South Light Rail Transit

[graydog]

Thanks for the posting dub. I liked the final designs. I like the openness of the older Trade St. design a little more. Seems more urban. Sometimes a smaller budget is a good thing. I do hope we can keep the brick.

[MZT]

Hmmm. So is it now going to be called "Arena Station" instead of "7th Street Station"?

Maybe "3rd Street Station" will become "Wachovia Station" -- and ther'll be some money for the bricks.

[dubone]

Hmmm. So is it now going to be called "Arena Station" instead of "7th Street Station"?

Maybe "3rd Street Station" will become "Wachovia Station" -- and ther'll be some money for the bricks.

No, the station at Trade Street and the Arena is different that the one at 7th Street Station and Imaginon.

Here is the map at http://www.charlottefuture.com which is probably the latest on what they will call each of the stations:

[MZT]

I think Rensselaer should just be called "South End". It's too hard to spell, and that's just a minor residential street anyway. (Although I suppose it might look odd to a Charlotte newcomer... when the end of the line is even further south...)

[Mobuchu]

They have added quite a bit more to the maintanence facility structure since last time I took pics.

[dubone]

There is so much else going on, it is hard to focus on this older angel-pin debate, but I finally heard back clarification from CATS regarding capacity. Many of these questions were already pretty much agreed on, but for people who aren't familiar, I'll still list all the answers I got:

• CATS is ordering 16 LRVs, each of which has a maximum capacity of 236.

• The current signalling and engineering results in a 30 minute travel time in each direction, 60 minutes round trip.

• There will be 7.5 minutes between each train during rush hour and 15 minutes during slower times, depending on ridership needs.

• CATS does plan to run 2-car sets of trains, for a total capacity per train of 472.

• However, they will only do that in response to ridership needs. If they keep 7.5 minute headways, they will only have 8 trains, but some might just be single cars, and others double car trains, with some backup cars in the rail yard.

• In the case of special events, in a scenario where they are expecting maximum ridership, they would have all 16 cars out running in 8 2-car sets. In that case, the maximum number of boardings from a single station (assuming the trains all arrive empty) within an hour would be 3776.

• They will stay tuned in to and manage the actual ridership, so that they don't have too much or too little capacity at a given time. If they start to bump against the maximum LRT capacity for special events, CATS will supplement with other modes of transit as well.

• All trains not in service will be stored in the rail yard. All LRVs require maintenance and upkeep. Quite often a car that is coming close to it's scheduled maintenance will make a morning run and will then be pulled from service for maintenance. Also, pulling the unused fleet into the yard allows us to perform cleaning campaigns on a rotational basis so that not all cleaning needs to be performed at night thus impacting other maintenance that needs to be performed, such as, daily safety inspections.

So, to be clear, while I was correct on the mathematics of the maximum capacity, M.m was correct that they will rarely be running at maximum capacity, because of the need for maintenance, etc.

I hope that clears up some of the open questions.

[monsoon]

Thanks for the info as it confirms much of what I was thinking.

Maximum capacity is limited by the expected service level that you have at each station. This has to be maintained to keep up ridership as unmet expectations are the quickest way to kill ridership. So to put it in other words, if some expects to see a train in X amount of time, you can't change that to Y because elsewhere you are moving all your trains to handle a basketball game. So at any period of time, CATS has to have a minimum number of trains providing routine service. The trains that are above this amount are what you have left to increase capacity. Its because of this that I don't think they will have any plans that would routinely involve 100% of the trains in double train configuration. It could happen, but in in practical terms, it never will.

[orulz]

I imagine, however, that the "maxiumim capacity" figures are conservative. In Japan, you sometimes see trains crammed with 3 times the rated capacity, perhaps more.

Now I'm not saying that folks in Charlotte would go to the same extreme as as people on a Tokyo subway, but I've even seen NCSU Wolfline buses exceed their rated standing-room-only capacity by perhaps 20 people (that's an estimate, I wasn't really counting. The rated capacity for the NCSU buses is 65 people or so, if I recall.) That's right here in NC, mind you. I see sardine-packed Chapel Hill Transit buses pretty often, too.

In a pinch and with some transit cops or regular policemen directing traffic and checking tickets on the platform, I bet 700 or 800 people could fit shoulder-to-shoulder on a two-vehicle LRT train. LRT trains ride much more smoothly than buses, too, so it would be less uncomfortable.

Will there ever be occasion for so many people to ride the light rail? Who knows. I hope so

[monsoon]

Now I'm not saying that folks in Charlotte would go to the same extreme as as people on a Tokyo subway, but I've even seen NCSU Wolfline buses exceed their rated standing-room-only capacity by perhaps 20 people (that's an estimate, I wasn't really counting. The rated capacity for the NCSU buses is 65 people or so, if I recall.) That's right here in NC, mind you. I see sardine-packed Chapel Hill Transit buses pretty often, too.

First time one of those overloaded buses has an accident resulting in a pile of human chili, that practice will end.

[MZT]

Construction materials are showing up at the Archdale and Tyvola station sites now. And workers are running sidewalk past the Cargill plant.

[dubone]

Construction materials are showing up at the Archdale and Tyvola station sites now. And workers are running sidewalk past the Cargill plant.

Too bad the "art" budget for the line didn't include something to hide the back of the Cargill plant. That is one seriously ugly facility. Those chain-link fences with brown place slats don't really hide it much.

[MZT]

It's unfortunate that Cargill got such a nice, high piece of ground, too. I understand that industry needs to go somewhere, that the the city also needs jobs and employers, which aren't always pretty. But..... oh well.

[Lady Celeste]

No, the station at Trade Street and the Arena is different that the one at 7th Street Station and Imaginon.

