Gaines Street

[poonther]

If we try to create something artsy and inviting, like Park Avenue in Winter Park or the Mesa example,

[Florida]

What difference is there in living above a retail store, but not Wal-Mart? In a perfect world we'd be talking about a Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Trader Joes, Nike Store, Apple Retail Store, setting up shop along Gaines Street. But what I, and I think some others are saying is that we, being Tallahassee, can't at this time choose who wants to come here. I think Wal-Mart if this deal goes through, would just be step one, the good stuff will follow. This is just as important to me, Poonther, as you. I live an arm length from Gaines Street. I probably live closer to the project area than you do ... actually I think I do.

Locals want to live in the urban core too. But they also desire a look, and convienances they are accustomed to. Wal-Mart Neighborhood Marketplace can help to provide that. I have no beef with Wal-Mart's groceries (no pun intended), and I'm excited about having something like this downtown because I know it'll help attract the stores and restaurants I really want.

My question is why wasn't this argument struck when we heard Fallschase was building a Wal-Mart? If anything, I'd think we'd be arguing about that Wal-Mart location, less than 3 miles from Apalachee Parkway and not this simple Marketplace concept.

We could talk about many stores uprooting from locations building new facilities a few doors away leaving the other's vacant. But that's not something unique to Wal-Mart. I can count 3 times in the past 5 years that Publix has done this, 2 of those stores still remain empty.

Here are some images of Wal-Mart blending into the Urban Landscape:

[AlaninTally]

I agree poonther. The one in Winter Springs looks the best to me, but our Neighborhood Market (today, I accept the fact that this one will be built on Gaines, just for the sake of conversation) should not have parking up front and not be set way off of Gaines Street. My gut clenches at the idea of WAL-MART! (neighborhood market) looming over Gaines, but if it's done right and looks good, I can sorta accept it and hope for the best in what the future holds.

[Florida]

I agree poonther. The one in Winter Springs looks the best to me, but our Neighborhood Market (today, I accept the fact that this one will be built on Gaines, just for the sake of conversation) should not have parking up front and not be set way off of Gaines Street. My gut clenches at the idea of WAL-MART! (neighborhood market) looming over Gaines, but if it's done right and looks good, I can sorta accept it and hope for the best in what the future holds.

[Monticello-1827]

i hope our neighborhood market can pull in some cool arcitecture and not have a parking lot in FRONT of it. if they do that, they kill the entire area... i am optimistic that wal-mart can be intergrated into the Gaines plan as long as the powers that be in the city keep them closely reigned in...

anyone catch preston scott this morning? that man loves his wal-mart... but like it was said, you dance with those who want to dance or you don't dance at all... or in our case, develop gaines...

[poonther]

TJ, I hate to doubt you, but are you sure those are pix you posted are Neighborhood Markets? To me (and what do I know w/the way I got fooled yesterday by WTXL and their studio) they look like regular Wal-marts in Urban areas. If they are neighborhood markets, can you please tell me where they are located?

Thanks again.

[Florida]

TJ, I hate to doubt you, but are you sure those are pix you posted are Neighborhood Markets? To me (and what do I know w/the way I got fooled yesterday by WTXL and their studio) they look like regular Wal-marts in Urban areas. If they are neighborhood markets, can you please tell me where they are located?

Thanks again.

[poonther]

Perhaps you're right, Poonther. I did a search for the images of Urban Walmarts and I got that. It could be that they are regular stores, but they look much smaller than your standard Supercenter, which is why I made the assumption that they are Neighborhood Markets. I don't know what cities those were in but I'll find out soon.

[seminole]

Perhaps you're right, Poonther. I did a search for the images of Urban Walmarts and I got that. It could be that they are regular stores, but they look much smaller than your standard Supercenter, which is why I made the assumption that they are Neighborhood Markets. I don't know what cities those were in but I'll find out soon.

[Florida]

Straight from the Wal-Mart Website:

Wal-Mart Neighborhood Markets

Neighborhood Markets offer a convenient shopping experience for customers who need groceries, pharmaceuticals and general merchandise. Generally, they are located in markets with Wal-Mart Supercenters, supplementing a strong food distribution network and providing added convenience while maintaining Wal-Mart

[seminole]

These are both neighborhood markets in this picture.

[Florida]

This is the only image I've been able to find that specifically says "Neighborhood Market" as you can see its in an urban setting, but downtown in some other country.

But look at the unique interiors that are the typical for Wal-Mart's neighborhood markets:

those courtesy of the Wal-Mart website.

[bahmo]

I think I have seen a couple neighborhood markets in South Florida, though it may have been somewhere else (it's been awhile). Wherever they were, they looked nice and seemed to fit the area. So, I think Wal-Mart could put a store on Gaines that looks nice. I just think that you can't try to develop a "special" or "unique" place (whether it's big city streets like Michigan Ave or State St in Chicago or that pedestrian street in Denver, or whether it is smaller city examples like Tempe or Winter Park) and have Wal-Mart be its anchor. Artists, while often poor, seem a little too independent-minded to buy into such a creation.

Change the ultimate vision that the city is selling, and this could work great. Just don't offer the Hope Diamond and deliver the $199 Valentines Day set from Zales.

[Florida]

I think I have seen a couple neighborhood markets in South Florida, though it may have been somewhere else (it's been awhile). Wherever they were, they looked nice and seemed to fit the area. So, I think Wal-Mart could put a store on Gaines that looks nice. I just think that you can't try to develop a "special" or "unique" place (whether it's big city streets like Michigan Ave or State St in Chicago or that pedestrian street in Denver, or whether it is smaller city examples like Tempe or Winter Park) and have Wal-Mart be its anchor. Artists, while often poor, seem a little too independent-minded to buy into such a creation.

