South Light Rail Transit

[dubone]

What is funny is that at almost every transit meeting I ever go to, someone stands up and tells them they should either light rail to the Gateway Station or turn the commuter trains underground and connect to CTC.

The CATS people always just look baffled say "too expensive" and move on.

I actually don't mind minimal stations for light rail, even uptown. It is just that I thought we were already getting minimal stations, with the only embellishments being a brick facade and a shelter that looks like a carport in a trailer park.

But it seems that they keep cutting and cutting. Next we'll have used crates for seating .

[Seabreeze]

Does anyone have a rendering of the proposed brdge over 277?

[dubone]

Does anyone have a rendering of the proposed brdge over 277?

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+Stations.htm

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I don't like this one bit. No corners should be cut on our first line. If we are going to spend several hundred million dollars, it must be done right.

[Seabreeze]

i just saw the station at Trade... it is a shame that is being trimmed down, it would have fit nicely with all the stuff going up there...

[monsoon]

I actually don't mind minimal stations for light rail, even uptown. It is just that I thought we were already getting minimal stations, with the only embellishments being a brick facade and a shelter that looks like a carport in a trailer park.

It's a missed opportunity to offer something more than just a place to get on a train. Transit stations can be a destination in themselves offering retail, food, etc. I would have hoped the LRT would have provided a stop for something like this. Maybe the Gateway Station will be more successful.

[A2]

It's a missed opportunity to offer something more than just a place to get on a train. Transit stations can be a destination in themselves offering retail, food, etc. I would have hoped the LRT would have provided a stop for something like this. Maybe the Gateway Station will be more successful.

let's hope so metro.

A2

[OE-305]

I don't remember seeing any fancy "signature" light rail stations in downtown Denver, Salt Lake, or San Jose... I either simply didn't notice or didn't care. I rode the train to get somewhere, not gawk at the aesthetics. My point is that I think we'll be okay without a grandiose station that may do little to enhance the line's functionality.

[monsoon]

I don't remember seeing any fancy "signature" light rail stations in downtown Denver, Salt Lake, or San Jose... I either simply didn't notice or didn't care. I rode the train to get somewhere, not gawk at the aesthetics. My point is that I think we'll be okay without a grandiose station that may do little to enhance the line's functionality.

I don't think we should repeat their mistakes. I recommend a trip to Union Station in DC.

[orulz]

I don't think we should repeat their mistakes. I recommend a trip to Union Station in DC.

Something like Union Station for a light rail stop? Hardly. While a mere concrete slab of a platform is certainly too spartan, getting caught up in the architecture and beauty of the station to the point where it breaks the budget is a huge mistake. That would become a lightning rod for criticism.

A utilitarian transportation facility can be a work of art in its own right. Functional, efficient, clean. No shame in that. Grand artwork and sweeping, "inspiring" architecture can add to visual clutter and tends to make facilities look dated much faster (see example: MARTA).

I don't believe that retail or any other "destination" was planned for the Trade Street LRT station in the first place. I think the idea was to build the station, and let the area become a destination by itself. Something a bit fancier (though still not on the order of Union Station) is definitely on order for the Multimodal (aka Gateway) Station but from what I've read, that has not been canceled.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

How integrated is this station supposed to be with everything around it? EpiCentre, Arena, Transit Station?

EpiCentre and the Arena will probably serve to make this stop the busiest one.

I like the platform they show as an example here.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+Stations.htm

[dubone]

How integrated is this station supposed to be with everything around it? EpiCentre, Arena, Transit Station?

EpiCentre and the Arena will probably serve to make this stop the busiest one.

I like the platform they show as an example here.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+Stations.htm

There isn't any option for a Union Station on the S LRT line. However, there are the CTC/Bus Depot, the Arena, and the EpiCentre are highly integrated with the Trade Street Station. All three of which provide retail, restaurants, public plazas, outdoor seating, and architectural uniqueness (that last one is a stretch, but you get the idea).

Charlotte's "Union Station" is "Gateway Station". It is the station for intercity passenger rail, regional commuter rail, intercity bus, regional express bus, and innercity streetcar service. It is a shame that light rail could not plug into that station, but it is a reality of funding, and the old right of way.

