Gaines Street

[cobyguy]

Because unlike the Commissioners, he doesn't answer to you. They do.

Damn that was quick- what are you doing at home on a saturday night? No one answers to me personally but they do answer to the people and they are accountable.

[cobyguy]

Damn that was quick- what are you doing at home on a saturday night? No one answers to me personally but they do answer to the people and they are accountable.

What scares me the most are staff positions who have set their own agenda and know they will survive the elections- who are they accountable to? Mr. Wright is staff. Who is he accountable to? Yes the commission, but when the "commision" are unsure about a decsion they fall back on staff. Mr. Wright is staff. So who is accountable to whom? You follow me here?

[Florida]

Mr Wright is accountable to Mrs Favors who is accountable to the 5 commissioners, them being accountable to us.

[cobyguy]

What scares me the most are staff positions who have set their own agenda and know they will survive the elections- who are they accountable to? Mr. Wright is staff. Who is he accountable to? Yes the commission, but when the "commision" are unsure about a decsion they fall back on staff. Mr. Wright is staff. So who is accountable to whom? You follow me here?

So how come the commision whom Mr. Wright works FOR does not hold him to task to present his argument to the people, the GSVC, the voters et al.? He has not done so. And why has he waited so long to do it. It just reeks of doing governments business outside the light of day.

One way streets do not help anyone except traffic engineers..... traffic engineers don't know squat about about business. They do know about moving cars rapidly!!! And efficiently.

[cobyguy]

yea yea spoke with michael wright @ the city about concerns with the project. he assured me that in no way the revised vision of gaines would take away from the destination appeal, mentioning that different means would be used to slow traffic and make it a ped friendly, biz friendly, live friendly. he also mentioned that his wifes father use to farm in the gaines st. corridor....i guess to empahasize his good steward approach to the revised plans. i asked him about setbacks but he referred to the developer having that decision....the city should require from the developer setbacks to create a truly ped friendly, cafe/rest. scene outside....

where i can i view the gsvc plans for the area. all i see online is the 2001 version...

wrote all commissioners and asked for comments and heard nada

that is the whole enchilada!

R I G H T....... trust but verify!!! show me his plan in writing.... He is so BS-ing you on this. Ask him to put it in writing and put it before the GSVC, and the people. He won't cuase he knows we will shoot it down cause its ill concieved. And he has certain power and control over the commision. Thats not how the peoples work is done!!!! Help me out here guys!

[gibson]

R I G H T....... trust but verify!!! show me his plan in writing.... He is so BS-ing you on this. Ask him to put it in writing and put it before the GSVC, and the people. He won't cuase he knows we will shoot it down cause its ill concieved. And he has certain power and control over the commision. Thats not how the peoples work is done!!!! Help me out here guys!

i will send out an email again and again to all commissioners and democrat stating what you have explained. were are we in this process? apparently there should be a new revised plan out by the end of the year? will keep writing the commission encouraging for the support of the gsvc's vision. cobyguy, which plan do you agree with....i know two way street, etc. , but does the gsvc have something i can see?

g

[cobyguy]

i will send out an email again and again to all commissioners and democrat stating what you have explained. were are we in this process? apparently there should be a new revised plan out by the end of the year? will keep writing the commission encouraging for the support of the gsvc's vision. cobyguy, which plan do you agree with....i know two way street, etc. , but does the gsvc have something i can see?

g

I'm working on getting that to you- yes the stuff on the cities site is very out dated. I know the revised plans exist somewhere in planning dept. but I would guess Craig Diamond or Dan Donovan would be a good place to start. They will help interpret all this for you too.

[gibson]

I'm working on getting that to you- yes the stuff on the cities site is very out dated. I know the revised plans exist somewhere in planning dept. but I would guess Craig Diamond or Dan Donovan would be a good place to start. They will help interpret all this for you too.

spoke with diamond.....he said the revised version would not be ready until later in the year.......my vision for gaines is that it not like downtown athens, with uga across the street, but to have a similar downtown vibe that says hey this is tally......

bye for now

[poonther]

You guys see this article today in the Democrat?

One-Way Gaines Street?

I will say that since I live right near a one-way that IMO traffic does fly on one-way. It gets so bad w/accidents that I've got 911 on speed dial.

[stjoe]

"A city proposal to turn Gaines Street, one of its busiest roads, into a one-way thoroughfare has come under fire from business and neighborhood groups worried about speeding."

