South Light Rail Transit

[dubone]

As you guys can see, the North line is next with the Trade and Elizabeth streetcar either simultaneous or slightly after. Both of which will most likely be done within 4-5 years from now.

After CATS has the first 3 lines running, the SE, W, and the NE phase I will be built, within 8-9 years from now.

In 2013, the core of the system will be built, with lines in all five directions plus a short streetcar downtown. The subsequent 12 years of the next 20 years will basically just be the street car spurs/extensions and the University City extension.

This is the distribution to allow capital and operating costs to fit within the projected .5 cent local sales tax through 2025.

There are many permutations, though, if federal standards cause some lines to be downgraded to busses (most likely the U-City LRT and the SE LRT, which isn't even in the 2025 horizon budget if it gets approved). If some lines fall out, the capital and operating money saved, could either go into upgrading another line, increasing local share of a line, or more busses.

[monsoon]

2025? Indeed.

It's probably because why they call it the 2025 plan.

[dubone]

2025? Indeed.

All of this mass transit will certainly be necessary by that time... How big of a city is Charlotte supposed to be by then?

no one knows. but it could conceivably double in size.

How big will this city be by 2013, when a sizeable majority of the system will be built?

Frankly, we have quite a bit of room, though, to wait for 2 or 4 years if an anti-transit congress or administration takes control. We are lucky to have gotten our federal funds for the S line during the current anti-transit administration and congress, but the pendulum will likely swing back. Considering high gas prices and politics supporting energy independence, transit budgets will still likely increase no matter which party is in charge.

[monsoon]

Its very important the State continue its support of rail transit since it is paying for 25% or more of CLT's system. I never really cared much for Jim Hunt or Easley, but both have been pretty good supporters of rail based transit in the state.

[dubone]

i agree.

heaven help the cities of north carolina if mr. ballentine manages to get elected, as he is anti-transit.

if funding becomes very difficult on lines like the N line, and CATS decides they need to fit the line within the Small Starts program, it is conceivable that the local tax and the state could be requested to pay for a third each (that is 75m vs 57m each for the state and local... and only 75m for the feds vs 115m). With the political power of the north meck towns, i don't perceive the extra 18m would be hard to pull from the state in that type of situation.

[monsoon]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the funding on that line. It could go a lot of different ways. I really wish they had ponied up the $80M to get a starter line going by 2003 as originally suggested. They could now be building from that base.

[dubone]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the funding on that line. It could go a lot of different ways. I really wish they had ponied up the $80M to get a starter line going by 2003 as originally suggested. They could now be building from that base.

yeah, and perhaps they will do that anyway if these federal standards turn out to be truly prohibitive.

I agree with what you have written in other threads that the trolley really helped prove the S line to the feds. i wonder if the trolley or the S LRT's success (if that turns out to be the case) will be relevant to the N line, as it is a different market. I'd like to think we'd get credit for our successes, but the feds might not think so.

[Unifour]

I'm not sure whether mass transit could be considered successful in the USA at all. According to the statistics, none of the systems in this nation are paying for themselves. It takes massive government support to sustain them. Fewer than 5% of Americans use mass transit, and the bulk of those are in one system: New York. And, also a surprise to me, using transit doesn't save that much money compared to driving for most users. If Americans embraced transit more, all of these issues would vanish. 24 hour transit would exist in most cities, and even small cities could build a system. The sad truth is that most Americans don't like mass transit, PARTICULARLY in the south. They don't feel safe and it brings people too close to thier personal space, is my guess why. Perhaps someday, as the US population continues to grow rapidly, people will be more open and it will be successful all over the nation. I hope Charlotteans ride thier system.

[dubone]

those issues that you describe are related directly to city planning and development patterns in almost all cities in the US except a handful. the low density/suburban pattern gives an extreme cost advantage to cars over transit. The problem comes, however, when sprawl creates serious bottlenecks in getting to employment centers. At that point, cities have no choice but to look to transit options, as the road expansion starts to be obscenely expensive, and wipes out existing development.

