SouthEnd Midrise Projects

[Reverie39]

21 hours ago, RANYC said:

Well, if this is a Birkdale Village-looking project, I'm all for it.  Sidebar: Would love to see these "urban villages" anchoring all our core center-city districts in the city and centered around a "public square gathering spot" to give these districts a sense of authentic civic identity/heritage through some sort of a public-private partnership  an incentivization framework. Just a thought.

I feel like this concept of urban villages is what exists in Arlington, VA and it works fabulously there

[kermit]

Its been so long that I have forgotten the source, but there have been rumors of Wegman’s anchoring this Clanton rd site for more than a year (perhaps two or three). IIRC, the anchor grocery was rendered to form a wall which shields the remainder of the site from I-77 noise. 

I am only sharing because it has been more than a year now (long past the statute of limitations for rumors IMO), and I think the Wegmans part of the rumor was the least substantiated portion of the stories I heard about this site. However, the site has gotta have a grocery anchor to work ad both Publix and Teeter are too close for them to consider another store here. I would also bet that Interstate adjacency would make this an attractive place for the first Wegmans in the market. Any grocery box here is also going to be too big for a specialty grocer (TJ’s, Whole Foods, Earth Fare, Sprouts, etc.). Ain't gonna be a Wal-Mart, but I could  see Target being a good fit for this site.

I have absolutely no information about this project beyond these very stale rumors so none of this post is worth much.

Edited December 6, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I feel like this concept of urban villages is what exists in Arlington, VA and it works fabulously there

Disagree on that. The close-in NoVa & MD suburbs are pretty urban. I wouldn’t consider those urban villages. 

Mosaic District in Merrifield comes to mind as an urban village though it’s smaller on the scale of Birkdale Village. 

If we consider things like Atlantic Station in Atlanta as an urban village, I’d say Reston Town Center (home to the tallest residential in the metro area at 40 floors, North American BMW HQ, etc) is a much better example. Has plenty of retail, movie theatre, Apple Store, etc. They’re still building out across the toll road but the urban Wegmans is there too (integrated under an apartment building. It’s still pretty isolated in a wasteland of empty lots but a lot of the construction will commence at the same time on the next phases) 

Ive been mentioning an urban wegmans for a while in this exact area. But it was based on folks here wanting a wegmans and automatically assuming it’d have to be a typical suburban format. Drew a little map circling an area around Remount & Clanton and showed examples like this (which too is urban-village-y vibes) recently built in Alexandria, VA. But the below is what comes to my mind when I hear “urban village” and what I imagine for the site in discussion. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Windsurfer]

Would be cool if they could run a spur over to it from South Blvd.  

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

Would be cool if they could run a spur over to it from South Blvd.  

a light rail spur? It’s only .3 miles from the current alignment

[ArchiCLT]

Does anyone know the actual extent of this redevelopment?

You know you're getting old when you were involved with numerous upfits in SEBP over the years. My firm designed Anixter/Wesco's 50k sf warehouse on the north/east side of Trade Park Ct just 6 years ago in 2017.

[RANYC]

more of this concept in this link --->>> https://www.juliusbaer.com/en/insights/future-insights/future-cities/top-10-modern-city-squares-in-the-world/

public squares as places to gather, to connect, meeting points between friends, places of activation, places for cultural, social, and even political expression...

they're not quite parks in the way we've generally thought of them in charlotte.  They're hard-scaped (although they can be covered in canopy), and sizable enough to be a immersive part of the urban landscape.  we're not talking polk park (or hugh mccall park) size here either.  something the size of first ward park but, again, hard-scaped versus centered around a big, grassy lawn, and designed to encourage regular community gathering and activation.

of course, this isn't the sort of element you look for in peer cities in America.  it is, however, an absolutely vital part of livability thriving amidst urban density.  such plazas are go-to spots for tourists and go-to spots for locals showing off authentic place-making in their cities.  these squares tend to be surrounded on all sides by buildings whose fronts serve to create an structurally urban framing of the street.  also, these squares are accessed by foot, bike, and transit only.  there are no adjacent parking lots of or parking garages.  instead, these plazas are occupied by occupied structures and the promise of the entire context is to prioritize the pedestrian both in its appeal and in its accessibility.

