South Light Rail Transit

[monsoon]

This is what I have always said. 1 trainset = maximum of 236 people.

And, I have not seen any plans however that would indicate that CATS would operate the trains as just 8 trainsets. Since there are 15 stations, which means 30 stops, I don't think you could serve these at a rate of 7.5 minutes with just 8 trains. Especially considering out of service units.

Most likely you are going to see 16, 236 person units operating on the tracks.

[dubone]

Oh gosh, okay.

Hahaha. I love debates where everyone is saying the same thing. .

Actually, CATS does plan to run doubled-up trainsets. The original plan was for the tripled-up configuration run every 15 minutes. However, when 300' stations proved too expensive, they switched to 200' stations, and plans for doubled-up trains every 7.5 minutes. That way, they have increased capacity, and frequency, but smaller capital costs for stations.

I was using that doubled-up configuration in my numbers a few weeks ago. 2 LRVs x 236 max capacity per LRV = 472 max capacity/ doubled-up LRV set x (60 min/7.5 min frequency = 8 trains/hour) = 3776 max capacity per hour per station.

I thought your 2000 number meant that doubled-up trainsets had the 236 capacity (which is a possible reading of CATS's site). But now I realize the confusion was about the fact that they plan to double up the trains.

By the way, the indication that CATS will be running doubled-up trains was reinforced during the Open House meeting last month. The info is repeated in a number of CATS's newsletters and meeting minutes online. One example is in the meeting minutes from 1/26/05 here.

23. At a previous meeting you mentioned that there will be shorter trains and shorter platforms. Is this a cost savings measure?

[monsoon]

What is the expected travel time from Pineville to the last station downtown, and how does that compare to serving each station at 7.5 minute intervals? And same for the other direction, 15 more stops.

[dubone]

It will take a train 30 minutes from 485 to 7th Street. It will take a train 30 minutes from 7th St to 485.

They will have 8 drivers with 8 sets of 2-car trains. At any given moment, they will have 4 trains driving north and 4 trains driving south.

30/7.5 = 4. That means during first train's trip north, the next 3 trains will start heading north. When the 5th train starts heading north, the first train will start head south, as 30 minutes have passed.

Train________485_____7th_____485

Train 1:.....7:00:00.....7:30:00.....8:00:00

Train 2:.....7:07:30.....7:37:30.....8:07:30

Train 3:.....7:15:00.....7:45:00.....8:15:00

Train 4:.....7:22:30.....7:52:30.....8:22:30

Train 5:.....7:30:00.....8:00:00.....8:30:00

Train 6:.....7:37:30.....8:07:30.....8:37:30

Train 7:.....7:45:00.....8:15:00.....8:45:00

Train 8:.....7:52:30.....8:22:30.....8:30:00

Train 1:.....8:00:00.....8:30:00.....9:00:00

and so on.

They have 8 trainsets (with 2 cars each), 16 cars, 8 drivers, with 7.5 minutes between trains.

By the way, this is only for rush hour. During non-peak hours, they will revert to 15 minute headways, and put half the trains in the garage.

[MZT]

How reaalistic is it, that all 16 trains will be in operational order? I suppose it could be possible on special event days... handle maintenance during off-peak and plan ahead.

[dubone]

How reaalistic is it, that all 16 trains will be in operational order? I suppose it could be possible on special event days... handle maintenance during off-peak and plan ahead.

Well, for the first few years, if one or two trains are broken, they might be able to get away without them. If they are consistently filling up the trains, CATS should probably exercise the option for more trains to have backup if necessary.

[atlrvr]

I was wondering if it is possible to connect upto 4 trainsets for Bobcats and other arena events, and then essentially make two stops at each station, to board and unload passengergs.

[dubone]

I think the basic answer is no. The stations along the line are only built to handle 2-car trainsets. Even if the Trade Street station is long enough, people who get on car 3 and 4 would not be able to get off at other stations.

Eventually, they could potentially expand the stations and string 4 cars together (no more than 4 are ever possible because of block lengths downtown). However, they'd do better to just keep the 200' stations and increase capacity by increasing frequency. Houston has 3 minute headways at some times of day.

