Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[PuppiesandKittens]

Transit generally has been losing ridership  over the past decade, and freight rail traffic has declined as well.

The inability of whoever is in charge of getting a new uptown station built (it’s been in the works for decades), combined with soaring traffic on I-85 yet declining rail ridership shows it’s time for something new:

Time to get Brightline to follow through with its mentions of building a line between Charlotte and Atlanta.

[kermit]

2 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

The inability of whoever is in charge of getting a new uptown station built (it’s been in the works for decades), combined with soaring traffic on I-85 yet declining rail ridership shows it’s time for something new:

Time to get Brightline to follow through with its mentions of building a line between Charlotte and Atlanta.

Its not accurate to say Amtrak ridership between Charlotte and Raleigh has declined (pre covid), it has not. Amtrak ridership between NC and the NEC is what declined a bit.

Brightline will be a long while. They gotta see how their Orlando service works (should be finished in about a year), and if their LA(ish) to Las Vegas service (on new tracks) makes sense -- this project has not started construction. Until those two things happen they can't get anymore capital. Even best case scenario Brightline does not has the capital necessary to build greenfield HSR tracks from Charlotte to Atlanta, so if we rely on them for improved Atlanta service I suspect we will be disappointed with the speed and capacity.  Jon Ossof did request $10 billion for Atlanta-Charlotte HSR in the BBB bill, unfortunately we know what happened to that.

Edited May 1, 2022 by kermit

[PuppiesandKittens]

24 minutes ago, kermit said:

Its not accurate to say Amtrak ridership between Charlotte and Raleigh has declined (pre covid), it has not. Amtrak ridership from CLT to the corridor is what declined a bit.

Brightline will be a while. They gotta see how their Orlando service works (should be finished in about a year), and if their LA(ish) to Las Vegas service (on new tracks) makes sense -- this project has not started construction. Unfortunately Brightline does not has the capital necessary to build greenfield HSR tracks from Charlotte to Atlanta, so if we rely on them for improved Atlanta service I suspect we will be disappointed.  Jon Ossof did request $10 billion for Atlanta-Charlotte HSR in the BBB bill, unfortunately we know what happened to that.

You're right.  It looks like Piedmont ridership did go up pre-Covid, I guess due to increased frequencies: 67.pdf (railpassengers.org)

However, it's completely ridiculous that the Charlotte uptown station hasn't been built.  It's been on the drawing board for at least 15-20 years.  At this point, it's time to just call whoever builds Metro-North stations and have a few platforms and a basic headhouse built, just to get service uptown. And a Charlotte airport station could be built and that also could really increase ridership (particularly with a tie-in with pilot-short airlines), but that hasn't happened, either.  Leadership gets an F and needs to be replaced with leadership that could get things done.

The Brightline strategy of building real estate tied to train stations could certainly work on a Charlotte-Atlanta line; Charlotte, Greenville, SC and other cities have a lot of development going on around station sites.  But you're right about Brightline.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

The Brightline strategy of building real estate tied to train stations could certainly work on a Charlotte-Atlanta line; Charlotte, Greenville, SC and other cities have a lot of development going on around station sites.  But you're right about Brightline.

Brightline had an opportunity to submit to the RFP for the Gateway area development project, they did not.

Edited May 1, 2022 by kermit

[PuppiesandKittens]

41 minutes ago, kermit said:

Brightline had an opportunity to submit to the RFP for the Gateway area development project, they did not.

They probably couldn’t get the rest of their business model to work; one station alone isn’t enough.

[orulz]

Some thoughts about the Piedmont corridor, not necessarily specific to Charlotte but perhaps of interest:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OMbWdRimol1KSxl3gu5sIrKrPklof6-xlCo-D6yPnd0

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 5/2/2022 at 5:53 AM, orulz said:

Some thoughts about the Piedmont corridor, not necessarily specific to Charlotte but perhaps of interest:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OMbWdRimol1KSxl3gu5sIrKrPklof6-xlCo-D6yPnd0

$1.5 billion to upgrade the corridor Raleigh to Charlotte to truly high speed and doing it in 2 hours or less is a bargain.  There are 7 million people in this corridor now.  In 15 years add another million.  The cost to improve I-85 at this point will be $100's of billions.  High speed rail in NC isn't just a good idea, it's going to be required.  This along with how and where development occurs will mean a future of gridlock or an alternative that could put us at the forefront economically of any other state and most countries.  Build big or go home.