Luckily, there seems to be a shift in where people want to live. Those patterns could significantly help transit all across the county, as well as downtowns.

We are experiencing all three in charlotte (TOD, downtown living, and exurban sprawl).

[monsoon]

I'm not sure whether mass transit could be considered successful in the USA at all. According to the statistics, none of the systems in this nation are paying for themselves. It takes massive government support to sustain them. Fewer than 5% of Americans use mass transit, and the bulk of those are in one system: New York. And, also a surprise to me, using transit doesn't save that much money compared to driving for most users. If Americans embraced transit more, all of these issues would vanish. 24 hour transit would exist in most cities, and even small cities could build a system. The sad truth is that most Americans don't like mass transit, PARTICULARLY in the south. They don't feel safe and it brings people too close to thier personal space, is my guess why. Perhaps someday, as the US population continues to grow rapidly, people will be more open and it will be successful all over the nation. I hope Charlotteans ride thier system.

I am always surprised when people indicate that transit is a bad idea because it takes massive government money and fewer than 5% of of the people use it. Every single highway in the USA took massive government support to build and maintain, and none of them support themselves other than possibly some of the odd toll roads. So that reason is moot. Transportation infrastructure, regardless of being a road, train, or plane, takes government involvement.

Fewer than 5% use transit, because until recently, we have spent almost 65 years removing transit in lieu of the automobile and building places that can only be reached by an automobile. That does not mean we shouldn't look at reversing the trend. Almost every other modern country in the world, builds transit because it is good for the people, the environment, and limits sprawl. 60% of the space in today's cities is wasted on the automobile.

Finally, the automobile is the most espensive way for one to travel. Considering gasoline, maitenance, the capital cost of the car, insurance, finance charges, etc, the cost to drive a car these days is between 32 and 57 cents/mile. There is no train system in the USA that charges anywhere close to this to ride on average.

[hinsp0]

I am always surprised when people indicate that transit is a bad idea because it takes massive government money and fewer than 5% of of the people use it. Every single highway in the USA took massive government support to build and maintain, and none of them support themselves other than possibly some of the odd toll roads. So that reason is moot. Transportation infrastructure, regardless of being a road, train, or plane, takes government involvement.

Fewer than 5% use transit, because until recently, we have spent almost 65 years removing transit in lieu of the automobile and building places that can only be reached by an automobile. That does not mean we shouldn't look at reversing the trend. Almost every other modern country in the world, builds transit because it is good for the people, the environment, and limits sprawl. 60% of the space in today's cities is wasted on the automobile.

Finally, the automobile is the most espensive way for one to travel. Considering gasoline, maitenance, the capital cost of the car, insurance, finance charges, etc, the cost to drive a car these days is between 32 and 57 cents/mile. There is no train system in the USA that charges anywhere close to this to ride on average.

Well said.

Furthermore, no type of transit infrastructure will completely pay for itself in a direct manner and I do not think that it is realistic to believe that it ever will. Rather, transit construction (be it road, rail, air, or sea) is designed to spur development (in Charlotte's case, high-density residential) and facilitate the growth of commerce and industry. Development with increasing density means an increasing tax base, and that increasing tax base helps (indirectly) to subsidize the remaining costs of a transit system.

A city that is afraid to invest in transit is a city that will not compete in the long-run.

[dubone]

i'm for fare-free transit, why make any revenues off of the people that are a) costing the govt in welfare

b) saving the government millions in other transportation improvements

c) saving the world from imported terrorist-funding oil and gas

I'm glad, though, that the light rail will be on an honor system, as a few times random people can ride free, but most people will simply pay the fare.

[MZT]

If the system is successful, most people nearby will use it so often they'll just get a monthly pass anyway.