Edited December 6, 2023 by RANYC

[Windsurfer]

8 hours ago, MothBeast said:

a light rail spur? It’s only .3 miles from the current alignment

That's a lot closer than I realized.  Cool. Maybe some folks will use it. 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Windsurfer

[Reverie39]

New Google Maps/Earth imagery shows just how much the South End midrises are fully wrapping around Wilmore now. This is an amazing stretch of density.

[Guest]

Aaaand it’s gone. Google earth satellite imagery reverted for some reason 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by MothBeast

[MarcoPolo]

I believe a bit of clarification regarding terminology may help this thread along.  Reverie39 and AirNostrumMAD had a back and forth pertaining to the word "urban village".    Much to unpack with this one term alone, starting with the true definition of "village".   I think doing so will assist in furthering the discussions here, many of which are interesting and insightful    Warning, this is going to be lengthy so keep scrolling if short on time, or interest.  I won't geek out with much detail and jargon.  If anyone cares I can do so off-line. 

In urban design world, a "village" is defined as a settlement surrounded by nature and/or agriculture.  In size and vitality, it is larger in area, population, and activity than a "hamlet", which is defined as a settlement arranged immediately adjacent to, or straddling a crossroads, (the smallest scale of community).   A village is approximately a 5-minute walk from its center to its edge.  The center is the civic and commercial heart of the settlement.  The edge is its boundary with nature and/or an agrarian hinterland.  This pattern of settlement can be seen across time, cultures, and climates.  It is remarkably consistent.   Back in the day, (and still possible even now in some countries), a villager would access almost every daily need, and live a full life from cradle to grave, within the boundaries of his or her "village".   It is the most resilient and fundamental building block for true urbanism and the corner stone of “place making”.   The current crop of concepts bandied about in media and press such as pedestrian sheds, and the latest, the 15-minute City, originated from the DNA of the village.    

The next level up is the Town, and it is here where a very interesting evolution to the village occurs, as far as urban design goes.  As a village grows, and can no longer adequately sustain the needs of its existing and newer residents, the growth is channeled into the creation of an additional village or villages, not by unpacking the elements of the original village and spreading these across larger areas, say for example just constructing new housing without supporting shops, or places of work in tow, (hint hint....the model for building suburbia today).   A comparable analogy is cell replication in organisms.  An organism does not grow by adding bits and pieces of the original cell adjacent to the first cell so as to surround itself with chunks of membrane, free floating nucleic acids, and various random bits of its guts, (Frankenstein like), that were nicely arranged to create life within the first cell.   No, it replicates the first cell in full, adding more and more complete cells as it grows.  Villages grow into towns the same way.  A second center would be built, the same fabric would surround it, and the daily lives of the residents in this new 5-minute walking shed would be supported within it.   The precise point when a village flips to Town status is not a hard line, but many would agree that once two, or more distinct villages abut one another, a Town is born...and in this birth, the villages become neighborhoods within the larger "Town".   So, to recap, a neighborhood is the same as a village but having common boundaries with another village or villages, and a village is the same as a neighborhood, but standing free from other villages in the countryside.   This is not merely urban design speak.  The historical evidence of this pattern can be witnessed in the place names of parts of cities today.  For example, Greenwich Village in NYC was once the Village of Greenwich, before it became a neighborhood in the ever expanding neighborhood fabric of NYC on its march up Manhattan island.  Much of London is the amalgamation of dozens of older villages that grew together over time into the City of London we know today.   Similar patterns exist in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.  The outline of neighborhoods can be detected across pre car urban fabric from Google Earth imagery if one knows what to look for.

In addition to being defined differently by urban planners, there is also a design difference between a village and a neighborhood, that is also supported by real world examples.  Typically a village's center is located in the geographic center of the settlement unless some natural feature exists to alter this pattern.   Neighborhoods on the other hand have their centers along their edges, abutting major thoroughfares.  Major thoroughfares typically become the boundaries between neighborhoods, and contain the commercial hubs that service them, ie: Main Streets.  The actual physical "center" of the neighborhood becomes the location for parks or civic uses, such as a church or school for the residents of the neighborhood because it is less hectic than the commercial main streets along the perimeter boundaries.  This design alteration occurs for the all the subsequent new neighborhood additions for places that grow even larger and achieve the next level of settlement, the City.  A City is an amalgamation of towns, which themselves  are a quilt of neighborhoods.  

