South Light Rail Transit

[monsoon]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought each "train" would only be 2-3 cars depending on the time of day (not like a dozen or more cars for bigger city subways). Seems like less opportunity to hide from the eyes of security.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is correct. It will not resemble a heavy rail system. Most likely a transit cop will be responsible for patroling several cars and will not always be on board. If crime does become a problem, as it has at the downtown transit center, then they can always remedy it as they did with the buses and add police to the trains and stations.

[mediamongrel]

A lot of different opinions on light rail!!! WOW!

This turned into a great post!

BTW, back to the pollution debate, if you go by the Automobile emissions and amount of fuel combustion, there is actually more pollution created by sports cars (i.e. Mustang, 3000 GT, Mazda RX-8) These sportscars use just as much fuel for accelerating as huge SUVs do. So I guess now we have to be mad at all sportscar owners too huh???

[SmellyCat]

A lot of different opinions on light rail!!!  WOW!

This turned into a great post!

BTW, back to the pollution debate, if you go by the Automobile emissions and amount of fuel combustion, there is actually more pollution created by sports cars (i.e. Mustang, 3000 GT, Mazda RX-8)  These sportscars use just as much fuel for accelerating as huge SUVs do.  So I guess now we have to be mad at all sportscar owners too huh???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, those are the very reasons why muscle cars like the GTO and Shelby Mustang were all but banished in the early 1970s, due to new air and fuel- efficiency regulations, backlash from environmentalists and outright scorn from do-gooding Americans. Then we had an awful decade of VW Rabbits and 55 MPH speed limits.

Now, ironically thanks to - who else - the baby boomers and their quickly spent greenbacks, those cars are making a big comeback, as they loudly drive by, flipping off those very environmentalists they sided with as teenagers! Gotta love 'em.

[mediamongrel]

Well, those are the very reasons why muscle cars like the GTO and Shelby Mustang were all but banished in the early 1970s, due to new air and fuel- efficiency regulations, backlash from environmentalists and outright scorn from do-gooding Americans.  Then we had an awful decade of VW Rabbits and 55 MPH speed limits.

Now, ironically thanks to - who else - the baby boomers and their quickly spent greenbacks, those cars are making a big comeback, as they loudly drive by, flipping off those very environmentalists they sided with as teenagers!  Gotta love 'em.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good points it's funny how when they got older they want all those type of cars. personally I like smaller vehicles, but then again I am defintiely in the minority on that one.

[dubone]

the goal of transit (rail, bus or rickshaw) is that it provides an alternative for a percentage of commuters (not all or even a majority) to take cars off of roadway corridors that are far over capacity.

While SUVs are just one part of the stereotype of suburban excess, it seems to me that a mini cooper or hybrid is just as inefficient as an escalade when it comes to the capital spending on infrastructure. They both are going 5mph on a billion dollar freeway with ten feet of clearance on either side. Cars and freeways are engineered and constructed for the idea of going fast and far.

Pollution and vehicle size are definitely parts of the energy/environment debate, but those are externalities in the business of transportation infrastructure. It all comes down to moving the most people from home to work in the most efficient way. Freeways are expensive, but have extremely high capacity because there are no signals and everyone can quickly pass through. But when they exceed their capacity, the whole system breaks down... and everyone stops. At that point there is no real benefit being gained from the wide lanes, shoulders, guard rails, bridges to avoid lights, and 2 foot thick concrete. So if you are trying to figure out how to spend your infrastructure money in a county that has reached a critical mass of freeway congestion, you begin to look at other options than just adding a freeway lane which will be over capacity the day it opens. Instead you look to create infrastructure that can be expanded more quickly as growth continues. Transit.

[monsoon]

Well, those are the very reasons why muscle cars like the GTO and Shelby Mustang were all but banished in the early 1970s, due to new air and fuel- efficiency regulations, backlash from environmentalists and outright scorn from do-gooding Americans.  Then we had an awful decade of VW Rabbits and 55 MPH speed limits.

Now, ironically thanks to - who else - the baby boomers and their quickly spent greenbacks, those cars are making a big comeback, as they loudly drive by, flipping off those very environmentalists they sided with as teenagers!  Gotta love 'em.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only in the Beach Blanket Bingo Movies. LOL

Those cars were far too expensive for teenagers to own in those days and parents of those times would never consider giving their kid a car like that. In fact most babyboomer teenagers did not have automobiles as there was not enough money availbable. They walked and took public transportation. I know I did. And I don't know anyone with cars like that though I am sure a few exist.

Its not good to generalize however I will also make an observation that isn't based in movies...

If you are looking for wasteful driving I would look at today's young families who have 2 large cars plus a vehicle for every kid over the age of 15. And at least one of them has a dvd, playstations, and phones in it so they can pacify the younger children they can not cope with. Kinda like a mobile family room. If you think the baby boomers are wasteful, god knows how this bunch is going to turn out when they hit mid age.

[orulz]

god knows how this bunch is going to turn out when they hit mid age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hopefully they'll rebel against the excesses of their parents and live more conservation-minded lives. The multiple credit card, all maxed out plus 50 year mortage lifestyle of present day America can only last so long before there's serious reprecussions.