[monsoon]

Train________485_____7th_____485

Train 1:.....7:00:00.....7:30:00.....8:00:00

Train 2:.....7:07:30.....7:37:30.....8:07:30

Train 3:.....7:15:00.....7:45:00.....8:15:00

Train 4:.....7:22:30.....7:52:30.....8:22:30

Train 5:.....7:30:00.....8:00:00.....8:30:00

Train 6:.....7:37:30.....8:07:30.....8:37:30

Train 7:.....7:45:00.....8:15:00.....8:45:00

Train 8:.....7:52:30.....8:22:30.....8:30:00

Train 1:.....8:00:00.....8:30:00.....9:00:00

and so on.

They have 8 trainsets (with 2 cars each), 16 cars, 8 drivers, with 7.5 minutes between trains.

By the way, this is only for rush hour. During non-peak hours, they will revert to 15 minute headways, and put half the trains in the garage.

This would say that using Train 1 for example, that it can start at one station and then make 14 more stops in 30 minutes, then reverse direction and make 14 more stops in the next 30 minutes. That would say that not counting reversal time, that travel time between stations for each train including departure and pickup is only 2.14 minutes/station. It really doesn't seem likely.

Cats can't operate this system with just 8 trains. The mathematics doesn't work.

[dubone]

That is the official travel time from one end to an other according to CATS. They have done millions of dollars worth of studies and are building bridges over cross streets in order to obtain that travel time, which is competitive with automobile travel.

The average travel time between stations almost certainly is 2.14 minutes, but that isn't a meaningful number. 8 of the stations are in SouthEnd and Uptown and are only a couple of blocks apart. It is probable that travel time between those stations will be a matter of seconds. It doesn't even take 2 minutes to walk between 7th Street Station and the CTC/Arena on foot.

The suburban stations are about 1.5 miles apart for the most part, and the trains will go ~45 mph. That means the travel time between those stations will be 2 minutes.

I'm not sure what more to say. Those are the engineered numbers and times provided by CATS. The math does work.

[monsoon]

Oh gosh, okay.

Hahaha. I love debates where everyone is saying the same thing. .

Actually, CATS does plan to run doubled-up trainsets. The original plan was for the tripled-up configuration run every 15 minutes. However, when 300' stations proved too expensive, they switched to 200' stations, and plans for doubled-up trains every 7.5 minutes. That way, they have increased capacity, and frequency, but smaller capital costs for stations.

I was using that doubled-up configuration in my numbers a few weeks ago. 2 LRVs x 236 max capacity per LRV = 472 max capacity/ doubled-up LRV set x (60 min/7.5 min frequency = 8 trains/hour) = 3776 max capacity per hour per station.

I thought your 2000 number meant that doubled-up trainsets had the 236 capacity (which is a possible reading of CATS's site). But now I realize the confusion was about the fact that they plan to double up the trains.

By the way, the indication that CATS will be running doubled-up trains was reinforced during the Open House meeting last month. The info is repeated in a number of CATS's newsletters and meeting minutes online. One example is in the meeting minutes from 1/26/05 here.

I think that CATs quote above is still ambiguous as the Avanto LRV can be purchased in a 2 car or 3 car configuration. (per vehicle) CATS doesn't give any numbers that would indicate these are in fact two, 2 car, LRVs connected together.

Also the above schedule doesn't work because you have to assume there will be cars out of service. I have never heard of a transit system that does scheduling assuming 100% of the rolling stock is available.

I think we will have to wait until more percise information is available, but I am sticking with my claim that a train has a max capacity of 236 people.

This is a rendering of the Avanto with the third car added. Note it in the middle. The CATS version is missing the middle Car and one of the connecting sections.

[monsoon]

As a followup, here is a photo of the 3 car Avanto that is being built for a system in France.

Compare that to the 2 car train that CATS is Purchasing.

I think this is what was meant in the CATs quote above where they said they went from 3 car to 2 car LRVs.

[dubone]

I think that CATs quote above is still ambiguous as the Avanto LRV can be purchased in a 2 car or 3 car configuration. (per vehicle) CATS doesn't give any numbers that would indicate these are in fact two, 2 car, LRVs connected together.