Good, because this wasn't the kind of thing the original project proposed. This was the old switcharo...get the tax payer money and then do what you damn well please.

"Public Works Department staff say pairing Gaines and Madison streets into one-way roads, with Gaines flowing east and Madison flowing west, would give the city much-needed right-of-way along each street for improvements. The enhancements, such as wider sidewalks, trees and benches, are part of city plans to create an 18-hour downtown of shops and entertainment venues."

I think it is just about moving cars. This doesn't help pedistrians at ALL. Nice try by the city though.

"But opponents - including a citizens advisory panel on plans to revitalize the Gaines Street corridor - are worried that a one-way Gaines Street would scare off walkers and create a dangerous train of cars zipping past businesses."

Yup....pedestrians don't want to hang out between two 60 MPH corridors.

"Bill Woolery, the Gaines Street project manager at the Public Works Department, said that, at $16.6 million, the one-way proposal is a better deal."

What I thought, this is about money. I think they should give the taxpayers their money back then.

"The Downtown Improvement Authority, the special taxing district charged with achieving an 18-hour downtown, is also opposed to a one-way Gaines Street. In fact, the authority recommends turning Duval, Bronough, Calhoun, Gadsden, Pensacola and Call streets into two-way roads.

In a letter to the mayor, board Chairman Bill Moor listed the benefits of two-way streets, including slower traffic, better visibility for businesses, pedestrian security and appeal, and an "overall economic boost."

"If the stated desire is to provide retail as a part of the redevelopment of Gaines Street," Moor wrote, "a two-way street is preferable to allow direct travel to every destination and encourage a certain degree of congestion to make it feel exciting and attract people."

Gaines Street Revitalization was about people walking around and enjoying things. This new proposal is about moving cars around at 60-70 MPH (because that is what students and others will be doing). Period. You think I would walk around with my wife and kids with this? NO...and neither will others.

Bottom line....is this about making this area a "DESTINATION" spot for pedistrians with cafes, shops, music, arts, etc? Or is this about using the taxpayer money for it to move cars fast? I smell something fishy here from the city and it is not right. Strike number 1 was the hotel that did not fit into the original plans sold to us and this would be strike #2. I need to be able to trust the city when it proposes things and says it is goign to do one thing....this is COMPLETELY different then the plans originally proposed.

[caseyamcl]

Agreed.

Okay, so plans often change, but no good urban planner will advocate one-way streets. All the one-way street does is encourage traffic to move faster. But, I am belaboring the point here.

What I would rather do is put this into context. The FSU Master Plan (link) seems to imply that Gaines Street will be turned into a six-lane road vis-a-vis West Tennessee Street (I know: shudder) for the purpose of channeling large amounts of traffic around campus rather than through it.

And now, of course, this.

Thus, it seems that there are a number of forces attempting to make Gaines Street nothing more than another river of cars, similar to Tennessee Street (which, by the way, is refered to as "The Gauntlet" by students who live north of campus, because they refuse to cross the vast automotive sea that is Tennessee on foot or on bike, forcing them to drive to campus).

Making Gaines Street nothing more than a car trasnport mechanism undermines the supposed goal of the city to create real, livable communities.

Sounds to me like the city is being run by traffic engineers.

[poonther]

Anyone know TK's or FSU's position/preference on Gaines Street?

[stjoe]

Anyone know TK's or FSU's position/preference on Gaines Street?

See the Master Plan link. THey wanted to expand the main campus to Gaines Street, so I think the one way idea would be something that FSU would very much NOT like.

[AlaninTally]

St. Joe,

I smell a letter to the editor and you are just the person to do it. Your post yesterday concerning the article in the Democrat would be a perfect response.

[poonther]

See the Master Plan link. THey wanted to expand the main campus to Gaines Street, so I think the one way idea would be something that FSU would very much NOT like.

I've looked at the FSU Master Plan in detail for years.

That would be my thoughts too, but from what I think cobyguy has said b4, the FSU golden chiefs (or whatever their names are) want the one-ways to help them get to and from Doak faster. Has FSU or will they take an official position on this and make it public? I sure can't imagine TK being quiet about anything he doesn't like.

[stjoe]

I've looked at the FSU Master Plan in detail for years.

That would be my thoughts too, but from what I think cobyguy has said b4, the FSU golden chiefs (or whatever their names are) want the one-ways to help them get to and from Doak faster. Has FSU or will they take an official position on this and make it public? I sure can't imagine TK being quiet about anything he doesn't like.