Half the families with three car garage McMansions and four or five automobiles can't really afford their lifestyle. Something's going to break, sometime... probably when real estate in the US follows along with the rest of the world and starts dropping...

[mediamongrel]

Mass transit is a GREAT idea, IF it is done in ADVANCE!!! Cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Boston, New York, etc. etc. all thought of these congestion problems long before there city became too much to handle, whereas Charlotte tries to correct the problem AFTER 1.5 million people flock to the area. Also, with Charlotte being a relatively small city as far as square mileage when compared with the above mentioned ones...it would seem only natural to have big problems when trying to create mass transit after the problem has begun. The light rail may work, but for things like subways and elevated trains which are far more efficient, there is just not enough free space in Charlotte. Light rail may work on the one direction they have set up, but then again, a lot of people live in Matthews and Ballantyne and I doubt there will be a light rail running parallel to Providence Rd. Oh well, at least those in Pineville can get to work easier...

[Sabaidee]

Mass transit is a GREAT idea, IF it is done in ADVANCE!!!  Cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Boston, New York, etc...  Also, with Charlotte being a relatively small city as far as square mileage when compared with the above mentioned ones...The light rail may work, but for things like subways and elevated trains which are far more efficient, there is just not enough free space in Charlotte.  Light rail may work on the one direction they have set up, but then again, a lot of people live in Matthews and Ballantyne and I doubt there will be a light rail running parallel to Providence Rd.  Oh well, at least those in Pineville can get to work easier...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are thinking in advance, our road system cannot carry the the extra traffic for the next 10 years (I-77 South.) Charlotte is not small in terms of square miles, we are around 260 square miles. 260 square miles is almost the same level as Chicago, Boston and St. Louis are much smaller than Charlotte in square miles. The different between Charlotte and those above mentioned cities is that we lack their density. Only Chicago and NYC have the density for heavy rail. Free space? Charlotte has plenty, but we can't afford to build transit right of way out of stratch, it's too expensive and will have to face many hurdles by the government.

[mediamongrel]

Someone please tell me where there is free space in Charlotte for heavy rail (or more light rail for that matter) ????? Guess this goes back to the Supreme Court ruling that says the government can take your land. All those huge old houses along Providence Road will be gone according to the last post, because the government will take the land to build light rail. Again, tell me where is the free space to run light rail from; Hwy 51 up to Elizabeth Ave, Ballantyne to Park Rd., University to Tryon St. Guess the government will just take peoples houses and clear the land???

[Miesian Corners]

Media, better go back to history class. London, New York, Chicago, Paris...all were traffic nightmares (yes there was a such thing as traffic before the combustion engine) which is the very reason the subway came into existence. London's first subway line opened in 1863. The city was already at 2.5 million residents. Still say they were "thinking ahead"? The Underground came into existence because of grid-lock.

Second point, media.. Charlotte is based on a radial street system, uptown being the center. Every major thouroughfare (Independence/Monore, South Blvd, Wilkinson Blvd, I-77/NC-115, and North Tryon all have rail corridors running parallel (transit-wise, most cities would kill for this). That's where heavy and light rail will run. Other corridors will get street cars (ever heard of San Francisco, Munich, Berlin, Copenhagen, Houston, The Hague, New Orleans...all have street cars) where automobile and transit share the same right of way. Elizabeth Avenune HAD streetcars unitl the 1940s. The rail lines are still under the asphalt. Elizabeth was a street-car suburb. Interestingly, when N Tryon was dug up over the winter (in front of First Methodist) for rebuilding, the old Tryon street car tracks were still there!

So no worries, mongrel. The lines already exist for heavy/LRT and people all over the globe share the road with street cars (hence the name).

[ElricSeven]

With busses there are drivers that are directly in front of the passengers in the same cabin and able to view and report any unlawful acts immediately.

[dubone]

charlotte isn't building heavy rail, so it doesn't matter if we don't have space (arguably, there is also no space for widening providence or 77 or 485, but that society must make a decision as to whether the wider roadways are more valuable than the housing, commercial buildings or farmland it must absorb).

Light rail on an old freight corridor is a very good compromise. It is much less expensive than heavy rail, has much less intense stations and engineering needs, and is much more flexible/scalable (as early in the life cycle, there might be just a single car at a given timeslot, but eventually with growth they can be joined together).

I'm not clear how we got onto providence anyway. The idea is not to run mass transit, necessarily, down the middle of a crowded thoroughfare, but rather a parallel corridor. The houses will stay put on providence, while transit is run on old rail lines like along south blvd, and in the case of SE charlotte, down independence.

[Neo]

I lived in Chicago and took the subway to and from work every day. I also took it when I went anywhere in the city as I did not have a car, I also took the bus some. I never once saw crime or experienced crime on the entire system.

[carolina_fan]

If you are looking for wasteful driving I would look at today's young families who have 2 large cars plus a vehicle for every kid over the age of 15.  And at least one of them has a dvd, playstations, and phones  in it so they can pacify the younger children they can not cope with.  Kinda like a mobile family room.  If you think the baby boomers are wasteful, god knows how this bunch is going to turn out when they hit mid age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Young families today have to have bigger cars. Carseats take up a lot of room! Decades ago, kids were just piled into the back without even using seat belts. I agree that 2 large cars may be excessive. Baby boomer teens had there own cars just like today, though.