The LRV trains they are buying are 93 feet long, similar to the ones delivered to Houston and San Diego, but not as long as the French one pictured. They plan to put two cars together to make it 186 feet long. The engineers from CATS were very clear on this in person in their public meetings. I also think it is also pretty clear in their Q&A answers posted in their meeting minutes that they are planning for 200' long train sets.

They wouldn't be able to fit 16 separate trains of any length on a 60 minute roundtrip route with 7.5 minute headways. The maximum is 8 trains with that frequency unless they lowered the speed.

CATS is also very clear on the 60 minute round trip and 30 min per direction travel time. I think that makes sense in general, too, as it takes roughly 25 minutes to travel from 485 to 7th Street on South Blvd by car during times where there is no traffic (late at night). LRT will not have to stop for cross-street red lights as car traffic does, as they have bridges and crossing arms to keep them moving.

For me, the only ambiguous number is whether the 93' long LRV has a max capacity of 236, or whether it is the 186' long 2-car set that has that capacity. That is definitely ambiguous in CATS's and Siemen's materials. I thought everyone was in agreement on that, but now I'm not sure anymore. I'm going to ask the CATS to clarify that.

They are not assuming that 100% will always be operational. They are simply saying that when all of them are operational, they will be operated as 8 2-car sets during rush hour. If one or two break down, they will either decide to decouple and run a few single car trains on the same frequency (6 2-car trains and 2 1-car trains) or lower the frequency (7 2-car trains with one scheduled time skipped). I can't imagine why they should keep some LRVs garaged during rush hour, just so that they have a backup when one breaks down.

The information that I have stated are the official numbers from CATS, not my own personal opinions. All of it is available to be read on their website, if you don't mind combing through their presentations and meeting minutes.

[Mobuchu]

Dubone has it right. At the open house we were told that two trains would be coupled together face to face. Passengers would have to pick one or the other and not be able to pass between to the two. And to reverse direction the conductor would have to get out and walk around to the other side.

The capacity debate is now confusing me, I'll stop by their office on South Blvd tomorrow if I have time to clear that up.

[skylinedrive]

Both CATS and Seimens have been consistent that the capacity for each vehicle is 236. I am not sure where the confusion on this is coming from.

For those of you that still have doubts that the max capacity will be 472 when CATS connects 2 vehicles togther, consider this simple calulation:

(Max Capacity) / (Length of Train)

(236 people) / (184ft) = 1.3 people per ft of the train's length. That is almost a single file line of people on the train at Max Capacity. Does that make sense? No.

The Max Capacity is 472 when 2 vehicles are put together.

(472 people) / (184ft) = 2.6 people per ft of the train's length.

[dubone]

I think you are right, that it really does sound most logical that CATS and Siemens are saying that the capacity per LRV is 236.

The one thing that has me questioning it is the Max Capacity listed for Houston's trains, which are very similar to Charlotte's. They have it at 148 (AW3) (whatever "AW3" means) in this document:

http://transportation.usa.siemens.com/DS/S70%20Houston.pdf

(Note that in other documents, they have a much higher Max Capacity, like "200" in the press release link posted last week)

I'd like to hear official CATS confirmation of that number, and at that point I'll be completely confident in my calculations.

[monsoon]

For those of you that still have doubts that the max capacity will be 472 when CATS connects 2 vehicles togther, consider this simple calulation:

Nobody is confused that two, 2-car LRVs linked together can carry 472 people as shown in the San Diego example. That has already been well explained above.

The confusion comes from the fact from what does CATS mean when it says that it built platforms for 2 cars instead of 3 cars. Does this mean 3 car LRVs and they had to settle for 2 car LRVs? Or does it mean 3 2-car LRVs connected together and they had to settle for 2, 2-car LRVs connected together. It is ambiguous.

(236 people) / (184ft) = 1.3 people per ft of the train's length. That is almost a single file line of people on the train at Max Capacity. Does that make sense? No.

It makes perfect sense if you are required to leave extra room for emergencies and future expansion. The last thing you want to do is to come back and have to retro fit the platforms if you decide you need longer trains.

[orulz]

I think they mean that the platform will be long enough for 2xtwo-car vehicles, instead of 3xtwo-car vehicles. Not sure, though. You're right, it is ambiguous.