[Reverie39]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:07 PM, Phillydog said:

$1.5 billion to upgrade the corridor Raleigh to Charlotte to truly high speed and doing it in 2 hours or less is a bargain.  There are 7 million people in this corridor now.  In 15 years add another million.  The cost to improve I-85 at this point will be $100's of billions.  High speed rail in NC isn't just a good idea, it's going to be required.  This along with how and where development occurs will mean a future of gridlock or an alternative that could put us at the forefront economically of any other state and most countries.  Build big or go home.

Excellent point. It's time to start thinking of the NC Piedmont as one of the more highly populated regions in the country. 7 million people in a roughly 180 mile narrow arc is no joke and seems ripe for intercity transit possibilities. NC is just strange because we don't have one gigantic city like other states do, but we are still the 9th most populous state and most of our people live along that arc in a stretch of small, mid, and large cities. 

We have to think of ourselves as a high-population region suitable for transit in order to make anything happen.

[ertley]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Excellent point. It's time to start thinking of the NC Piedmont as one of the more highly populated regions in the country. 7 million people in a roughly 180 mile narrow arc is no joke and seems ripe for intercity transit possibilities. NC is just strange because we don't have one gigantic city like other states do, but we are still the 9th most populous state and most of our people live along that arc in a stretch of small, mid, and large cities. 

We have to think of ourselves as a high-population region suitable for transit in order to make anything happen.

Conceptually--I realize when we're talking rail here the only remotely realistic avenue of thought is intrastate--I would like to extend that arc to become a Carolina Crescent stretching down from Charlotte to Columbia and then on to Charleston. In an ideal world an interstate rail service would take you from Charleston up to Charlotte and then on to Greensboro...and (again, in an ideal world) even closing the loop with a Grand Strand/Low Country leg from Wilmington through Myrtle Beach to Charleston... 

I know getting South Carolina to ever participate in such a scheme is decades away from even being discussed, but having reliable, relatively high speed rail from Charlotte to Charleston would be a win-win-win. Even by car (with no major traffic issues) it's not much over three hours from CLT to CHS, so by rail it should be well under two hours, right?

[southslider]

Upgrading the S-Line between Raleigh and Richmond is the single most important investment to growing rail ridership in NC.  Charlotte would have the advantage of being the southern most major city with frequent trains from the Northeast.

[KJHburg]

Here is the plan for the Harrisburg commuter rail station  5000 sq ft station right off Hwy 49

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_BbMNOVA7ILZkpGQs1uP7JDxANwX6NKj/view

[Reverie39]

On 5/19/2022 at 9:56 PM, KJHburg said:

Here is the plan for the Harrisburg commuter rail station  5000 sq ft station right off Hwy 49

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_BbMNOVA7ILZkpGQs1uP7JDxANwX6NKj/view

I think I'm significantly out of the loop on something. Are there plans for a commuter rail line extending northeast from Charlotte?

Edit: Googled it and looks like it will be a part of intercity rail routes (Carolinian and Piedmont). I assume that would make it sort of expensive to use purely for commute into Charlotte?

Edited May 21, 2022 by Reverie39

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I think I'm significantly out of the loop on something. Are there plans for a commuter rail line extending northeast from Charlotte?

Edit: Googled it and looks like it will be a part of intercity rail routes (Carolinian and Piedmont). I assume that would make it sort of expensive to use purely for commute into Charlotte?

NCDOT is adding stations on the Piedmont route in Harrisburg, Lexington and Hillsborough. Part of the rationale of Harrisburg is it can serve as a suburban Charlotte station and provide parking to the riders that think they need it (since parking at Gateway station will always be constrained). 