I think cobyguy was guessing that some golden chiefs have some power over the city. If FSU doens't, and example after example shows they have little, then it is highly doubtful a handful of people that live in Killearn are affecting this.

FSU has not taken an official position that I am aware of on this. I believe TK is quiet on many things honestly. Because he realizes from past experiences that he only has so much pull in Tally. The times he spoke before he didn't get what he wanted, so it is possible he is not saying anything now. I think a more realistic reality is that he simply isn't paying attention truthfully. If he was, he would of pushed the city HARD to allow FSU to buy the lot the new motel is going up on. Because as you can see from the master plan, FSU wanted to expand to Gaines Street....and it still will...it will just take a LONG time now. But that is proof for me that shows TK is not very active in this process.

The 1 lane/2 lane situation on Gaines Street has to do with the COT. For some reason, the original plan of making this an "Entertainment District" (as noted on the sub title of this thread) or a "Destination" area simply is being ignored now. I have NO idea why. I long have questioned what was taking so long (this has been in the works since 93) and it seems now that the COT just has no idea what it is doing....it still doesn't know WHAT it wants to do after 13 years. This is a COT issue and I think they will wind up with little to no success in what they originally sold the taxpayers on. It is a shame, this could of been a crown jewel of Tallahassee. Good intentions are fine, but when spending limited taxpayer monies, they are not enough.

[cobyguy]

I've looked at the FSU Master Plan in detail for years.

That would be my thoughts too, but from what I think cobyguy has said b4, the FSU golden chiefs (or whatever their names are) want the one-ways to help them get to and from Doak faster. Has FSU or will they take an official position on this and make it public? I sure can't imagine TK being quiet about anything he doesn't like.

The FSU boosters, Alumni Association and G'Chiefs along with the forces driving the FSU Master plan are a HUGE influence on how things turn out on Gaines. So are big money developers. Yes its about the money and the hell with the folks who voted for the tax hike, serve on the Gaines Street Committee, own small businesses along Gaines, etc......

Thank You all for giving this dilema some critical thought- Please voice your concerns to the Democrat, TheCommisions etc.... Your opinions will have extra value coming from city planners. May be we can organize the City Planners for Gaines Street.org

Ruth Warton- (married to the Sause Boss) is President of GSVC. She said there will be an article coming in Sunday's paper also. Look for it. Send your questions to the paper before then.

Gerald Ensley is writing a column about Gaines for Sunday's paper. If you want to put in your two cents, give him a call at 599-2310. I spent about 45 minutes talking to him today.

Thanks,

Ruth Wharton (on Bill's computer)

[poonther]

Hey cobyguy while we may disagree about the Residence Inn, I've never been in favor or Gaines going one-way. So at your request I emailed Mr. Ensley just now over at the Democrat and told him my views on the proposal to go one way. One of the main things I expressed was that it's simply crazy to redesign Gaines for the "fat cat" boosters to fly to and from Doak for just what.....8 days a year? While Gaines could become a jewel 365 days a year. Anyway just wanted to let you guys know I did speak out on this one. Thanks for the heads up!

Oh yeah I'll take that letter now and forward it to all the commissioners.

[Florida]

Has anyone here ever driven in downtown Fort Lauderdale along the shoreline (I can't think of the name of the road) but I remember it being one lane in each direction seperated by a landscaped median with palms, the beach on one side the shops and stores on the other. It was very nice and its what I picture when I look at these pictures:

This is the way it was to be. What became of this plan? I've not recieved any notice of changes on this project nor have I seen any material in the agenda about it. But if it comes before the city commission, like I did for ADAR, and Fallschase, I will speak at the meeting if need-be.

[poonther]

Hey TJ I'm going to Lauderdale tomorrow. I'm not exactlysure what street you are talking about. It really sounds like Las Olas Blvd. and part of it does look like the pictures. Most of Las Olas is four laned w/landscaped median in the middle and shops on both sides. However Las Olas takes you to the beach but does not have the beach on one side of it. The only street in all of Broward that has the beach on one side is A1A and in Lauderdale most of it is one-way w/three lanes of traffic but no median.

[Florida]

That's it! Las Olas Blvd. And now that I think about it, it was four lanes... its just that one of the lanes wasn't moving that day. Thanks for that, it was bothering me that I couldn't remember Poonther.

[poonther]

OK here's the reply I got from G. Ensley over at the Democrat. He does make a good point about the "fat cats" already having their one-way after footballs games. I'd not really thought about that one.