The cancer that killed this elegant structure and way of life was primarily the invention of the car and the priority it was given to dictate how all settlements are built.  Before the car even more modern forms of travel, beyond foot, horse, and carriage, such as the train, trolley and subway, respected the design DNA of the village/neighborhood.  The car shattered it.  The size of the pre-car fabric of a village, town, or city is a good indicator of its overall vitality, resiliency, and attractiveness today.   Settlements that grew mostly post-car grew analogous to a cell that replicated by vomiting out its internal parts, such as can be seen in most parts of the southern and western US for example.  The car enabled the breakdown and dispersal of all the parts of villages and neighborhoods into purpose built, single use, limited access versions of “place”.  The result is suburbia....an amalgamation of placeless-ness. 

Within the vast suburban shag carpet of placeless-ness surrounding the rare pre-car oases of urbanism in cities that grew big post-car, such as Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Raleigh, Houston…etc, etc…., opportunities occasionally present themselves to repurpose underutilized lands, typically in the least desirable areas of the community at first.  South End is such as example.  So is NoDa, and The Plaza.  Empty lots are filled in and meat-put-back-on-the-bones so to speak (let’s assume the city/developer do so properly for the purpose of this discussion).  Immediately surrounding such areas, other opportunities happen now and again, but these are often deeper into the shag carpet, surrounded by inhabitants called NIMBY’s that do not understand how parasitic and costly their lifestyle is to their own community specifically, and to the world generally.   The value created by the successes of the easier to permit first wave of urban redevelopment made builders see dollar signs, so the immediate reaction was to make moves into the less explored lands of the NIMBY.  When developers and cities made these first forays into NIMBY world back in the late 1980’s early 1990’s, both took note of the hostile reactions encountered and began to strategize a way around them.  Most (but not all) took the path of least resistance, and diluted the urbanism, to cater to the tastes and expectations of NIMBYs, who demand urban services and distractions, but rural living and costs.  This was the beginning of the Frankenstein hybrid, mixed use infill, and greenfield projects, of which Charlotte has been binging on with great zeal ever since this type of development became a “thing” here in the mid 1990’s.  Faux Main Streets, ample parking, spotless and expensive bollards, banners, bushes and pavers, and a buffet of over the top, sometimes comical looking, street lighting…think Phillips Place.  The cherry on top, invented by the marketing teams of the development companies, and later, adopted by zoning departments, were the names given to such places.  How do you put a non-threatening face on something that is different from the single use suburbia surrounding it?  Wait for it…. you give it a cute name!   What could be more harmless and nostalgic than the words, Town and Village.  NIMBY world is nothing if not nostalgic.  Especially for things they've never experienced in the first place!  Thus was birthed the now ubiquitous Town Center and Urban Village concept, which has peppered the suburban landscapes of a majority of cities here in the States, as well as abroad.  China has so beotchized the terminology that village or town have lost all connection to urban place making.  A village or town center in China can describe a cluster of 50 story high-rises surrounding, or built atop million plus square foot shopping podiums, just as freely as it can describe a faux replica of London’s Belgrave Square.

So, with our urban design principles and history background in place, we return to RAM and their project.  Calling RAM’s project, an urban village, or even a town center, if they go with either moniker, is meaningless at the end of the day.  So too is trying to categorize or label such projects in other cities.  What they all are, if executed correctly, is urban, mixed-use, and walkable, with all the design principles and techniques that come along with such places.  A return to building settlements correctly.  Should they be allowed to expand beyond their initial acreage, they would begin again the process of “neighborhood replication", and depending on the size of the city and location visa-vi the accessibility network, the developments would take on low-rise, midrise, or high-rise massing.  

The missing link today, and the cause of confusion for the casual observer, stems from the continued disconnect between a development industry that has rediscovered the knowledge and expertise allowing them to build real places again, and a bureaucratic world that administers zoning without the proper tools and understanding of comprehensive, city scale planning.  A large and complex problem to tackle.  It would require a day-long seminar to merely outline the topics involved in the discussion!