CATS does own the whole block east of the Trade St LRT Station, where the CTC/Bus Depot is. It is almost certain that eventually it will be outgrown, and upgrades will be necessary. At that point, I'm sure more upgrades will be made to the LRT station, and it might become a more complex station, rather than just a covered bus depot. The block just south of CTC is owned by NCRR and Norfolk-Southern, so that could potentially become part of a massive future station/depot.

I don't think they are making any crucial errors, though, for building stations uptown that are just rain covers, seating, and some art, rather than huge buildings like Union Station. It is disappointing from a city pride perspective, but I think it will not effect the success of the line once it is running.

[lupitachica]

I don't think they are making any crucial errors, though, for building stations uptown that are just rain covers, seating, and some art, rather than huge buildings like Union Station. It is disappointing from a city pride perspective, but I think it will not effect the success of the line once it is running.

From what I've read I agree. Perhaps effective well functioning stations alone will be enough to boost city pride I just want to be able to get around quickly and efficiently.

[MZT]

The Rhino Times is reporting that the city is trying to juggle funds around, and move some costs into the South Corridor Infrastructure project, in an attempt to preserve the pedestrian bridge.

[orulz]

CATS does own the whole block east of the Trade St LRT Station, where the CTC/Bus Depot is. It is almost certain that eventually it will be outgrown, and upgrades will be necessary. At that point, I'm sure more upgrades will be made to the LRT station, and it might become a more complex station, rather than just a covered bus depot.

Hm. For one idea of the sort of mixed-use that could eventually happen, the bus center in Hiroshima, Japan is on the third floor of a large downtown department store. That'd be neat, wouldn't it?

The block just south of CTC is owned by NCRR and Norfolk-Southern, so that could potentially become part of a massive future station/depot.

That's an interesting piece of information. Which is it, NCRR or Norfolk Southern? That makes a big difference. I suspect it's Norfolk Southern, but I could be wrong. Is this where Charlotte's main depot used to be?

[atlrvr]

Both of them own different pieces of that block.

[skylinedrive]

Your calculation is off. The 2 car train thas a total capacity of 236, not 2x236.

That means the capacity is about 1900/hour.

dubone was right. Each car holds 236 people. Each car is 96 ft long. CATS made each stop 200 ft long to acommidate 2 cars, which can hold a total of 472. Originally CATS wanted to make the platforms 300 ft long, to accomidate 3 cars, but that was downgraded in earlier budget cuts. I confirmed this with my neighbor who is part of the South LRT Project Team.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+Vehicles.htm

[skylinedrive]

Anyway, I mostly just want everything that we expected to get throughout the year. It is quite sad that the Uptown portion was designed and bidded on last, so they end up having severe cuts due to the rapid inflation.

Just to be clear, the most recent budget cuts/delay were due to the station finishes contract for the entire line which includes construction of stations, platforms, canopies, elevators, bus passenger facilities, pavement, lighting and security. Only one company bid on it. All the other construction companies are tied up in Katrina/Rita contracts or other local developments. This affects the entire line, its not limited to uptown stations:

- Elimination of a more elaborate station structure at the Trade Street/Arena station

- Elimination of pavers from all areas except station platforms

- Elimination of various architectural features

- Change some of the construction methods, materials and allowances for landscaping signage, and lighting

- Postponement of various pedestrian walkway features paralleling the light rail line

- Providing more time to construct and complete the work under the contract resulting in a four month delay in completion of the project.

[dubone]

dubone was right. Each car holds 236 people. Each car is 96 ft long. CATS made each stop 200 ft long to acommidate 2 cars, which can hold a total of 472. Originally CATS wanted to make the platforms 300 ft long, to accomidate 3 cars, but that was downgraded in earlier budget cuts. I confirmed this with my neighbor who is part of the South LRT Project Team.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+Vehicles.htm

Thank you for researching that. I tried to look it up on Siemen's site and in the old documents on CATS's website, but all the wording on max capacity was ambiguous and could be interpretted both ways.

M.m's underlying point does remain pretty much intact. The maximum capacity in a given moment is still quite small, especially compared to rushhour car traffic, arena capacity, etc.. Light rail doesn't work as well during swells of demand at a single moment, but, rather, during a more even distribution of demand.