I doubt all Piedmont trains will make all stops.

Nobody at NCDOT or regional planning agencies will mention commuter rail from Charlotte to Salisbury on the NCRR. I suspect they don’t want to make NS panic about more traffic on the tracks that they lease for freight. That commuter service is inevitable, but far enough away that its on no ones radar at the moment. If Triangle Commuter Rail (probably start running within 5 years) is successful expect to hear more talk about the Charlotte version. The infrastructure for it can be added to state-owned ROW fairly easily and it can be pitched as a significant traffic reliever for I-85.

Edited May 21, 2022 by kermit

[Reverie39]

4 minutes ago, kermit said:

NCDOT is adding stations on the Piedmont route in Harrisburg, Lexington and Hillsborough. Part of the rationale of Harrisburg is it can serve as a suburban Charlotte station and provide parking to the riders that think they need it (since parking at Gateway station will always be constrained.

I doubt all Piedmont trains will make all stops.

Nobody at NCDOT or regional planning agencies will mention commuter rail from Charlotte to Salisbury on the NCRR. I suspect they don’t want to make NS panic about more traffic on the tracks that they lease for freight. That commuter service is inevitable, but far enough away that its on no ones radar at the moment.

Great to hear that it is inevitable, even if it's far away. So do you see this future commuter line being more likely than the Red Line up to Lake Norman? That one has actually been talked about by planning agencies but seems like zero progress has been made past the planning stage.

[kermit]

26 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Great to hear that it is inevitable, even if it's far away. So do you see this future commuter line being more likely than the Red Line up to Lake Norman? That one has actually been talked about by planning agencies but seems like zero progress has been made past the planning stage.

Commuter rail to Salisbury will be several orders of magnitude easier to make happen than the Red line simply because the state owns the tracks and 200 ft of row around the tracks. Unfortunately there is less political will for it (Salisbury) to happen because running through multiple counties makes it tougher and less rewarding for pols. 

For a Salisbury commuter route to be efficient and effective it will need to through run past Gateway station so a more difficult route to Gastonia or Rock Hill would need to be paired with it to make it into good transit. Stub-ending at Gateway would be really awkward. And, no, a Davidson route probably would not work as the other end of this service due to the direction change.

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Commuter rail to Salisbury will be several orders of magnitude easier to make happen than the Red line simply because the state owns the tracks and 200 ft of row around the tracks. Unfortunately there is less political will for it (Salisbury) to happen because running through multiple counties makes it tougher and less rewarding for pols. 

For a Salisbury commuter route to be efficient and effective it will need to through run past Gateway station so a more difficult route to Gastonia or Rock Hill would need to be paired with it to make it into good transit. Stub-ending at Gateway would be really awkward. And, no, a Davidson route probably would not work as the other end of this service due to the direction change.

Can you unpack the bold comment a bit? I don't see why it would be awkward to have a commuter line that just goes to core and back.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Desert Power said:

Can you unpack the bold comment a bit? I don't see why it would be awkward to have a commuter line that just goes to core and back.

I didn’t intend to imply commuter rail can’t happen if it turns at Gateway, just that it will be sub-optimal.

Its partly an efficiency issue related to what needs to be done when the train is turned (driver has to get to other end, brakes and controls need to be tested, etc). This means that a turned train clogs the platform for a minimum of 10 minutes, not really enough time for NS to run a freight through, but enough time to prevent another passenger train from using the platform.  If the train runs through then it will occupy a platform for about 1 minute and not foul freight at all on a two track railroad.

