Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[MilZ]

To an extent, it also figures that as dense residential projects fill in further away from uptown, more services & restaurants have located where the new population grows (walking/biking distance). For example, think about the radius of walk friendly businesses that have popped up around all of the residential projects in Bland/East-West over the past few years. Residents no longer need to hop on the train every time thanks to the local growth.

[archiham04]

This conversation reminds me of an article last year in the Atlantic last year that suggested that a successful TOD (transit oriented development) did not necessarily need the T.  Which leads me to the question... why not simply rezone Central Ave (and similar corridors) NOW for TOD and see what development arrives?...

 

 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/housing/2013/06/transit-might-not-be-essential-transit-oriented-development/5851/

[MilZ]

This conversation reminds me of an article last year in the Atlantic last year that suggested that a successful TOD (transit oriented development) did not necessarily need the T.  Which leads me to the question... why not simply rezone Central Ave (and similar corridors) NOW for TOD and see what development arrives?...

 

 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/housing/2013/06/transit-might-not-be-essential-transit-oriented-development/5851/

I'm guessing you mean just zone the area with density requirements. If that is the case, it removes the entire incentive of connectivity that developers and residents would benefit from. 

 

If I invest in a building a at Scaleybark (pretend luxury residential), I can pitch its connectivity to Uptown, Southend, etc. (and eventually UNCC etc.) to all the tenants.  One day, more density will grow in around me, also using the benefits provided by the light rail.  

 

If Scaleybark had no light rail, I could maybe get permission to build the same dense building, but what benefits would my residents get from living in a nice building in the middle of an aging stretch of South Blvd, where they still have to drive to work and entertainment north on a congested South Blvd not relieved of traffic from the light rail?

[birky]

The blue line, i think, is pretty much a 1 way destination with the primary Point of getting people in and out of uptown.

 

...

I would imagine an employment or entertainment destination south of SouthEnd would be the best way to grow blue line numbers (even more)

I think this is key. As office space develops over time along the blue line, you'll see more ridership in both directions...people going from south end to Uptown and vice versa.

 

We also could see a rise in ridership as surface lots are eliminated in Uptown.  (To be honest, I'm not sure exactly how that affects total number of spaces in the area, but assuming it's decreasing, that could force more people into taking the light rail)

Edited January 16, 2014 by birky

[Guest]

To an extent, it also figures that as dense residential projects fill in further away from uptown, more services & restaurants have located where the new population grows (walking/biking distance). For example, think about the radius of walk friendly businesses that have popped up around all of the residential projects in Bland/East-West over the past few years. Residents no longer need to hop on the train every time thanks to the local growth.

Has anyone else passed the Scaleybark intersection and just had that feeling that that area will never be anything but a "Corridor of Crap" and that there is no hopes for higher density residential, at least not in our lifetimes... Maybe its just me, I just cannot even HOPE for it to happen, I just can't see it happening, and it makes me super sad.

[MilZ]

Has anyone else passed the Scaleybark intersection and just had that feeling that that area will never be anything but a "Corridor of Crap" and that there is no hopes for higher density residential, at least not in our lifetimes... Maybe its just me, I just cannot even HOPE for it to happen, I just can't see it happening, and it makes me super sad.

Didn't someone have a couple office buildings and a master plan lined up about 3-4 years ago around the public parking lot?  Of course I'm assuming it fell through, but I'd imagine that it would only take one ambitious project like that to begin the transformation.

[Norm2]

One thing that I think is holding back ridership on the blue line from increasing is the lack of affordable housing that is being built. All of these luxury apartments with parking decks are being built and have $1,000  a month rent at a minimum. If you built more affordable apartments along the line, then you would get more ridership for people to have to transfer to buses in uptown. I do agree though that once the BLE opens then the ridership numbers should grow for bar hopping and students traveling to UNCC.

[ah59396]

Has anyone else passed the Scaleybark intersection and just had that feeling that that area will never be anything but a "Corridor of Crap" and that there is no hopes for higher density residential, at least not in our lifetimes... Maybe its just me, I just cannot even HOPE for it to happen, I just can't see it happening, and it makes me super sad.

 

 

Every.  damn.  day.

