Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[monsoon]

^It would seem to me the goal would be to moderate the usage of the free parking lots. I would think that someone driving to a P&R lot several times to find it full would give up and not ever try again. A bigger disincentive than say $1 to go in. Sure a few people might not choose to pay to park, but if the lots remain full, and CATS is now drawing revenue from the parking all the better. I don't see the problem.

[Justadude]

^ Wouldn't it be better in the long-run to expand the parking capacity, collect more than $1 for each rider who purchases a ticket instead of leaving, provide a more convenient experience to existing riders, and put more butts in the seats (therefore influencing the Feds, etc.)?

If nothing else they could simply put in a side-lot until the time is right for a new deck. Then they could just dig up the side-lot and use it for the deck location. Surely it wouldn't cost all that much.

[Andyc545]

^It would seem to me the goal would be to moderate the usage of the free parking lots. I would think that someone driving to a P&R lot several times to find it full would give up and not ever try again. A bigger disincentive than say $1 to go in. Sure a few people might not choose to pay to park, but if the lots remain full, and CATS is now drawing revenue from the parking all the better. I don't see the problem.

See now if I were going to make a prediction- I would say that a more likely case is that many riders would feel a sense of letdown by having to drive in a parking deck, pay a fee then 5 minutes later pay another fee for a ticket. I could see people complaining as soon as they enter the deck for the first time, and feel like they may not be choosing the cheapest or most efficient way to get from point A to point B anymore. If CAT's were looking for more funding, aside from a tax increase or some other alternatives, it would make more sense just to raise the ticket price, that way it can account for extra funds, yet the end user will not feel like they would be getting ripped off by so many fees. A ticket at, let's say $1.60 is still an incredible bargain for most end users, especially suburbanites whose mind set may not be in using the train for gas saving and environmental users, but who are just trying to avoid pay for parking. $1.60, .30 more would almost account for a $1.00 parking fee if the average car that pulls in the deck has 3 people in the vehicle. I'd be curious to see a fact on an average of how many people are in each vehicle that pulls in a P&R lot, that way a more efficient ticket increase could be obtained. Most people aren't going to do the math to exactly time the more efficient way of getting into uptown, if you have a multiple fee system, most will just say "screw it" and pay 5/10 bucks to park in uptown and be there already.

Not to mention, that CAT's charging their P&R lots will stir up commotion where there are other free lots that people can park in near stations (Ex. parallel parking at E&W, strip mall parking near Tyvola). Will anger business owners and make use of light rail more inconvenient.

[Justadude]

The multiple-fees thing is a good point. There's a psychological difference between one payment of $2 and two payments of $1. Each time a person has to pull out their money, it feels a little more exasperating... even if the amount of money isn't all that significant (and let's bear in mind that for some transit riders, $20 a month in parking is significant). It's different at the Whitewater Center, where this might be a once- or twice-a-year thing. But pulling out your cash 20 times a month has the psychological "nickle and dime" effect that will drive some people away.

[atlrvr]

Maybe its time we look at makeing the 1/2 Cent Sales tax bumped up to 3/4 or a full cent. Construciton costs are not getting cheaper and a system that was suposed to be designed to last 25 years is already being overloaded in its first year of operation. With the increased tax we could expand the stations to 300 ft so they could accomidate 3 car trains, build a larger 485 deck, bump up the Streetcar and still build the North and NE Lines. Maybe we could even buy some new TVMs.

I suggested this very thing shortly after the tax was reaffirmed in November. I think with a full $0.01 you could even go ahead with the SE line as LRT.....I think I calculated the city could finance about $1.1B in new construction almost immediately by going to a full cent. I think if you did raise it another $0.005, then you would have to do away with the prepared food tax, because $0.09 at a restaurant is getting a bit ridiculous.

Edit. I'm against parking fees for the most part, but I wouldn't be opposed to a "parking deck congestion fee", which would be maybe $1 charge when the deck reaches 75% capacity and a $2 charge when it reachest 90% capacity. Perhaps this would encourage riders to arrive earlier and help distribute traffic better.

[MZT]

I was at the Meck County board meeting a few nights ago, and I think the tightening picture for the budget is going to shut down any talk of buying more train sets. They're going to spend the next couple of months just trying to figure out how to cover a 70 million dollar funding gap.

They may succeed in covering it, but if the economy weakens there will probably be a larger gap next year, and talk of a property tax increase will be in the air. Baaaad environment politically to talk about buying trains or raising the sales tax to a penny.

Edited April 3, 2008 by MZT

[nyxmike]

The multiple-fees thing is a good point. There's a psychological difference between one payment of $2 and two payments of $1. Each time a person has to pull out their money, it feels a little more exasperating... even if the amount of money isn't all that significant (and let's bear in mind that for some transit riders, $20 a month in parking is significant). It's different at the Whitewater Center, where this might be a once- or twice-a-year thing. But pulling out your cash 20 times a month has the psychological "nickle and dime" effect that will drive some people away.

