Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[uptownliving]

I spoke to a CATS official about the TVM's a few weeks ago and they said that the machines have stabilized from where they were back in November. Everytime something goes wrong with a machine it sends an alert to the main computer at the Ops Center. In the begining they were getting 2000 alerts per day and now they average about 50 alerts per day for the entire TVM system. They mentioned they are still not happy with the performance of the machine and have not formally accepted them which means that CATS has not handed over very much money to the vendor. As for a timeline of when they would giveup and go with another vendor the answer I got was not comforting. They said that most transit systems in the USA are not happy with their TVMs. They used the example of Cleveland where they said it took 7 years before the City was satisfied with their TVMs. Also in Houston they are still in court litigating over their original TVM's. It seems to me they are saying we could be in for a long fight with ACS to get these machines working the way they should.

[monsoon]

.....

Also, from our trip to Europe, I found a vastly better system for ticketing. It is still 'proof of payment' where you only get checked periodically by conductors, ......

Was this just on the intercity trains? Seems to me the local transit systems, such at the London Tube system use the standard purchase a ticket go through the gate, pay by distance traveled.

[monsoon]

..... They said that most transit systems in the USA are not happy with their TVMs. They used the example of Cleveland where they said it took 7 years before the City was satisfied with their TVMs. ....

Ahh but Tober wasn't behind the debacles in Cleveland as well?

I hate it when a government official tries to justify bad decisions by pointing out other municipalities who have made the same bad mistakes instead of accepting responsibility they screwed up. There are also huge numbers of transit systems that have reliable efficient ticketing systems and have been operating them for decades.

[Mobuchu]

Was this just on the intercity trains? Seems to me the local transit systems, such at the London Tube system use the standard purchase a ticket go through the gate, pay by distance traveled.

Berlin (U-bahn, S-bahn, and all other forms of transit), Wroclaw, Krakow, Prague, Dresden, and Leipzig all use proof of payment. Leipzig is building a subway line, but not sure if it uses gates or proof of payment. Also, I'll add that the ticket checkers for the streetcar in Leipzig were almost undercover with regular street clothes. They just pulled out a badge. 3 people got tickets on that train...

We used transit extensively in Berlin but never had our tickets checked. Granted, its a huge system so I'm sure they are out there, we just didn't see them. These systems probably calculate how many ticket checkers need to be in circulation to offset or even create a profit over the # of people that ride for free.

[TD]

Berlin (U-bahn, S-bahn, and all other forms of transit), Wroclaw, Krakow, Prague, Dresden, and Leipzig all use proof of payment. Leipzig is building a subway line, but not sure if it uses gates or proof of payment. Also, I'll add that the ticket checkers for the streetcar in Leipzig were almost undercover with regular street clothes. They just pulled out a badge. 3 people got tickets on that train...

We used transit extensively in Berlin but never had our tickets checked. Granted, its a huge system so I'm sure they are out there, we just didn't see them. These systems probably calculate how many ticket checkers need to be in circulation to offset or even create a profit over the # of people that ride for free.

People that are unhappy I urge you to call and write emails or letters to CATS letting them know, so that they will take action!

[Raintree21]

The numbers are in for Lynx ridership during the CIAA and ACC tournaments.

CIAA Tournament

Monday, February 29 to to Saturday, March 1

80,000 passengers

ACC Tournament

Thursday, March 13 to Sunday, March 16

90,000 passengers

[dubone]

Definitely a lot of systems in Europe use gated systems, but all of the systems, including Berlins multiple systems (S-bahn, U-bahn, and trams) used a timestamped ticket for proof of payment. It was very efficient and allowed for a lot more flexibility on the system, you could change from U-bahn to S-bahn to tram to bus if you wanted to to get to your destination. That type of system, with multiple modes of transit, is closest to CATS's plan (commuter rail, light rail, streetcar/tram, BRT and buses will make up the final CATS system), so a zone and timestamp based system seems to be the most useful for the users.

There are many ways to skin this cat, and frankly if the machines worked quickly and intuitively, the current system would be fine. However, they don't.

By the way, even if people grow to get used to them and even if they don't break down, it doesn't mean they are not still bad, although certainly better than they had been.

[mallguy]

Most European cities I've lived in (Brussels, Vienna and Liege, Belgium) use proof of payment (or at least did when I lived there, 15-20 years ago). I read an article recently showing how proof of payment systems have more crime vs. ones with gates, so I'd rather have gates.

[kermit]

Most European cities I've lived in (Brussels, Vienna and Liege, Belgium) use proof of payment (or at least did when I lived there, 15-20 years ago). I read an article recently showing how proof of payment systems have more crime vs. ones with gates, so I'd rather have gates.