Question: Did the original plan for Gaines call for a one-way?

Looks like he's taking the middle ground. Of course a few weeks back he defended Proctor, so he's accustom to defending "turds."

"Thanks for writing.

I suspect you won't like my column, as I have tried to be down the middle and give both sides of the argument - which includes city planners' assertion that there are ways to do one-ways to make them less than racetracks.

For what it's worth, I don't believe FSU "fat cats" have anything to do with this: Gaines Street is already temporarily turned into a one-way after games now.

I guess I would also note that what was originally "promised" to Tallahassee was a one-way Gaines.

Whether returning to that concept will happen - or whether it is smart or stupid - remains to be seen.

Thanks for writing.

Gerald Ensley"

I sent the same letter to the entire City Council, but haven't heard back from them nor do I expect them to which is fine.

[cobyguy]

Gaines may originally have been proposed as one way before 1993- but all that should have changed with the recommendations of GSVC, Wallace, Roberts & Todd and all the thousands of tax payers who said build it like its shown and we will vote for the tax increase.

Based on how you describe it- Las Olas in technically a two way street with multiple lanes in BOTH directions with trees down the middle. I'm good with that. For that matter I am good with a Monroe street model. Trees along side, bump outs, raised medians pull in parking spots, its a state road too. like gaines. Lots of activity and more expected. OK on game days turn a two way Gaines into a one way but not 365days. Look how desolate Duval, Gadsden, and Bronough are now as "one way"- raceways. Any new development if FORCED to conform to suburban design standards that accomodate the CAR not the pedestrian. Pedestrians are forced away from the curb behind the parking lot. where its safe. If you build the streets safer than everyone can coexist at the sidewalk next to the curb- thats called STREETSCAPE. It works all over the world. The data is out there. And the annectdotal real world evidence is there too. One ways are only good for moving cars through a place- not creating a "place." People flock to Monroe street- North and South. Because it creates multiple points of access and exit. One way streets do not!

Thanks for giving this some thought and sticking up for your well founded thinking. Keep those letters flying- send these post to other organizations who will be impacted by this. Do you know any architects who take this seriously? Corri

[csmurphy8885]

anyone try to bike monroe, or cross it at college, or gaines?! ITs a crazy road for 12 hours a day. Image it if it actually was a destination... with actual stores? It would have this dangerous traffic 18hrs a day (haha, tied it in)

I like the streetside parking, its a barrier between walker and driver, but its way anti-bike! Awsome for retail... bad for hardtail.

[cobyguy]

anyone try to bike monroe, or cross it at college, or gaines?! ITs a crazy road for 12 hours a day. Image it if it actually was a destination... with actual stores? It would have this dangerous traffic 18hrs a day (haha, tied it in)

I like the streetside parking, its a barrier between walker and driver, but its way anti-bike! Awsome for retail... bad for hardtail.

Biking is extremely dangerous on any street in Tallahassee. The bike lanes are becoming passing lanes cause drivers and the general population have no respect for Bikes or Peds or each other for that matter. Make traffic slow down is the only way to be safe. Building wider streets with lots of space between the buildings and the streets is NOT the solution. We don't have enough land in the central core for that. And we should not try to emminent domain it either. That kills the cozyness of the street scape.

I see lots of bikers in Manhattan. Probably the highest accident rate for biking too. They still keep coming. Oh and how do folks in Holland do it? They have canals, LOTS of pedestrians, small street, heavy traffic, trolleys, and two bikes for every household. (I wiped out a girl on a bike once when I open a taxi door on the bike lane side- how do you say "I'm a dumb ass in Dutch?" Yes I had just left a coffee shop- If that helps.) Another thing in Holland and ALL over Europe- their is an ingrained sence of personal responsability for one's own actions. They would never knowingly do anything to anyone or themselves that would cause harm. Thats why the drinking ages are low. The attitudes toward recreational drugs are liberal, driving is controlled chaos- No one expects to be looked out for- Everyone is expected to THINK- (wow what a concept) and they assume equal resonsability in an accident. Penalties are severe and expensive. Here we always assume we are innocent, insurance will bail us out, and the other guy real is at fault and the goverment should have protected me anyway.

The Dutch do it because they figured out a solution that accomodates multiple forms of transport. Not just one. If americans got out of their cars more often and walked/biked it would probably solve the obesity problem too. I don't remember seeing fat europeans that often. I go to europe twice a year and have been going (and will continue to do so) (same verb tense ) for the last 6 years.