I agree. Obviously there is plenty of support for transit considering the vote in November. Other cities have increased their transit tax in order to expand more quickly, and I don't see why it wouldn't work here. A cent is still a small price to pay.

[Niner National]

Was driving through downtown last night at about 12:30 and they had the trolley out on the tracks testing it. Blocked off 7th street for a solid 10 minutes (that's how long I sat there before turning around at least).

[monsoon]

I agree. Obviously there is plenty of support for transit considering the vote in November. Other cities have increased their transit tax in order to expand more quickly, and I don't see why it wouldn't work here. A cent is still a small price to pay.

No argument about the rate. However the ability to do this depends upon getting approval from the NC Legislature. At least one of the local delegation to the legislature, Thom Tillis, has said that he would want a tax increase such as this spent on roads instead. (or at least implied it) This is why I said it would be a difficult thing to pull off from a political standpoint.

[sax184]

Another approach CATS could take is to charge for parking at the most congested lots only during the AM peak, from 6:30 - 9:00 A.M., and have it be free the rest of the day. This will filter some of the parkers to stations with more free parking that is currently unused, and free up spaces at the congested lots.

Yes, it will drive some people away from using transit, but what happens now when someone arrives at 485 and the deck is full? Illegal parking, surely, maybe you get towed from a nearby lot? Or do you decide not to risk that and just drive Uptown?

Many of the people who drive to the LRT and work in Uptown Charlotte would surely pay $1/day to save time hunting for a parking space during peak periods, and those who are more price sensitive will sort themselves a station or two closer. No big deal.

[The Fringe]

Another approach CATS could take is to charge for parking at the most congested lots only during the AM peak, from 6:30 - 9:00 A.M., and have it be free the rest of the day. This will filter some of the parkers to stations with more free parking that is currently unused, and free up spaces at the congested lots.

I am not sure I buy into this strategy. Why would you be asking only the people that use the system at a particular point to pay for something that is for the whole county? Why not just increase the LRT ticket price for everyone?

To me, charging extra at the garage is like asking the people that use the arena station to pay an extra dollar because that platform is nicer.

[tozmervo]

I am not sure I buy into this strategy. Why would you be asking only the people that use the system at a particular point to pay for something that is for the whole county? Why not just increase the LRT ticket price for everyone?

To me, charging extra at the garage is like asking the people that use the arena station to pay an extra dollar because that platform is nicer.

I walk to my station. Many people take the bus. You do not have to drive to the train at any station.

[wheatie]

The goal of a growing city should not be to have people parking in commuter lots and then taking the train. The ultimate goal is to get people to take the bus to a train station and then transfer. Once there is sufficient bus service to shuttle people from their neighborhoods to the train, they should start charging for parking because there is an alternative. With respect to the northern Virginia park and rides this is possible. My cousin in Virginia takes the bus every day to the park and ride station and then hops on the train. I do the same here in Vancouver. Once people get used to taking transit, hopefully they will use the bus with less hesitation. Unfortunately, in CLT there is a big stigma attached to using bus service.

[MZT]

If they really HAVE to do this, I think a monthly or yearly parking sticker would annoy people less.

I normally park at Arrowwood or Archdale right now anyway. (I suppose those lots might become more full though, if paying to park at 485 or Sharon Lakes is implemented.)

[Justadude]

The goal of a growing city should not be to have people parking in commuter lots and then taking the train. The ultimate goal is to get people to take the bus to a train station and then transfer. Once there is sufficient bus service to shuttle people from their neighborhoods to the train, they should start charging for parking because there is an alternative. With respect to the northern Virginia park and rides this is possible. My cousin in Virginia takes the bus every day to the park and ride station and then hops on the train. I do the same here in Vancouver. Once people get used to taking transit, hopefully they will use the bus with less hesitation. Unfortunately, in CLT there is a big stigma attached to using bus service.

The geographic layout of suburban Charlotte makes this nearly impossible to implement. Neighborhoods are not laid out in a way that makes bus transit convenient -- the roads are not interconnected enough to make for linear routes, buildings are spaced so far apart that a stop only serves a limited number of people, and there is no way to separate buses from regular auto traffic. Besides, most suburban bus riders already use park-and-ride service... so they'd be driving to a bus lot in order to avoid the train lot. Not very efficient.

[wheatie]

The geographic layout of suburban Charlotte makes this nearly impossible to implement. Neighborhoods are not laid out in a way that makes bus transit convenient -- the roads are not interconnected enough to make for linear routes, buildings are spaced so far apart that a stop only serves a limited number of people, and there is no way to separate buses from regular auto traffic. Besides, most suburban bus riders already use park-and-ride service... so they'd be driving to a bus lot in order to avoid the train lot. Not very efficient.