The other issue is related to the nature of commuter rail. The pandemic hit CR worse than any other mode (most commuter riders are in the WFH demographic). Given this there is a growing awareness that commuter systems need to switch over to a regional rail, or S-bhan model, which serves steady ridership throughout the day between suburbs in addition to the urban core. Philadelphia is making that transition with SEPTA now. Regional rail would make it reasonable to take transit from Rock Hill to University city, or Kannapolis to Sugar Creek, something that would be impossible at LRT speeds.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by kermit

[Third Strike]

NCDOT to update Wilmington passenger-rail study:

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/North-Carolina-DOT-to-update-passenger-rail-study--66738

[CLT2014]

6 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

NCDOT to update Wilmington passenger-rail study:

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/North-Carolina-DOT-to-update-passenger-rail-study--66738

Wish we could get a Charlotte -> Wilmington direct route.   Charlotte -> Raleigh -> Wilmington will be too slow. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

18 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Wish we could get a Charlotte -> Wilmington direct route.   Charlotte -> Raleigh -> Wilmington will be too slow. 

Charlotte -> Wilmington Beach direct route

FTFY 

[Reverie39]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:47 PM, CLT2014 said:

Wish we could get a Charlotte -> Wilmington direct route.   Charlotte -> Raleigh -> Wilmington will be too slow. 

Would love to have an extensive train network like this in NC. But to make that happen we need to get ridership up. I don't think the transportation culture within NC is conducive to train ridership just yet - most people want to get somewhere in the Piedmont, they just drive without thinking twice. I'm not even sure if most people are aware of our frequent Charlotte-Raleigh trains that are pretty convenient. Perhaps NCDOT should be doing more in the form of advertising and awareness? Show off our gleaming new stations, near-future track upgrades, surprisingly short travel times, etc.

[JRCLT]

Would love to have an extensive train network like this in NC. But to make that happen we need to get ridership up. I don't think the transportation culture within NC is conducive to train ridership just yet - most people want to get somewhere in the Piedmont, they just drive without thinking twice. I'm not even sure if most people are aware of our frequent Charlotte-Raleigh trains that are pretty convenient. Perhaps NCDOT should be doing more in the form of advertising and awareness? Show off our gleaming new stations, near-future track upgrades, surprisingly short travel times, etc.

That is unbelievably true. Didn’t know NC had train service until I actually decided to confirm the random signs on the highways saying NCbyTrain and thinking it was some weird joke or some old signs old- honestly couldn’t even tell you what I was thinking when I saw those signs. I thought of every other thing that it could mean but passenger train because honestly I thought there was no way. Definitely needs to be out there more and improvements that favor it over car travel.

[jthomas]

14 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Would love to have an extensive train network like this in NC. But to make that happen we need to get ridership up. I don't think the transportation culture within NC is conducive to train ridership just yet - most people want to get somewhere in the Piedmont, they just drive without thinking twice. I'm not even sure if most people are aware of our frequent Charlotte-Raleigh trains that are pretty convenient. Perhaps NCDOT should be doing more in the form of advertising and awareness? Show off our gleaming new stations, near-future track upgrades, surprisingly short travel times, etc.

It's going to take a lot more service for the train to make the transition from niche option to competitive transportation alternative. IMO, the minimum threshold would be all-day hourly service on the Piedmont - something like a train each way, every hour, from 5:00AM-11:00PM. Ridership would make a huge jump if trains were available for travel at all times of day, with an easily memorizable schedule. I think NC could support this level of service today if it was available. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like NCDOT is thinking anywhere near this big. 

[Reverie39]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

It's going to take a lot more service for the train to make the transition from niche option to competitive transportation alternative. IMO, the minimum threshold would be all-day hourly service on the Piedmont - something like a train each way, every hour, from 5:00AM-11:00PM. Ridership would make a huge jump if trains were available for travel at all times of day, with an easily memorizable schedule. I think NC could support this level of service today if it was available. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like NCDOT is thinking anywhere near this big. 

I agree we could probably support that much service. NC is a unique state - very high population, but not centered around one gigantic city like so many other large states are (Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.). We have several small and mid size cities and I'd count Charlotte as large these days. None of them are very far apart save for perhaps Wilmington and maybe Asheville. We are uniquely positioned to support intercity rail between these many cities, even moreso than something like commuter rail given we don't have any metro areas with more than 3 million people.

[Matthew.Brendan]

>inter city rail travel

my grand children will really love it!