[SmellyCat]

Mass transit is a GREAT idea, IF it is done in ADVANCE!!!  Cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Boston, New York, etc. etc. all thought of these congestion problems long before there city became too much to handle, whereas Charlotte tries to correct the problem AFTER 1.5 million people flock to the area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NYC had a population of over 3.4 million in 1900 when the initial subway line went into operation. Chicago's was 1.1 million in 1890 when the "El" started. And those cities were much denser, making it all the more challenging for designing their transportation grids.

[mediamongrel]

Media, better go back to history class.

[SmellyCat]

If you think the baby boomers are wasteful, god knows how this bunch is going to turn out when they hit mid age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, this scares me as well. As a typically cynical Gen-X'er, I certainly don't expect the Echo Boomer generation, a generation of kids who cannot function independently without their mommy and daddy, to take care of me in my old age as much I don't expect to see a penny of social security from the gov't.

[f0xym0p]

When I lived in NYC I rode alone on the subway all the time and occasionally a bus and I never experienced or witnessed any crime. The worst thing that happened were the people coming into the cars at every stop and performing for money. Let's hope that never happens in Charlotte!

[Miesian Corners]

Mass transit is a GREAT idea, IF it is done in ADVANCE!!!  Cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Boston, New York, etc. etc. all thought of these congestion problems long before there city became too much to handle, whereas Charlotte tries to correct the problem AFTER 1.5 million people flock to the area.  Also, with Charlotte being a relatively small city as far as square mileage when compared with the above mentioned ones...it would seem only natural to have big problems when trying to create mass transit after the problem has begun.  The light rail may work, but for things like subways and elevated trains which are far more efficient, there is just not enough free space in Charlotte.  Light rail may work on the one direction they have set up, but then again, a lot of people live in Matthews and Ballantyne and I doubt there will be a light rail running parallel to Providence Rd.  Oh well, at least those in Pineville can get to work easier...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was not trying to equate Charlotte to the status of the forementoned cities. I was responding to your statement that transit in those cities was done "in advance".

[atlrvr]

London, New York, Chicago, Paris?

I love when people still try to make Charlotte "world class" 

We aren't even close to Atlanta!  Their roads are almost perfect for the volume and flow they have, while ours continue to get worse. 

Just to reply to the other person who posted about Chicago; I used to drive from the South Chicago suburbs (i.e. Naperville) into the city in 45 minutes when I lived there.  How come it takes over an hour to get from South Blvd. to Mint Hill (~ 15 miles) when using 485?  Anyone see a problem?

Well, enough posting on this forum...35 pages and still no one agress with anyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

????? How did MC make Charlotte sound world class? I think he was simply pointing out that these cities saw transit solutions as a fix to traffic, once they were already large cities......a city doesn't need to be "world class" to deserve transit as a viable alternative to congestion. Also, to assume that these cities have "perfect" traffic capacity on their roads is very niave, but imagine how much worse they would be without transit.

By the way, I think most everyone here agrees with everyone else, save 1 or 2 posters who think they can pave their way to a better tomorrow.

[dubone]

Charlotte will have long term problems with congestion because:

- there is no city-wide grid system

- the roadway network is chronically underfunded and planning vastly lags demand

- growth patterns favor suburban growth in previously rural areas

solutions:

- ban neighbor designs that include culdesac/collector streets leading to only one thoroughfare

- fight for population-/congestion-based funding formula for roads in General Assembly

- build transit system

- create infrastructure (water, sewer, gridded street capacity) for higher density growth in transit-supportive areas (uptown and along train stations)

What else should be done beyond what the local leaders are doing?

[Miesian Corners]

Mediamongrel...hmmmm. A columnist with the initials "T.S." from Creative Loafing would fit that screen name. She's in the media, rails (pun intended) against transit and urban planning, and well, the mongrel part you can figure out yourselves. Could they be be one in the same?

[cinco]

London, New York, Chicago, Paris?

I love when people still try to make Charlotte "world class" 

We aren't even close to Atlanta!  Their roads are almost perfect for the volume and flow they have, while ours continue to get worse. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

media, i am lost in your posting. do you think charlotte should have LTR or not? i think that you do. i agree that charlotte, as almost all major cities, has put it's LTR into motion a little late. better late than never. as for crime - all you have to do is watch the local news to see that crime already effects all areas in charlotte. i have a hunch when someone is car-jacked @ southpark - the perpetrator doesn't live in foxcroft. my point is that crime will continue and will grow as does the city. however, that should never stop a city from providing transportation for those who choose (for whatever reason) to use it. more importantly for those who have to use it.

VIVE LTR!

[cinco]

Mediamongrel...hmmmm.  A columnist with the initials "T.S." from Creative Loafing would fit that screen name.  She's in the media, rails (pun intended) against transit and urban planning, and well, the mongrel part you can figure out yourselves.  Could they be be one in the same?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

classic.