I just don't get this debate. Is it even possible to have an access controlled system when a large portion of the stations are at grade? You can't fence off the tracks so it seems impossible to me to stop people from entering the stations via the tracks rather than turnstyles.

I think we are stuck with what we got.

[tozmervo]

Add Zurich to the list of transit systems that are ungated. Both Zurich and Florence (just buses there) used time stamped tickets.

I, for one, am perfectly happy that they used the open system. New Bern and northwards benefits greatly from having the stations as open as they are. To cut them off with impassable fencing and bulky, maintenance-nightmare gates would have been an unfortunate urban design and connectivity move. I'd question why someone would want a gated system. In terms of safety, I'd have to be shown numbers that gates keep people safer. I rather doubt gates are going to keep criminals out. I mean, they're criminals. That's kind of the point.

[monsoon]

I just don't get this debate. Is it even possible to have an access controlled system when a large portion of the stations are at grade? You can't fence off the tracks so it seems impossible to me to stop people from entering the stations via the tracks rather than turnstyles.

I am not sure I follow your argument. There are lots of systems where it is possible to climb onto the tracks to enter the station. However aside from the fact that you are literally putting your life in danger, you would also have to leave in the same manner since most modern controlled access systems require you to have a ticket to leave. Of course you will also get picked up by cameras that are checking for people on the tracks. It's very unlikely that people would try to cheat the system like this.

However, given the way the Charlotte system is built now it would be extremely costly to go back and retrofit it for controlled access so it's not going to happen anytime soon.

[dubone]

I don't really agree with the argument that it should have been controlled access, but I'm willing to accept that it would have been a viable option if selected up front.

However, given that it is a proof of payment system that was built, I believe they could have done it much much better, and that they still have the chance to select a better system by returning those junk yard systems. I very much preferred the proof of payment systems I was exposed to in Europe in multiple cities (buy tickets anytime giving you the right to unlimited transit in the city for 90 minutes and then timestamp it when you get on the train.).

[uptownliving]

In the end, it put our ticketing system to shame for effectiveness, speed, simplicity, ease of use, practicality, and everything else. The sad thing is, if we end up sticking with the current systems, we are bound to repeat it for every new line in the system that opens. That is a scary thought, and really reduces the quality of the system overall.

Interesting to note that the TVM's in Charlotte and Berlin are from the same supplier, ACS. Looks like you got to experience the best that ACS has to offer. They even feature the Berlin system on their webpage.

It is frustrating to have our machines be so slow when ACS has demonstrated they can make a good TVM. I guess they don't care that much about Charlotte. When put in persepective that we have some 36 TVMs whereas Berlin has over 700...I guess it makes sense we are not that big a deal to them money wise.

Edited March 18, 2008 by uptownliving

[Mobuchu]

^Then I just dont understand the ergonomics of ours?? Those in Berlin had the paper and coin slots at standing height. The money and ticket dispenser was low, but nowhere near as tough to access as ours. I understand the need to be handicap accessible, but come on. If 1 out of every 500 that uses the system is in a wheel chair, does that warrant forcing 499 to struggle with the machine? Maybe thats just a little insensative of me, I dont know, but the design is almost silly.

What a difference touch screens make too. So much easier that I'm surprised they even make TVM's, ATM's, etc that aren't.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Mobuchu

[monsoon]

Interesting to note that the TVM's in Charlotte and Berlin are from the same supplier, ACS. Looks like you got to experience the best that ACS has to offer. They even feature the Berlin system on their webpage......

ACS is not a supplier, but rather a middle man, a consulting company. This is a huge company with an American subsidiary that deals in much more than light rail ticketing machines. They contract with a number of vendors to supply machines to transit agencies based on requirements from said transit company. The means that while ACS may be the firm used in Germany, there may be absolutely no relations to their machines and what we have here in Charlotte. ACS also supplies service contracts for machines which CATS seems to have purchases and which is being handled out of Atlanta.

The machines in Charlotte are an embarrassment and an example of sinking to the lowest common denominator of design by committee. The interface is very clumsy, the machines look cheaply built, and they are extremely slow for what they do. And did I mention they seem to require a great deal of labor to maintain. We live in a city were very complex machines are designed for consumers to handle money transactions and it irks me why they just didn't hire a local firm help them develop something that would work here. It's not like they didn't have 4 years to do it.

[uptownliving]

Just for the record ACS does in fact design and manufacture Ticket Vending Machines. They bought the Ascom Transport Division a few years ago which is a Swiss based company. In fact if you go back in the City Council meeting minutes you will see that it was Ascom that was awarded the TVM Contract. Also Ascom (now ACS) featured Charlotte as one of the systems to get its new MOS 020 Coin Handlers on this page. I don't know why our machines dont work like they should...but either we got lemon machines from ACS or the Contracters installing our machines dont know what they are doing.

