Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[cltbwimob]

I'd much rather NOT gain any flights, or even shrink a little bit if it meant keeping most of our international flights.

 

I can't help but think that one of three things happened with the B expansion:

 

1. Someone from CLT released the information too early.

2. AA told CLT that an expansion was not needed and wasn't going to fund the operation OR did not want fees to increase.

3. Canceling of the expansion is CLT's way of punishing AA for canceling GIG, and to keep AA in the palm of their hands.

True indeed regarding international flights. I was just stating that adding ten cities from Charlotte will be concrete proof of AA's commitment to Charlotte.

[LKN704]

^I agree.

 

I do hope that they still begin to refurbish the concourses though, especially A/B/C.

 

Also, at this point, I am going to speculate that the International Concourse will not be built, or at least will be postponed. I also stand by my belief that LIS/MAN/BRU will be discontinued after this summer season.

[15895]

^I agree.

I do hope that they still begin to refurbish the concourses though, especially A/B/C.

Also, at this point, I am going to speculate that the International Concourse will not be built, or at least will be postponed. I also stand by my belief that LIS/MAN/BRU will be discontinued after this summer season.

International IMO could happen. I know sometimes it can bottleneck over at E and perhaps make operations more efficient.

And don't worry about our hub status; worry about transcontinental and international flights. Each hub has a role. Philadelphia will probably have no flights to Douth America, Miami, LA and Dallas won't have many flights to Europe.

Charlotte will do what we usually do, move people to/through the south.

I mean, like 6 years ago we only had London, Frankfurt and Munich.

At US Air, they were touting the entire country through Charlotte and Philadelphia. Now we got LA, NYC, Miami, Chicago, Dallas and Philadelphia.

[HopHead]

^I agree.

 

I do hope that they still begin to refurbish the concourses though, especially A/B/C.

 

Also, at this point, I am going to speculate that the International Concourse will not be built, or at least will be postponed. I also stand by my belief that LIS/MAN/BRU will be discontinued after this summer season.

 

Not sure why the cancellation of a route to a single destination, that just so happens to be on the chopping block at other airports, would fuel any speculation about the International Terminal not being built. It was just mentioned about a month ago that work on that new Terminal would commence at year end after the new rental car facility was up and running. Which is actually sooner than originally anticipated. 

[ah59396]

Not sure why the cancellation of a route to a single destination, that just so happens to be on the chopping block at other airports, would fuel any speculation about the International Terminal not being built. It was just mentioned about a month ago that work on that new Terminal would commence at year end after the new rental car facility was up and running. Which is actually sooner than originally anticipated. 

 

 

I agree.  It certainly isn't great news, but the sky isn't falling.  We are still a hub and still one of the fastest growing cities in the United States.  The "Dougie" is the largest airport in any direction for 250 miles and we have 7.3 million people living within 100 miles.  At some point we will need an International terminal one way or another.

[ChessieCat]

I'd much rather NOT gain any flights, or even shrink a little bit if it meant keeping most of our international flights.

 

I can't help but think that one of three things happened with the B expansion:

 

1. Someone from CLT released the information too early.

2. AA told CLT that an expansion was not needed and wasn't going to fund the operation OR did not want fees to increase.

3. Canceling of the expansion is CLT's way of punishing AA for canceling GIG, and to keep AA in the palm of their hands.

 

Good analysis, I agree with #2.  I think AA and CLT want to avoid the nightmare scenario of what happened at Lambert-STL, where the latter had all these expectations of expanding into a major international hub, only to completely lose that status and be saddled with the cost of an unnecessary new runway. But give credit to Lambert for building a LRT connection in 1994, something that CLT (correct if wrong) unfortunately is not incorporating into its expansion plans.

Edited February 4, 2014 by ChessieCat

[atlrvr]

^ I think the idea that someone at Amercian HQ in Dallas read the Charlotte Observer, notified the CEO/CFO that CLT planned to expand Concourse B, and that they picked up the phone called CLT airport management and told them "no, don't do it", and that the airport then reached out to the Observer all within a couple of hours is a laughable concept.