CATS is buying 16 cars, so at any given moment, only 3776 can be inside the cars at any given moment, and it takes an hour for each car to make a round trip. So the maximum capacity for any station, like the Arena station, is 3776 per hour, even if the capacity of the system as a whole is increase by short trip riders.

If peak period ridership proves to bump up against maximum capacity on a regular basis, I wouldn't be surprised to see CATS call in options for additional trains after a few years.

[monsoon]

dubone was right. Each car holds 236 people. Each car is 96 ft long. CATS made each stop 200 ft long to acommidate 2 cars, which can hold a total of 472. Originally CATS wanted to make the platforms 300 ft long, to accomidate 3 cars, but that was downgraded in earlier budget cuts. I confirmed this with my neighbor who is part of the South LRT Project Team.

Go check the Siemens site for the Avanto, S70. You will find the 2 car train has a max capacity of 236 or so people depending upon configuration for the handicapped and room for bikes. As mentioned above the CATS site is ambigiuous.

http://www.transportation.siemens.com/ts/e.../02_01_2004.htm

[skylinedrive]

Let me see if I can clear up the confusion on this subject.

The link you provided metro states that the max capacity is 200 persons per vehicle for the similar Houston S70:

http://www.transportation.siemens.com/ts/e.../02_01_2004.htm

Here is another link from Siemens that you might find helpful:

http://transportation.usa.siemens.com/News/2004/032404.html

That link states that the max capacity is 236 persons per vehicle for the Charlotte version of the S70.

Here is where I think the confusion is coming from: Each vehicle has 3 sections. I think some people are confusing the 3 articulated sections as 3 vehicles or cars...when it fact the 3 sections make up one vehicle that is 92 feet long.

CATS made their platforms 200 ft long so that they could handle 2 vehicles...which will have 6 distinct articulated sections.

236 x 2 = 472

To put that capacity into perspective, if that same amount of people were all driving Honda Accords, they would strech bumper to bumper from the Bobcats Arena downtown out Brevard and South Blvd to the McDonalds at Remount Rd.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

[monsoon]

Cats has bought 16 of these 2 car units which is known as a vehicle. Each vehicle has a max capacity of 236 people. There is an option to add a third car to each vehicle, but cats choose not to purchase this model. Of course you can stack two trains together, but here are only 16 of them.

[dubone]

I read many articles/webpages, and interpret it with sky's interpretation, and then many others and interpret it with M.m's interpretation. A little more often, I take away the same interpretation as M.m.

M.m:

- 16 2-car LRVs ~200' long

- 32 LR cars ~100 feet long

- 118 max capacity per LR car

- 236 max capacity per 2-car set LRV

Sky:

- 8 2-car set LRVs ~200'long

- 16 LR cars ~100 feet long

- 236 max capacity per LR car

- 472 max capacity per 2-car set LRV

I can't figure it out from the literature. The wording I've seen can be read both ways.

I'm not even so sure some CATS people know. Some of the team members I have talked to get confused about things like this and don't always give correct answers.

[monsoon]

This is a complete trainset. Cats bought 16 of what you see here in this photo. You can match it up against the CATS drawings. They are posted earlier in this thread. There is no way you are going to get close to 500 people in this vehicle. Even 200 is going to be a tight fit and that is only if everybody stands.

This Photo is a double trainset. This would count as two trainsets. If CATS configured the trains like this, then we would only have 8 trains operating on the tracks.

[dubone]

Now that we have visual aids, here is the reiteration of what Sky was saying: (which is my own original interpretation of CATS's description).

CATS is buying 16 of these, each of which fits 236 in the tightest of squeezes. That is the maximum capacity, so it would be with all the 68 seats taken and all the aisles completely full with people standing. Perhaps the de facto maximum capacity will be lower, though, as often people don't squeeze into the aisles like they are supposed to.

Then, CATS plans to double them up with a single driver, and run them every 7.5 minutes during rush hour and special events. When they are doubled up, they will have only 8 sets that look like this. In that case, when the doubled-up train stops at a station, a maximum of 472 people can squeeze on.

M.m, are you saying something different? Your last post almost has me thinking you are saying the same thing.