I'm reasonably hopeful the system is going to work. In Los Angeles, they built rail lines through existing city corridors and nothing seemed to happen. But we can get a sense already in south end, that redevelopment and density is spreading down towards Scaleybark road. The rail line will add impetus to an existing trend.

[reverbandwhiskey]

" And, also a surprise to me, using transit doesn't save that much money compared to driving for most users."

PLease explain to me how a 40$ unlimited pass is more expensive than paying a car payment, insurance, gas, upkeep, and parking for an automobile.

[krazeeboi]

^Don't forget about taxes, too.

[TheseGoTo11]

I'm not sure whether mass transit could be considered successful in the USA at all. According to the statistics, none of the systems in this nation are paying for themselves. It takes massive government support to sustain them. Fewer than 5% of Americans use mass transit, and the bulk of those are in one system: New York. And, also a surprise to me, using transit doesn't save that much money compared to driving for most users. If Americans embraced transit more, all of these issues would vanish. 24 hour transit would exist in most cities, and even small cities could build a system. The sad truth is that most Americans don't like mass transit, PARTICULARLY in the south.

The heavily used London Underground and Paris Metro also require huge subsidies.

[hinsp0]

The heavily used London Underground and Paris Metro also require huge subsidies.

Everything transit-related uses subsidies - London Underground, Paris Metro, New York Subway, Charlotte LRT, I-85, I-77, I-485...

I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows of a non-privately funded/administered transit project that is not sustained through subsidies.

I know that in Tokyo, for example, much of the rail-transit system is run by private entities. Does anyone know if this is even profitable or if it breaks even?

[unccmyway]

If they add a line through UNCC, like they've been recently talking about, all 22,000 students that go here will be using it. That would be such a nice addition for the university.

[TowerRooster]

If they add a line through UNCC, like they've been recently talking about, all 22,000 students that go here will be using it. That would be such a nice addition for the university.

I definitely think lots of the students would use it. I know I would. I can easily see it being a HUGE issue to get it to the heart of campus, though, it'd have to go through the ravine that is the athletic fields area. I've actually always thought that along N. Tryon would be a great place for it to run as it went by the UNCC, though. That might would be a long walk for the students, but who knows, maybe the University could start a full-time shuttle that rounded the campus every 30 minutes (or whatever the rail frequency was) to transport students to and from the station.

Besides, just northeast of UNCC (along Tryon) is lots and lots of undeveloped land going all the way to the speedway just waiting for someone to make it transit-friendly. I know it may not be all that likely that the line will go that far, but it seems to me that if they're going to bring it all the way to UNCC, they might as well. On the other hand, I guess, a lot of that land is likely to be developed nice and suburban-like between now and 2020.

[unccmyway]

they are gonna have to have a shuttle to go out to the new engineering building and the other science building up on tryon. That is a LONG walk from the center of campus.

[ilektronik]

153 years later and we are still talking about rail in Charlotte

[dubone]

funny... and the right of way collected for that rail line is the same one that the light rail is using, i believe.

[RiverwoodCLT]

South of Tyvola Rd.

[dubone]

CATS has published a new Fall 2005 newsletter for the S line to:

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...Transitions.htm

and for the N line:

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...ransitions+.htm

[monsoon]

Both are an interesting read.

For the South LRT:

Interesting the federal part is 47% instead of 50%. I assume that was due to the unexpected cost increases that were absorbed locally. Its unfortunate they had to shorten the platforms but maybe that isn't a problem as I don't think they can increase the length of the trainsets anyway if needed. (by adding another car) The other cuts, loss of artwork and trolley barn, really are not that important. I wish there was more information on the trainsets but I guess that will come with time. Sounds as if they are making good progress.

For the North CR:

The big news here is the schedule. 2 years for a federal decision on funding. Earliest it could run would be 2009. Looks as if they are using the San Diego Coaster CR (42 miles) as their model to work from. Also I've noticed a depiction of what the trainsets will look like. Top speed will be 79 mph which is considerable. Looks like a locomotive pulling either single or double floor carriages.