott than continue to see the Warehouses that now make up the blighted corridor.

Much the same way they chose to not allow the Place Properties Student Housing last year, the city can do the same for this project and any other it deems not in compliance with the vision we set forward. I won't be heart broken either way, because Wal-Mart isn't what I want for us to have. But I'll take what I can get so long as we're moving in the direction of enhancing the corridor.

[seminole]

TJ,

I think you are selling Tallahassee short. I am curious as to what other shopping districts you have seen that you can compare to what Gaines Street will become. Like others have mentioned before, Wal-mart is hardly ever found in the vision that I was sold by Tallahassee. If you look at the store that surround our Wal-marts, they aren't exactly different or exciting or anything that will lure visitors to the area. You'll get a Subway but not a Cheesecake Factory if Wal-mart is around. You will get Cato clothing and not Urban Outfitters if Wal-mart is around. Radio Shack and not Apple if Wal-mart is around. Take your pick.

I think a really good example of what I believe should be a similar vision for Gaines Street is Mill Avenue in Tempe, AZ. It's right next to ASU and the downtown Tempe area. It is frequented by visitors, students, employees of the offices, etc...

http://www.downtowntempe.com/

The Fallschase Wal-Mart is fine by me because the rest of the devolpment will have other stores we don't yet have. Hello, Costco!

[AlaninTally]

TJ,

I suppose I should say I believe you are selling the vision of the Gaines Street Plan short. Your excitement and commitment to Tally is understood I understand the excitement of wanting to get things moving, but I say again, that Wal-mart is not the vision I was sold. It seems as if you are resigning to just take what we can get and that's not what I want for Tallahassee and that's not what I want for our downtown revitilization. "Take what we can get" sounds defeatist to me.

No matter how we dress it up, Wal-mart is still Wal-mart no matter how urbanized it looks on the outside. I am glad there isn't one within 5 miles of the center of the city, because a Wal-mart doesn't belong there.

[Go Gators]

Somehow this doesn't surprise me in the least.

And "For The Record" I'm related to many Junior Leaguers.

[psycuda]

When I think of what Gaines Street could be, this is what I think of

http://www.klru.org/austinnow/archives/UT_drag/ut_drag.asp

only without the Scientologists

[poonther]

TJ, I must say that when you are "put on the spot" you make an excellent post! I understand what you are saying and you make a great case for your position. Of course I am still not in favor of this proposal, but I do understand your logic. It will be interesting to see what type of proposal and renderings that Wally-mart submits if this thing goes further.

seminole, I'm pretty familiar w/Tempe and it's surroundings, but I did enjoy the links. The reason why I stated Mill Ave. is exactly what we needed is b/c compared to many other destination centers in other cities, it's really not that grand. It's good and serves the college pop. and townies well, but it's definitely not a Santana Row in San Jose or Mizner Park in Boca Raton. I still feel a Mill Ave is the type of thing we should be shooting for.

psycuda the Austin example is another superb example of what we should try and emulate. However Austin too has many large corporations and since we don't, the logic follows that we should be grateful for whatever we can get. I can't wait for the grand opening of the Dollar General Marketplace on Gaines.

And GG, it's not your "beloved DVR" I'm jealous of, "For the Record" it's your two TV's I covet. :

After reading all the post on this subject, I think we all agree on the fact we want a revitalized Gaines and we want it to be something nice and that we are proud to show-off. I think our main difference is the starting point. It is nice to see people passionate about the future of our city. That's always a good thing.

[AlaninTally]

Agreed, poonther on all points. It's exciting and warms my heart to read these impassioned posts!

TJ, I definitely "hear" you and while I disagree with the Wal-mart proposal, I do agree that whatever comes of the Gaines Street Plan it should be done in a way that complies with the "vision" and enhances our beloved City of Tallahassee.

[Go Gators]

And GG, it's not your "beloved DVR" I'm jealous of, "For the Record" it's your two TV's I covet. :

After reading all the post on this subject, I think we all agree on the fact we want a revitalized Gaines and we want it to be something nice and that we are proud to show-off. I think our main difference is the starting point. It is nice to see people passionate about the future of our city. That's always a good thing.