[monsoon]

The Charlotte machines were designed in France, not Switzerland. Ascom is indeed one of their suppliers but not one that supplied Charlotte.

[uptownliving]

The Charlotte machines were designed in France, not Switzerland. Ascom is indeed one of their suppliers but not one that supplied Charlotte.

So if the machines were not made by ACS as you suggest...then who made them?

[monsoon]

So if the machines were not made by ACS as you suggest...then who made them?

You tell me. You have already noted they are inferior to the ones in Germany. I would think the vendor of the machines would be proud enough to put their names on the devices, but apparently not in this case.

[uptownliving]

Well from the information I have...the Contractors installing the TVMs are out of the ACS office in Atlanta (specifically Marrietta, GA)...which is the closest ACS office to Charlotte. My information also shows that the machines were designed and manufactured at the ACS Fare Collection Competence Center in Guilherand-Granges, France.

[monsoon]

^As I posted here some time ago, the ACS guy that I spoke to back when Lynx opened, who was servicing a machine, said they handled machines from 5 different manufacturers. I am not sure of the point of this. The machines in Charlotte are pretty lame.

[dubone]

The machines in Charlotte are an embarrassment and an example of sinking to the lowest common denominator of design by committee. The interface is very clumsy, the machines look cheaply built, and they are extremely slow for what they do. And did I mention they seem to require a great deal of labor to maintain. We live in a city were very complex machines are designed for consumers to handle money transactions and it irks me why they just didn't hire a local firm help them develop something that would work here. It's not like they didn't have 4 years to do it.

That is a very good point, and also, why have they not worked out a way to buy your train tickets at the ATM. You can buy stamps there, and the banks would likely have done whatever they could to support transit in that way.

It really doesn't matter what all the details of the contracts, suppliers, and source countries were. These machines are just terrible and need to be replaced, period. Why not just reject these and go with the next lower bid. Come on, they can't be worse, can they?

I will also note that having the separate timestamping machines all over the place in the German systems we are describing saves ALL or almost all printing from happening at the ticket vending machine. You simply pop out a ticket and let the timestamping be done by a dedicated machine for that purpose.

[uptownliving]

The technology that these TVMs are using is already outdated. CATS will most likely move to a SMART card system where you buy the card one time and then can add value to it at the TVMs, on Buses and various outlets. This would cut out the paper tickets and the timestamps and magnetic strip encoding. The card will automatically handle transfers and round trips etc. Houston just switched to a SMART card developed by ACS for their Transit System.

There is also testing being done with Cell Phones out in San Fran that have embedded Smart chips. You pass your phone by the electronic reader before you board. The nice thing with this system is that you can set it up to automatically charge your Credit Card a set amount (say $50) when you go below $10 in remaining Transit Value on the smart chip.

Of course these are all long term changes that are at least 5 years off. In the short term I think that CATS will continue to push ACS to improve the performance of the existing TVMs and they will begin raising up the existing TVMs onto platforms. If they do end up junking the ACS machines then there is a good chance that ACS will end up sueing the City since they havnt paid them anywhere near the $2M contract price. They would also have to start a whole new bid process that ACS could bid for and if they are the lowest bidder then State Law would require the city to pick them. So due to the laws we have in place the city can't just go out and buy from a vendor they want. There is precedence though for a system like Charlotte's junking their original TVMs. Houston junked their original TVMs made by Cubic and awarded the new contract to ACS and guess what...they got the same model we did and seem to like it. However Houston is still in court with the original manufacterer fighting over how much money they are owed.

[monsoon]

^The law requires bidding to go out to the lowest bidder that "meets specifications".

So either ACS is not meeting the specifications put forth for these machines and the city is perfectly in it's right to terminate the contract, or and I would guess more likely, that CATS did not give ACS detailed specifications. If the latter is the case, then the fault of the poorly performing machines lies squarely in CATS' lap and we have yet again another blunder on their part that is going to end up costing a lot more money than it should have.

In summary it's either ACS that is at fault or CATS. It's not the fault of NC State law.

[orulz]

When TTA ordered their fareboxes for the buses, they had very detailed specifications (ie, reads a dollar bill and dispenses a ticket within x seconds, executes y transactions per minute, accepts dollar bills with dogears of z size, mtbf, etc) so I imagine that CATS probably had similar performance requirements. If they didn't have standards like that, it's a gross omission; there's no way to deem the performance unacceptable in that case.

Chances are, CATS is giving the vendor a certain amount of time to rectify the situation. as if they can in fact fix it, that will be faster and less expensive than starting from scratch with a new vendor and a new development cycle.

Edited March 19, 2008 by orulz