While CLT's layout is definitely challenging, it is not impossible to improve things. A linear route is not necessary, or possible. A combination of local and express buses improves the access and efficiency in areas which are spread out. How many cities separate buses from regular auto traffic? It is done only on a very limited basis at specific times of day here in Vancouver. The park and ride lots for buses in CLT are not for the local bus connections I am advocating. I am not simply talking about rerouting existing routes, but creating new routes which are specific to the task of connecting people to rapid transit.

[Justadude]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the bus system should be left to stagnate. It's obviously a major piece of the transit puzzle, and the improvements of the past few years haven't gotten us to a point where we can be satisfied with the overall impact. Definitely lots of room for improvement -- but I don't see it as a major priority to pour millions of dollars into a dense bus network for the outer suburbs where there are enormous physical and social barriers to overcome. I'd rather see a well-established bus network in the central neighborhoods first, where they are more likely to be used and hopefully will generate some ridership from city-dwelling yuppies, and then slowly extend outward after it is established (I felt the same way about the train system but the ship has sailed on that idea).

How many cities separate buses from regular auto traffic? It is done only on a very limited basis at specific times of day here in Vancouver.

I don't know about Vancouver, but in Charlotte it's usually pointless to take the bus if you have access to a car -- largely because there is no savings in time by taking mass transit. Probably the biggest selling point for the Blue Line is that it takes riders past traffic jams on I-77 and South Blvd. and deposits them within walking distance of Uptown locations without a parking hassle. If the train had to sit in mixed traffic and took 45 minutes to make a single trip, nobody would ride it... and the same principle applies to suburban bus routes. People needing to go up roads like Providence or Colony are not going to see much point in sacrificing their mobility when they have to sit in the same traffic for the same amount of time.

I am not simply talking about rerouting existing routes, but creating new routes which are specific to the task of connecting people to rapid transit.

Still not saying this is a bad idea, because it's going to be a component of the "master plan" sooner or later; but if the goal is to have a dense network of bus stops all over the suburban neighborhoods, to the point that nearly every resident would be within reasonable walking distance of a bus stop, we would have to pony up for dozens if not hundreds of new routes to make it happen. Buses would have to actually go inside subdivisions and meander around side-streets, because nobody is going to walk 2 miles in the rain to get to a bus stop on a narrow sidewalk next to Highway 51 or Harris Blvd. The efficiency of the system would be just about nil, never mind the enormous extra financial and administrative burden that it would take. Charlotte's suburbs are just not friendly to local buses... an ugly reality that ought to drive change in our zoning and development practices.

[sax184]

I walk to my station. Many people take the bus. You do not have to drive to the train at any station.

Well said. The LRT line is not having a problem boarding passengers. It is having a demand/supply crunch on parking. Why should lower-impact riders (bike, bus, walk to rail) subsudize auto users? Price the parking accordingly, and some people will even (gasp!) switch to taking the bus or bike to the station.

[ChiefJoJo]

^ Besides, you lose many of the environmental benefits of transit when thousands of people drive to park & ride lots... cold start emissions, among them, and especially in the summer time, the ozone can be quite severe in the region. I do understand Parker not wanting to charge for parking so soon after the Lynx has opened. It's as much of a PR, goodwill issue as anything at this point. I suspect that down the line, CATS may have to re-think it.

[wheatie]

I don't know about Vancouver, but in Charlotte it's usually pointless to take the bus if you have access to a car -- largely because there is no savings in time by taking mass transit. Probably the biggest selling point for the Blue Line is that it takes riders past traffic jams on I-77 and South Blvd. and deposits them within walking distance of Uptown locations without a parking hassle. If the train had to sit in mixed traffic and took 45 minutes to make a single trip, nobody would ride it... and the same principle applies to suburban bus routes. People needing to go up roads like Providence or Colony are not going to see much point in sacrificing their mobility when they have to sit in the same traffic for the same amount of time.

When is taking the bus ever faster than a car? The point of taking the bus has never and will never be about fast transit. No matter the city, it is usually faster to drive than take a bus. By the way, I lived in those CLT suburbs for 4 years, and I am aware of the issues. I spend 2 hours on transit a day when I could spend less that 1.5 hours if I drove. Why do I take transit? Cost. If parking were free everywhere like CLT, I would probably drive.

Obviously connecting the suburban areas is a huge problem, and there is probably no good way of improving things in the near term. I guess that I think the time to come up with new ideas for the future is now.

[rooster8]

I finally had a chance to ride the LRT this past weekend. My wife and I parked at the Tyvola Station and rode into Uptown for the Bobcats-Celtics game or should I say Celtics-Bobcats game.