 

It sounds like people are trying to do some simple math (cancelled RIO + Concourse B expansion delay = Charlotte losing hub).....Charlotte lost Honolulu and Albequerque within the last few years because they weren't profitable. 

[15895]

Good analysis, I agree with #2. I think AA and CLT want to avoid the nightmare scenario of what happened at Lambert-STL, where the latter had all these expectations of expanding into a major international hub, only to completely lose that status and be saddled with the cost of an unnecessary new runway and terminal infrastructure. But give credit to Lambert for building a LRT connection in 1994, something that CLT is (correct if wrong) unfortunately not incorporating into its expansion plans

Correct, it's illegal for Dougie (thanks for that name Ah ) to use funds for something that is for anything other than the airport.

So the best Dougie can do is lay tracks like Elizabeth Avenue on airport property...

There's also political repercussion from state GOP for ever doing that

Edited February 4, 2014 by AirNostrumMAD

[ChessieCat]

Correct, it's illegal for Dougie (thanks for that name Ah ) to use funds for something that is for anything other than the airport.

So the best Dougie can do is lay tracks like Elizabeth Avenue on airport property...

There's also political repercussion from state GOP for ever doing that

You are correct the best CLT can do is create an unused underground ROW and terminus for LRT but there would he huge political repercussions for even attempting to spend airport bond $$ on that...

 

IMO it is sad that airports like Cleveland Hopkins which built the first rail connection to any airport in North America (1968!) will lose its hub (United). In fact Cleveland was one of the most proactive cities in building rail transit to try and compete with Chicago and the East Coast.. I guess they couldn't avoid their location or moniker as the Mistake on the Lake.  Geography matters...

Edited February 4, 2014 by ChessieCat

[allthingsplanes]

^ I think the idea that someone at Amercian HQ in Dallas read the Charlotte Observer, notified the CEO/CFO that CLT planned to expand Concourse B, and that they picked up the phone called CLT airport management and told them "no, don't do it", and that the airport then reached out to the Observer all within a couple of hours is a laughable concept.

 

It sounds like people are trying to do some simple math (cancelled RIO + Concourse B expansion delay = Charlotte losing hub).....Charlotte lost Honolulu and Albequerque within the last few years because they weren't profitable. 

 

I agree completely.  I don't think that this has anything to do with American.  There have been multiple updates to the CLT 2015 plan that happened AFTER the merger was really in the works, including the fact that they bumped up the timeline for doing the international terminal.  If anything, it seemed more like Parker and others had said that it would be more important for them to build that.

 

I could be totally wrong but do not believe that American is giving CLT any indications that it will lose significant amounts of service.  Remember - it's mostly ex-US execs that are in charge.  They clearly think positively of our airport.

[LKN704]

Funny CLE is mentioned. I rode the subway from CLE to Downtown a couple of months ago-and I was the only person on the train leaving the airport.

 

Again, I don't think that CLT will be dehubbed. Dehubbing CLT will be basically handing over the keys to the Southeast to DL. But, I think 700 flights a day is unreasonable. I think all AA hubs will be rationalized during the merger, especially PHX and ORD. Remember that US for several years had no Midwest hub. CLT was basically both a Midwest and Southeast hub for US. You have to factor in that some flights to the West Coast (I am thinking SMF and PDX) will likely be dropped, just like DFW will probably lose flights to several smaller cities in favor of CLT. The 700 flights a day is probably just a smoke-screen to divert attention away from the loss of GIG, which the media hasn't really paid much attention to.

 

I'm interested to see the schedule of not only CLT but also other AA hubs once cross-fleeting occurs. I can't wait to see more 738s in CLT. I see 738s replacing A321s on a lot of routes, especially those to the Northeast.

 

And US never flew CLT-ABQ. They flew CLT-TUS which lasted about a year before being dropped.

Edited February 4, 2014 by LKN704

[ChessieCat]

^Agreed CLT can't be de-hubbed, not with SkyTeam controlling ATL and Star Alliance controlling IAD.  