[RugbyPike#11]

Has anyone else passed the Scaleybark intersection and just had that feeling that that area will never be anything but a "Corridor of Crap" and that there is no hopes for higher density residential, at least not in our lifetimes... Maybe its just me, I just cannot even HOPE for it to happen, I just can't see it happening, and it makes me super sad.

 

I would be curious to hear why you guys get this feeling.  There's a lot of development popping up around New Bern Station, which is less than a mile north of Scaleybark. This is happening at the same time we're getting infill projects further north on the Blue Line.  You don't think it's possible that an apartment developer will have the audacity to slap "South End" on a Scaleybark project and initiate some development further down the line?  Or do you see any new residential being exclusively infill within the limits of South End?  I just assumed that some developer looking for a quick buck would become interested in the cheaper land around Scaleybark and build something there. 

[nonillogical]

Has anyone else passed the Scaleybark intersection and just had that feeling that that area will never be anything but a "Corridor of Crap" and that there is no hopes for higher density residential, at least not in our lifetimes... Maybe its just me, I just cannot even HOPE for it to happen, I just can't see it happening, and it makes me super sad.

I don't feel that way. If you had told me when I moved here almost 6 years ago that developments like Colonial and Fountains would be going in around New Bern, I wouldn't have believed you. I think Scaleybark being more of a large blank slate just means that they're going to wait until more of a master-planned or destination-level development is feasible, so it's going to be a little while. But that area already doesn't feel quite like the desolate fringe of town that I thought it did a few short years ago, because I have already seen TOD creep more than halfway there. 

[Urbanity]

I do think Scaleybark has a decent future ahead of it and I don't think it will be that far off.   One of the things I LOVED about the Pappas Proposal was that it was very mixed use from apartments to retail to office.  I thought that took advantage of the multiroad (Tryon, S. Blvd, Old Pineville, Scaleybark) access which should be for more than just apartments.

 

Granted I acknowledge the plans just seem too grandiose in retrospect, but I do agree with another poster that the blank slate is a positive to me.  Everything along the Blue Line can't be for the sole sake of living there and working in Uptown.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Urbanity

[Guest]

Didn't someone have a couple office buildings and a master plan lined up about 3-4 years ago around the public parking lot?  Of course I'm assuming it fell through, but I'd imagine that it would only take one ambitious project like that to begin the transformation.

 

Yes they did, I think the immediate Scaleybark Area will densify, but i see that as the boundary. Its really hard for me to see anything happening between scaleybark and woodlawn. Its just so depressing to drive through.

I would be curious to hear why you guys get this feeling.  There's a lot of development popping up around New Bern Station, which is less than a mile north of Scaleybark. This is happening at the same time we're getting infill projects further north on the Blue Line.  You don't think it's possible that an apartment developer will have the audacity to slap "South End" on a Scaleybark project and initiate some development further down the line?  Or do you see any new residential being exclusively infill within the limits of South End?  I just assumed that some developer looking for a quick buck would become interested in the cheaper land around Scaleybark and build something there. 

 

 

I don't feel that way. If you had told me when I moved here almost 6 years ago that developments like Colonial and Fountains would be going in around New Bern, I wouldn't have believed you. I think Scaleybark being more of a large blank slate just means that they're going to wait until more of a master-planned or destination-level development is feasible, so it's going to be a little while. But that area already doesn't feel quite like the desolate fringe of town that I thought it did a few short years ago, because I have already seen TOD creep more than halfway there. 

I guess... We will just have to see. There is just NO connectivity between Old pineville and southblvd, lots of roads and infrastructure need to be built. You go an entire MILE(!!!!) between Woodlawn and Scaleybark without a single road/intersection, thats the antithesis of urban development!!!

[archiham04]

I'm guessing you mean just zone the area with density requirements. If that is the case, it removes the entire incentive of connectivity that developers and residents would benefit from. 

 

If I invest in a building a at Scaleybark (pretend luxury residential), I can pitch its connectivity to Uptown, Southend, etc. (and eventually UNCC etc.) to all the tenants.  One day, more density will grow in around me, also using the benefits provided by the light rail.  

 

If Scaleybark had no light rail, I could maybe get permission to build the same dense building, but what benefits would my residents get from living in a nice building in the middle of an aging stretch of South Blvd, where they still have to drive to work and entertainment north on a congested South Blvd not relieved of traffic from the light rail?