[dubone]

What is it so unbelievable that CATS plans to double up the trains?

That is a fact, confirmed by multiple people who have had conversations with CATS representatives and engineers.

I have ellaborated in quite a bit of detail as to how the system is planned to be run by CATS. Where does my math go wrong?

How can 16 separate trains drive with 7.5 minute headways on a 60 minute roundtrip line? 60/7.5 = 8.

Which number is wrong? Does it actually takes 2 hours for trains to make a round trip? Are the headways actually 3.25 minutes? Why is it so hard to believe that only number that makes sense here is 8 trains, doubled up?

I really am open to being corrected here if I am wrong. But the more I do the math, the more I am convinced that I was correct originally.

[monsoon]

Why is it so hard to believe that only number that makes sense here is 8 trains, doubled up?

Because the schedule breaks if they have to take a train out of service. And you have to assume they will have to because these cars need routine maintenance and it is unlikely they are going to reserve that for when the system is not running.

The system is more flexable if they run it as single LRVs and not doubles.

[dubone]

But if one breaks down, why could they not just decouple the broken one from the working one and run a 1-car train during that time slot?

If they have a 2-car train scheduled every 7.5 minutes, they can still service the station every 7.5 minutes if up to 8 of the LRVs are broken. They would just show up with smaller 1-car trains.

Or are you saying CATS plans to run 8 of their 16 LRVs and leave the other 8 garaged as back ups?

[monsoon]

But if one breaks down, why could they not just decouple the broken one from the working one and run a 1-car train during that time slot?

If they have a 2-car train scheduled every 7.5 minutes, they can still service the station every 7.5 minutes if up to 8 of the LRVs are broken. They would just show up with smaller 1-car trains.

Or are you saying CATS plans to run 8 of their 16 LRVs and leave the other 8 garaged as back ups?

No. I am saying they plan to have 16 individual LRVs and most likely will run a subset of them at any given time. And another option that we have not discussed is they may creat just a couple of doubles and leave the rest as singles even during busy times. But they can't put in a schedule assuming 100% of rolling stock is needed. That will just lead to aggravation from the customers when trains are not available.

[skylinedrive]

The one thing that has me questioning it is the Max Capacity listed for Houston's trains, which are very similar to Charlotte's. They have it at 148 (AW3) (whatever "AW3" means) in this document:

http://transportation.usa.siemens.com/DS/S70%20Houston.pdf

(Note that in other documents, they have a much higher Max Capacity, like "200" in the press release link posted last week)

AW3 is a Full Load, but not a Max Load or AW4.

AW3 - Weight of vehicle with full load - full seated load plus standees at 6 passengers/m2.

AW4 - Weight of vehicle with crush load - full seated load plus standees at 8 passengers/m2.

The 236 number for the CATS LRV is the AW4 number.

[skylinedrive]

I think that it will be possible to run them all doubled up for max capacity during rush hours or special events. CATS will have plenty of time for maintenance during non-peak hours, the weekends, and from 1am-5am everyday.

These machines are expensive, why not use all of them at the same time if the demand is there?

My guess is the only time we will see doubled up cars is from 7am-9am, 4pm-6pm on the weekdays, and for Panthers games, and maybe Bobcats games. All other times they will be running single cars on a 15 minute headway.

[dubone]

Here are some renderings from early on in the Uptown Station design process. I think that these might actually be closer to what really gets built.

Some of the embellishments that were designed later in the process were the expensive items that got cancelled. One of those changes, which is definitely cut, was the carport-like structure that covered the whole Trade Street bridge. With that cover cancelled, the bridge will just get the regular rain shelters that are pictured in these renderings.

I'm not sure if the bridges will still get the brick facades, however. There is a strong possibility that they remain, as the bridges must be widened at both Third and Trade Streets no matter what. Brick veneer shouldn't add too much cost. However, if they are needing to cut deep, the line items for brick veneer is certainly less important that some of the other fundamental needs in those stations. If that happens, then it is possible that we'll get a concrete facade instead, which is how most of the bridges are built along the S corridor. Although less attractive, it would certainly be a reasonable change to keep costs in line.

3rd St Station

Facade of the bridges that must be widened

Crossing at 6th Street

Trade Street Station