Here is the map at http://www.charlottefuture.com which is probably the latest on what they will call each of the stations:

Please excuse my ignorance but how close does this line go to SouthPark Mall and how close is it to say The Vue, The Avenue, or Two Ten Trade?

[RiverwoodCLT]

South Park Mall about 3 or 4 miles.

Two Ten Trade about 20 feet or less in the back of it.

The Avenue about 3 blocks

The Vue between 5 or 6 blocks but it will be near the Transit Center on West Trade Street.

[CLTfanatic]

Excuse the fact that I really dont want to read 43 pages of posts, but I have a quick question.

At site like arrowood, what are they doing with the tracks? are they going to have it where they stop traffic, or are they building the tracks over the road?

[dubone]

South Park Mall about 3 or 4 miles.

Two Ten Trade about 20 feet or less in the back of it.

The Avenue about 3 blocks

The Vue between 5 or 6 blocks but it will be near the Transit Center on East Trade Street.

South Park is the only project you listed that isn't really in walking distance from a station of the South LRT.

The South Park area, however, is fairly vehemently opposed to transit. They aren't just indifferent to it because they won't use it, but rather they tend to view as a blight.

I suspect, however, that traffic will be so unbearable in a decade or so, that they'll probably start looking at a transit spur to go to the area.

Excuse the fact that I really dont want to read 43 pages of posts, but I have a quick question.

At site like arrowood, what are they doing with the tracks? are they going to have it where they stop traffic, or are they building the tracks over the road?

The tracks will go on a bridge over Arrowood, and the station will be on top of the bridge, directly over the Arrowood.

Bridges will be over Arrowood, Archdale, Tyvola, Woodlawn, Stonewall, 3rd, 4th, and Trade. The rest will be at grade crossings.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think Rensselaer should just be called "South End". It's too hard to spell, and that's just a minor residential street anyway.

It seems they have a naming convention that uses the most nearby cross street as the name of the station, so I would think they wouldn't want to stray from that. The only station that appears to stray from this is the Transportation Center/Arena Station, but those are also major public facilites and not neighborhoods.

Those are cool renderings BTW.

[Lady Celeste]

South Park Mall about 3 or 4 miles.

Two Ten Trade about 20 feet or less in the back of it.

The Avenue about 3 blocks

The Vue between 5 or 6 blocks but it will be near the Transit Center on West Trade Street.

Perfect!!!!!!!!!

So, one would be able to live Uptown....hop on the LRT and head south; catch the shuttle that runs every 15 minutes (I'm foretelling the future) to SouthPark, shop at Neiman's and be back home in time to "freshen" up and change into that Armani dress purchased and still have time to make it to the "champagne social" at the museum. Wow, the thought is almost as good as............ummmmmmm.........chocolate.

This is a great route. I love it!

[dubone]

Perfect!!!!!!!!!

So, one would be able to live Uptown....hop on the LRT and head south; catch the shuttle that runs every 15 minutes (I'm foretelling the future) to SouthPark, shop at Neiman's and be back home in time to "freshen" up and change into that Armani dress purchased and still have time to make it to the "champagne social" at the museum. Wow, the thought is almost as good as............ummmmmmm.........chocolate.

This is a great route. I love it!

Yes, theoretically you and the three other ladies that are interested in both high fashion and transit could do that.

The rest of the South Park ladies will more likely just pick up their BMW SUV from valet and drive home to Carmel Road and only hear about "Uptown" from the six oclock news.

You do actually bring up a great point about a shuttle. SouthPark Mall has a transportation center, and CATS will certainly be running consistent shuttles between Tyvola Station and SouthPark. They will also likely be timed with the trains as much as possible, so it wouldn't be that inefficient to ride transit to SouthPark compared to driving if you live near a transit station. However, most likely they will need to bring a second person to help carry the bags.

[Lady Celeste]

Can I let you in on a little secret Dubone....

As much as I hate to say it, I would probably be at the valet with them. I do however want to work on my trepidation about public transportation. I ride it from time to time where I live and quite honestly I will say to anyone who has the same trepidation for riding public transportation....WE SHOULD GET OVER OURSELVES! The times I have ridden the train, it was pleasant and I had no problems....and I'm definitely not the most imposing woman.

Charlotte is such a pleasant city and I personally know many New Yorkers who reside in or around Uptown. I also know about four more who are moving to Charlotte in the near future.

In time, as these people move to Charlotte....and they are moving from small (900-2000 sq ft) Manhattan apartments that cost between $600,000 to $1.4 million....the need for public transportation to major venues will be a necessity. These people will not settle in the SouthPark area. I talk to one couple almost daily. While their combined earning power is extremely high, they have no adversion to riding public transportation. They really only use their cars on the weekends or maybe every now and then at night. Driving around Manhattan is not the easiest endeavor. These are the people moving to Charlotte...they will get there and love it and tell more northern weary New Yorkers about Charlotte. In time you will see more people riding the LRT from Uptown to purchase goods from Neiman's at SouthPark...more than likely they would not want to drive their Range Rover unless they have to.

From what I read about Charlotte's transit plans, they may not have to.

[Norm2]

Sounds like Charlotte may have a bright futre for its public transportation system after all. We just need to get more affluent people to start riding it!

[MZT]

Funny, just today I heard someone with a northern accent, walking some people around uptown and talking to them about what's what. And I have new neighbors next door from Buffalo. If there really are a lot of NorthEasterners moving here, that could explain a bit why the urban residential market has performed better than predicted.

Anyway, getting back to transportation... CATS would probably continue to run Bus#31 from the rail station, east along Woodlawn, to South Park.

[dubone]

Hopefully, they will brand it a little better than "#31".

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/13527167.htm

The bridge girders will start getting installed this week over Tyvola Road. These bridges will start looking substatially complete in a few months.

[Norm2]

yay!