I initially parked on the South Blvd. side in the huge parking lot. We then noticed the smaller lot closer to the station and moved. A gentleman from Indiana asked me general questions about the train (arrival times, bathroom availability, etc.). Thankfully I'm a UP reader so I knew answers to most of what he was asking. Of course I had the experience of trying to use the TVM when the train arrived. I tried to use a debit card (I missed the conversation that debit doesn't work yet) to no avail. I ended up using a $20 and ended up with a pocket full of James Monroe's. The train was pretty full when we finally did board. We were able to locate a seat without much difficulty. A transit cop did check our tickets near the end of the line. I think he missed one fare jumper who boarded at the East/West Blvd station and left at Stonewall. He could have had a monthly pass or something, but it appeared he was eying the cop as he made his way down the train. We rode down to the 7th Street stop and ate at Brixx.

After the game, we boarded at the CTC/Arena station with a large horde. There were transit cops galore. The train was pretty packed with most of the people apparently disembarking closer to the I-485 station. There were some obnoxious kids that were playing a sort of Chinese fire drill when the train doors opened, but apart from language, they were harmless.

Generally it was a great experience. My wife had a great impression. She asked if more lines were planned and wondered why other cities in the state hadn't followed suit. Anyway, sorry for the long rant. We had a good experience riding it and look forward to more lines.

[Justadude]

When is taking the bus ever faster than a car?

This is the idea behind bus/HOV lanes and BRT, which are the types of bus transit that actually work in Charlotte-like suburbs.

Again, we have to deal with the reality that bus transit has a major negative connotation in this region... and only part of that has to do with cultural stereotypes. In NYC, you can hop on a bus and get where you're going just as fast as if you drove, and have almost the same level of mobility -- actually, you probably have more mobility on NYC mass transit than if you tried to go to several destinations by car and had to find parking each time. In Charlotte, you would have to a) walk a long distance in the weather to get to a stop, b) wait an absolute minimum of 15 minutes, usually closer to 30 minutes, for the bus to crawl out of traffic and arrive at your stop, c) sit in gridlocked traffic just the same as if you had taken the car but without the luxury and privacy, and d) be almost entirely isolated at your destination because your bus line is the only form of transit within walking distance.

The average citizen would never go through the above if they had the financial means to simply drive themselves to their destination. There is no benefit to riding the bus other than cost -- everything else is sacrifice. That's not a strong sell and therefore the middle and upper class avoid buses at all costs (literally). So something has to be improved -- namely, the convenience and speed of bus transit. But in order to improve those things we'd be spending MAJOR money that could go to other projects. All things considered, I don't think that such a dramatic upgrade to bus service is worth the costs.

[RiverwoodCLT]

I see the Park And Ride lot in Matthew has may cars duing the day and I see many ridding the bus on Providence, Monroe, South Park Area in the rush hours of the day.

[wheatie]

This is the idea behind bus/HOV lanes and BRT, which are the types of bus transit that actually work in Charlotte-like suburbs.

Again, we have to deal with the reality that bus transit has a major negative connotation in this region... and only part of that has to do with cultural stereotypes. In NYC, you can hop on a bus and get where you're going just as fast as if you drove, and have almost the same level of mobility -- actually, you probably have more mobility on NYC mass transit than if you tried to go to several destinations by car and had to find parking each time. In Charlotte, you would have to a) walk a long distance in the weather to get to a stop, b) wait an absolute minimum of 15 minutes, usually closer to 30 minutes, for the bus to crawl out of traffic and arrive at your stop, c) sit in gridlocked traffic just the same as if you had taken the car but without the luxury and privacy, and d) be almost entirely isolated at your destination because your bus line is the only form of transit within walking distance.

The average citizen would never go through the above if they had the financial means to simply drive themselves to their destination. There is no benefit to riding the bus other than cost -- everything else is sacrifice. That's not a strong sell and therefore the middle and upper class avoid buses at all costs (literally). So something has to be improved -- namely, the convenience and speed of bus transit. But in order to improve those things we'd be spending MAJOR money that could go to other projects. All things considered, I don't think that such a dramatic upgrade to bus service is worth the costs.

The average citizen all over the world goes through that mess everyday. Bus transit has a negative connotation almost everywhere. Here in Vancouver it is called the 'loser cruiser'; however, many people still ride it because the regional policy encourages it through the use of financial disincentives to driving. Back to the original point. Free parking at the park and ride should be seen as a temporary policy, until proper transit infrastructure provides alternatives. I walk over a 1.5 miles as part of my commute. There will always be an inconvenience associate with transit due to its focus on the whole and not the individual. BTW, CLT-like suburban development is not unique to CLT or the USA for that matter. These same problems are a plague in many cities.

[Andyc545]

The Charlotte Trolley will begin taking trips again Sunday April 20 at 1:00pm. There will be a "Charlotte Trolley is Back on Track" celebration to kick it off and will take place at Atherton Mill.