Apologies for the length of this post.....I have the day off today  

[thenewkage95]

18 hours ago, MothBeast said:

Aaaand it’s gone. Google earth satellite imagery reverted for some reason 

 

I feel like Charlotte's Google Earth data always gets snubbed. Every other major city has their image data updated no less than once a year. There's no reason why Charlotte can't have updated image data as well.

[videtur quam contuor]

Re:  Clanton Park 

On 12/5/2023 at 11:20 AM, videtur quam contuor said:

If this is a Birkdale type development that stretches from 77 to Tryon on Clanton, then Clanton Park gonna EXPLODE! Buy now!

Zillow shows 9 properties.

and then yesterday on Axios:

https://charlotte.axios.com/345638/hot-homes-4-houses-for-sale-in-charlotte-starting-at-395k/

The stages of money flowing to a previously stable older neighborhood (not in order): Brick homes painted white with black window trim. Little libraries. Multiple home exterior cameras. Fences constructed with horizontal boards. (Occasionally) Xeriscape front yards.

Others?

[Reverie39]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:00 PM, thenewkage95 said:

I feel like Charlotte's Google Earth data always gets snubbed. Every other major city has their image data updated no less than once a year. There's no reason why Charlotte can't have updated image data as well.

Odd yeah, I'm not sure why the imagery reverted. But I will point out, as I said on another thread, Google Earth actually has been kind to Charlotte, not snubbing it. If you include this recent one, assuming it returns soon, there have been three updates to Charlotte's renderings in the past year and a half or so. I think that's actually a much higher rate than most other cities. There are parts of Atlanta for example that are much farther behind.

Not to mention the addition of Lynx lines to the transit map. 

[kermit]

Patagonia interior 12/12

 

[CLT Development]

The last parcel on West Tremont will be developed by Northwood Ravin at 510 West Tremont. 153 Units, 0 retail.

[KJHburg]

That is good looking apartment building and there is quite a bit of retail in that area along Toomey Ave not to mention the retail space along S Tryon and Tremont.  

[Guest]

Tremont Alley will really be the gathering place for the street

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, MothBeast said:

Tremont Alley will really be the gathering place for the street

I hope to gather there as well.

 

[KJHburg]

Miscellaneous 7 and 8 story apartment buildings in stark constrast to the older 3-4 story buildings which you won't see any more in Southend.  Today along Dunavant St and the shoe store site on South Blvd along Rail trail.

Rents are soften no going down but more concessions like free 1 months rent which is always spread across the lease.    Rent increases will be near zero in the next year or so in this market or very slow increases.  

 

[CLT Development]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Miscellaneous 7 and 8 story apartment buildings in stark constrast to the older 3-4 story buildings which you won't see any more in Southend.  Today along Dunavant St and the shoe store site on South Blvd along Rail trail.

Rents are soften no going down but more concessions like free 1 months rent which is always spread across the lease.    Rent increases will be near zero in the next year or so in this market or very slow increases.  

 

I like how midrises in South End (and even NoDa) have quietly gone from 6 floors to 7 and 8 floors. 

[davidclt]

On 12/12/2023 at 5:45 PM, kermit said:

Patagonia interior 12/12

 

Patagonia is stocked 

[kermit]

Very pleased to see that Patagonia put in an entrance from Camden. (It’s a crappy photo as I rushed to work,  there is an open door under the sign) 

 

Edited March 14 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Various mid-rise apartments are under construction or recently built in Southend and LoSo.  So many units yet to be delivered.  

First 2 photos show the evolution of property values as the oldest complex is lower density only 3 stories then the 2nd one to the right is 5 stories built by Pappas and then the most recent one in the background by Alliance is 7 stories due to escalating land prices.    All these apartments will deliver in the next 12-24 months softening rents for a time in this area.  

 

[RANYC]

Mutual of America Financial Group has chosen South End for its new North Carolina regional headquarters.

Mutual of America, a New York City-based firm that provides retirement and investment services, signed a 10-year lease for 3,000 square feet at the 2100 South Tryon office building. The company plans to move in this summer.

Look at the hideous power lines in this photo.  Honestly, South End isn't really looking so great to me lately.