 

Will be happy to see US retire its 734 fleet on routes like CLT-BWI. They've already upped the ante with 752's to better compete with SWA...

 

The midwest as we've learned can only support the two hubs at ORD and a fortress hub like DTW for Skyteam, and even that one will lose international flights.  Basically, lesser hubs can only support Int'l service when Open Skies agreements are NOT in place.

 

CLE is indeed a sad story, you can't blame their leadership for a lack of vision like connecting the airport to the rapid transit system in 1968! 

Edited February 4, 2014 by ChessieCat

[LKN704]

^I hold a special place in my heart for those 734s for some reason. I find them surprisingly comfortable, especially in the exit rows. Going to be sad when those old birds are retired.

 

Off topic on CLE, the writing was on the wall when the merger was completed. Way to close to ORD. IMHO, PHX will face the same fate in 4 years.

[ChessieCat]

Thanks to MilZ for posting this in Transit Plan forum:

http://cltdevelopment.blogspot.com/2014/02/council-member-forget-streetcar-build.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

CLT is the busiest US airport without a rail connection at least on the drawing board:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_the_United_States

 

LAX just broke ground on the Crenshaw/LAX line on 1/21.  MIA, DFW, DEN, and IAD have all broken ground on their projects.

 

IAH and DTW are too distant from their city centers to be considered at this time.  HOU is more feasible anyway, but United would fight it like they fought International flights on SWA. 

 

LAS doesn't have the $$ to extend the bankrupt Monorail.

 

LGA ironically should have a connection but the $8.3B East Side access is a black hole right now for NYC.

 

MCO and TPA are studying it.  FLL technically has Tri-Rail service.

 

CLT?  You can't blame Fallon for at least wanting to start some dialogue...

Edited February 4, 2014 by ChessieCat

[LKN704]

I agree that CLT should have some sort of rail transit to uptown. IIRC, however, initial ridership projects to the airport were low, lower than any other transit corridor in Charlotte.

 

CLT really needs to improve the visibility of transit in the airport as well. There is almost no signage directing you to the sprinter.

[15895]

That doesn't take away my worry about our flights to Europe and South America; Munich, 2X Frankfurt, Rome, Madrid, Dublin, London, Sao Paulo, and Rio.

There have been numerous, numerous articles for the past Year that I do not feel like sifting through as I know for a fact I've read them in the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, FT. Worth Star,etc. As I've said I believe for the past year, we could grow (Especially to American Strong holds such as Oklahoma city. Charlotte has no direct flights to Oklahoma city... So in theory, we could grow in destinations, flights, and passengers for a year round multiple daily flights to cities such as Oklahoma city and still lose service to an exotic destination. I like our exotic destinations and I do not want to lose them. Merger or Bankruptcy...

The only thing I can think of as Charlottes saving grace is American's widebody fleet. I wonder how well they utilize their long haul aircraft.

No doubt though, we will gain cities such as Oklahoma City. If US Airways gets approved for Washington DC - Oklahoma City, US will start Charlotte-OKC and probaby OKC to Philadelphia and Phoenix. Some stations just aren't worth opening for a couple of daily flights. A merger with American changes that.

I'm not beig cynical when I say I believe American rejected the expansion. I believe US green lighted it pre-merger and post merger thumbs down.

I believe I was called Mr. "Doom and gloom" when I predicted our international flights for the most part would disappear. And people were talking about flights to Tokyo etc....

This is Just another thing I think. But it's not like in naive enough to think "oh hey Parker just called and told the observer expansions off" ......

I believe expansion will be curbed and I still predict our longhaul flights will be cut down to the bones with gains to cities such as OKC

Edited February 4, 2014 by AirNostrumMAD

[ah59396]

It's not that you are "Mr. Doom and Gloom", Air, it's more that we don't want to believe it even though the writing is on the wall. I'll stick with my ignorant bliss. Have fun with your fancy facts and knowledge!!! Ha!

[LKN704]

And remember that even if/when flights are cut, there is always a silver lining. AA tends to have very nice terminals/concourses in their hub cities, so they will likely refurbish parts of the terminal as well. Plus, you can pretty much bet that BA will resume service here, even though I have been saying that for forever, I am sure it is coming.