Change the ultimate vision that the city is selling, and this could work great. Just don't offer the Hope Diamond and deliver the $199 Valentines Day set from Zales.

[humzai]

I was a bit apprehensive at the idea of Walmart being one of the initial developments along Gaines Street but it seems that the neighborhood markets aren't the horrid stores that Walmart is known for. If it has to be a Walmart at the very least I hope it is a unique building that fits well into our hopes for Gaines St. I would prefer something like Wholefoods but we can only deal with those who are willing to help us. I don't see how a nice Walmart grocery store will be detrimental to the whole idea, to say that this one store will ruin the street is a bit far fetched. Lets just hope whatever happens the street develops into a vibrant beautiful success that other cities use as a benchmark for downtown revitilization.

[poonther]

Change the ultimate vision that the city is selling, and this could work great. Just don't offer the Hope Diamond and deliver the $199 Valentines Day set from Zales.

[mracca]

I am actually glad this came up. I havent seen this forum this ALIVE in a while! I am going to Orlado for a week next week, I think I remember seeing a Walmart Market place some were, I will see if I can find it and take some snap-shots.

[bahmo]

Let's hope they don't give those lots away for an ABC liquor, pawn shop, fast food restaurant, or gas station. Forgive me, but I have zero confidence that they make Gaines Street anything special. That already underwhelmed me with taking the #1 prime lot and putting a mid range hotel there. They are a dime a dozen in every mid to large city in America. Not the kind of thing that attract the crowds you want. COT just has a knack for blowing it.

[AlaninTally]

Yeah, I think it all boils down to how you interpret the "right way" to do Gaines Street. Sure, it can look nice and fit into a certain urbanized design scheme. But after that, what is exactly looking all pretty and urbanized? As bahmo mentioned, it could just be a Wal-mart, Subway, Walgreens, etc...Not exaclty blowing anybody away huh? It can certainly follow form and function, but that doesn't mean it becomes an adequate "destination area." I don't think of my trips to the grocery store, drug store and the like as a "destination" trip but I do think that of my soujourns to Railroad Square and the current small crop of funky stores on Gaines . Certainly, Gaines Street will have to have some level of retail and such that will serve the people that live in the area, but on a whole, I believe I was sold something a lot more unique and special. I hope that somehow the committee steps up to the plate and tries for "more" and I hope retailers that we don't have will give Tally a chance.

[psycuda]

I am actually glad this came up. I havent seen this forum this ALIVE in a while! I am going to Orlado for a week next week, I think I remember seeing a Walmart Market place some were, I will see if I can find it and take some snap-shots.

[Florida]

The whole reason the city purchased the key parcels along Gaines Street was to keep certain companies such as Walgreens, and CVS from coming along and throwing up their standard buildings. The city has control over whats going on. Having the city as the land owner, gives Tallahassee the opportunity to negotiate the design of anything that may come along as part of the contract of sale, wether its Residence Inn or Ritz Carlton, it must conform to our desires. That said, look at the other Residence Inn hotels around town, they look nothing like the one on Gaines Street for one good reason... because the city demanded more for Gaines. If left to Marriott, there would be no retail space on the ground floor of that facility, no brick paving on the side walk, nor the unique corner-capture design.

As the city puts out RFPs for the remaining parcels it continues to negotiate with these companies and developers for what's in the best interest of Tallahassee. They understand that we want higher quality in terms of retail, hotel, restaurant, but it's also important they we not let valuable property sit long when a good proposal comes along.

I try to live by the saying that "Perfect should not be the enemy of The Good".

[poonther]

COT failed IMHO to hold them to any landscaping design standards and no I'm not talking about the fact there are no palm trees here. I'm talking about the fact that the entire project at street level has NO landscaping at all, expect for 5 extremely small tea olives which don't grow that fast. Next time you drive past there, notice how stark the bldg. appears at street level. They've got a nice sidewalk there, but they need in the ground trees and very large potted plants lining the front especially around the entrance doors at RR & Gaines. This would really soften the look. They also showed landscaping in the renderings. In my past job as a planner, they'd never have gotten their C.O. w/out landscaping.

In a district like this, it's the little things that make the difference.

[Florida]

COT failed IMHO to hold them to any landscaping design standards and no I'm not talking about the fact there are no palm trees here. I'm talking about the fact that the entire project at street level has NO landscaping at all, expect for 5 extremely small tea olives which don't grow that fast. Next time you drive past there, notice how stark the bldg. appears at street level. They've got a nice sidewalk there, but they need in the ground trees and very large potted plants lining the front especially around the entrance doors at RR & Gaines. This would really soften the look. They also showed landscaping in the renderings. In my past job as a planner, they'd never have gotten their C.O. w/out landscaping.

In a district like this, it's the little things that make the difference.

[poonther]

Speaking of landscaping, I saw a crew of men out there in front of the hotel yesterday pulling up bricks and doing what appeared to be planting flowers.

[humzai]

I am now a bit ambivalent about the courting of Walmart for Gaines. Alan makes some very valid points I wonder if there is anything we can do to stop them from being approved. Maybe that group Tj is a part of could try and find some other retailer that was willing to build on Gaines or perhaps we put it in some time ourselves trying to track some retailer down.