I don't think that rezoning to higher density by itself would work, but I do think that there is some missed opportunity on the Central Ave Corridor in particular.  If the city put together small area plans around the future streetcar stations, and went ahead and rezoned the land and made Bus Station improvements on par with the future streetcars stops... i think you would see a boost in investment.  These areas might create the walkable neighborhoods for a fraction of the cost of this $40million/mile development crack that the city is promising.  edit... 40 mil/mile not 4

Edited January 16, 2014 by archiham04

[Urbanity]

 development crack that the city is promising.  

Whu?

[archiham04]

Streetcar = Crack (for development)

 

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the streetcar, and hope that I comes sooner than later...  but all of this planning and waiting, and delaying is getting in the way... I think there is some DOing that can be done in the interim. 

 

The wavering on independence for instance (  BRT vs rail ) has pushed that project out into the abyss... in the meantime there is an express lane that functions as a BRT for many miles that we could plan development around right now... not 20 years from now.

[southslider]

Central Ave already is upzoned via PED. Well, at least to the new Harris Teeter. Past there, it's conventional business and multi-family zoning. The Midwood section is proof you can have TOD without rail transit. You just need good bones, good market, and favorable zoning.

[Urbanity]

Streetcar = Crack (for development)

 

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the streetcar, and hope that I comes sooner than later...  but all of this planning and waiting, and delaying is getting in the way... I think there is some DOing that can be done in the interim. 

 

The wavering on independence for instance (  BRT vs rail ) has pushed that project out into the abyss... in the meantime there is an express lane that functions as a BRT for many miles that we could plan development around right now... not 20 years from now.

I kind of feel the discussion streetcar and independence brt vs lrt  TOD really should be in the Charlotte Transit general thread versus this one but I got to say one point you make of planning and waiting and delayed development seems to be made in a vacuum that ignores the reality of 2008 until sometime late last year.

 

[MilZ]

I don't think saying "streetcar may come to this area within a decade" will draw investment the same way an actual streetcar would. Cincy just about scrapped their streetcar after track was well into being laid.

It's true P-M is in pretty good shape, but potential with connectivity to uptown is still better ($) than the potential without it.

[nyxmike]

Question - the Blue Line Capacity project is only extending the platforms at 2 stations? And all the stations along the Blue Line Extension to UNCC will be built to accommodate 3 car trains? So what about the rest of the existing stations along the Blue Line? 

 

How will 3 car trains run if only 2 stations on the existing line can accommodate them? 

[RugbyPike#11]

It looks like the expansion will be at 485 and Stonewall. Maybe the lead car at 485 could detach and provide express service to uptown. Then the express train could catch up to the previous north bound train and provide three car service on the BLE? Would that make sense? It's early.

[southslider]

BLE will start with more frequent two-car trains until all stations are upgraded. Otherwise, three-car trains may only be used during special events. Trains would stop at all stations, but the third car would only open its doors at the extended stations.

[Urbanity]

Just an anecdotal chuckle/cry.  

 

I am amazed at how many people I work with on Campus still have no idea where the BLE will run in its final few stops. Some think it will end at the 485, some have no idea that it is going to run down Tryon in the University City area (I had two people tell me it was impossible) and some think it will not actually stop on campus!     My favorite - Just yesterday someone actually said they thought the city cancelled the whole thing a few years ago!

 

Le sigh!

[HopHead]

Just an anecdotal chuckle/cry.  

 

I am amazed at how many people I work with on Campus still have no idea where the BLE will run in its final few stops. Some think it will end at the 485, some have no idea that it is going to run down Tryon in the University City area (I had two people tell me it was impossible) and some think it will not actually stop on campus!     My favorite - Just yesterday someone actually said they thought the city cancelled the whole thing a few years ago!

 

Le sigh!

 

Clearly they are not UrbanPlanet posters!

[15895]

Clearly they are not UrbanPlanet posters!

They're too busy posting on CityData :0

[go_vertical]

This is exactly what I have to slap myself with a reality check about. What many of us on this site perceive as simply information any urban dweller should be aware of is just lost on the average person out there. This is why there is so much opposition to civic projects that are a necessity to any growing metropolis. If more people took the time to educate themselves about why their tax dollars are being spent and how the finished product can benefit their lives then more and more residents would jump on board. Sure, some will always oppose this stuff but many more will understand the need.