Edited February 5, 2014 by LKN704

[15895]

It's not that you are "Mr. Doom and Gloom", Air, it's more that we don't want to believe it even though the writing is on the wall. I'll stick with my ignorant bliss. Have fun with your fancy facts and knowledge!!! Ha!

Really though, it's a net gain. Most of our international routes are daily a few months out of the year.

It's just a little prestigious to have flights (even if seasonal) to Lisbon or Brussels.

And I don't have fancy facts nor work for the airlines. I have opinions. Most other subjects on this bored in not well-rehearsed in and seek out others opinions - or fancy facts - to know whats going on.

But if we want to be in bliss; Charlotte will get a flight to Tokyo on the lower capacity 787's that ate very fuel efficient, JAL is a partner of American, so it will be a hub to hub flight.

Edited February 5, 2014 by AirNostrumMAD

[Miesian Corners]

Much ado about nothing, really.  As I said earlier in this thread, several other carriers dropped GIG service because it's not profitable.  In the past decade, US has dropped service to Stockholm, Oslo, and Milan.  They were all from PHL.  No one batted an eye.  

 

BIG rumor at the airport among those "in the know" is that AA will add a 4X weekly flights from CLT to ARN (Stockholm) in early 2015.  Seems there's been heavy lobbying from Electrolux to get this moving.  Under the guise of what AA does for Glaxo Smith Klein in Raleigh, there could be a kernel of truth to the rumor (GSM guarantees a certain number of seats on a weekly basis and AA provides them with a daily 767 from RDU to LHR).  

 

As for the B Concourse expansion, it is going to happen and it will be sooner than later.  The airline doesn't have enough mainline gates as it is and design is well underway.  US Airways and the city relocated flight attendant and pilot crew lounges in August from the end of B to the end of C to accommodate construction.  What this seems to be is sloppy journalism. The B expansion has been on the airport website for two years now and the O just picked it up.  Sad little newspaper.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Miesian Corners

[Miesian Corners]

And one more thing, Mark Washburn is an idiot. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/02/04/4663608/welcome-to-the-airport-stick-em.html#.UvJGefldV8E

[15895]

^ lol... "remember who you serve" ..... I hate that phrase.

I'm not sure why people insist we trip over a dollar to save a penny.

[Guest]

Mark has always been an idiot screaming at himself in the mirror.

[allthingsplanes]

Much ado about nothing, really.  As I said earlier in this thread, several other carriers dropped GIG service because it's not profitable.  In the past decade, US has dropped service to Stockholm, Oslo, and Milan.  They were all from PHL.  No one batted an eye.  

 

BIG rumor at the airport among those "in the know" is that AA will add a 4X weekly flights from CLT to ARL (Stockholm) in early 2015.  Seems there's been heavy lobbying from Electrolux to get this moving.  Under the guise of what AA does for Glaxo Smith Klein in Raleigh, there could be a kernel of truth to the rumor (GSM guarantees a certain number of seats on a weekly basis and AA provides them with a daily 767 from RDU to LHR).  

 

As for the B Concourse expansion, it is going to happen and it will be sooner than later.  The airline doesn't have enough mainline gates as it is and design is well underway.  US Airways and the city relocated flight attendant and pilot crew lounges in August from the end of B to the end of C to accommodate construction.  What this seems to be is sloppy journalism. The B expansion has been on the airport website for two years now and the O just picked it up.  Sad little newspaper.

 

Thanks for this.  As I suspected, the "error" by the Observer was not an indicator of anything bad.  It's frankly amazing how much work the airport is doing all at once...

 

And it would be awesome to land that flight!

[LKN704]

I have a friend who works for Electrolux, and he told me they have been pushing hard for flights to ARN, and have been in talks with "airlines". I laughed when he told me that, but it must be pretty serious if more than a couple people at Electrolux know about it. I could see 3-4x weekly on a 763.

 

These days, airlines will fly almost any route if someone is willing to pick up part of the tab.

Edited February 5, 2014 by LKN704