The Mall at Green Hills

[101_ce]

I know what you mean about CBL. My mall in Asheville (Asheville Mall, owned by CBL) has very few new good stores. It does have Abercrombie & Fitch, Hollister, Victoria's Secret, Banana Republic & More, but a city the size of Asheville should have these. There is also a new shopping center near the mall with J. Crew, Chico's, Coldwater Creek, Williams-Sonama & Aveda. If it was owned by Simon, Asheville Mall would already have these and would also be getting Ann Taylor, Apple & Urban Outfitters in the near future. I would like to go to Green Hills. It does not have that many high end stores and will not be getting any soon. If the economy gets better, they could add a 3rd level. It could be more like SouthPark then, but it is double the size and has Neimans. Charlotte is alot bigger also. Although, Green Hills may be just as good eventually.

Nordstrom will probably come. I doubt that Macy's & Dillard's will leave. If they had to close a store in Nashville, it would probably be Hickory Hollow (Macy's) & RiverGate or Coolsprings (Dillard's), but I doubt Dillard's will close one of those locations.

[opendrawerwhore]

I agree, though I hope it does happen, but this reminds me very much of Macy's coming to Bellevue center in the mid 90's. (which didn't come)

I agree, besides Macy's is not what they used to be. They lost a lot of their lustre and cache. Today they seem just like a big Kohl's.

[jeb1974]

I agree, besides Macy's is not what they used to be. They lost a lot of their lustre and cache. Today they seem just like a big Kohl's.

I have not been impressed with Macy's since they entered the Nashville market by taking over Hecht's. I think their merchandise is altogether too ordinary or too trendy. I really think that what used to be known as Federated Department Stores has lost its luster since they did away with the regional department store names like Rich's, Lazarus, Goldsmith's, Burdine's, Bon Marche, etc.

While I was not living in Nashville at the time it existed but know about it, I bet that many Nashville residents especially miss Castner-Knott; I was familiar with another one of Mercantile Stores nameplates, that being Gayfers.

[jdavidf]

While I was not living in Nashville at the time it existed but know about it, I bet that many Nashville residents especially miss Castner-Knott; I was familiar with another one of Mercantile Stores nameplates, that being Gayfers.

Before I read your remark, I was about to say Macy's doesn't hold a candle to Castner-Knott! Talk about service... and sales people who actually remembered you!

C-K always made me think of the way I imagined Macy's to be back when Auntie Mame (that'd be Rosalind Russell, not Lucy) worked there!

David

[ariesjow]

I know what you mean about CBL. My mall in Asheville (Asheville Mall, owned by CBL) has very few new good stores. It does have Abercrombie & Fitch, Hollister, Victoria's Secret, Banana Republic & More, but a city the size of Asheville should have these. There is also a new shopping center near the mall with J. Crew, Chico's, Coldwater Creek, Williams-Sonama & Aveda. If it was owned by Simon, Asheville Mall would already have these and would also be getting Ann Taylor, Apple & Urban Outfitters in the near future. I would like to go to Green Hills. It does not have that many high end stores and will not be getting any soon. If the economy gets better, they could add a 3rd level. It could be more like SouthPark then, but it is double the size and has Neimans. Charlotte is alot bigger also. Although, Green Hills may be just as good eventually.

Nordstrom will probably come. I doubt that Macy's & Dillard's will leave. If they had to close a store in Nashville, it would probably be Hickory Hollow (Macy's) & RiverGate or Coolsprings (Dillard's), but I doubt Dillard's will close one of those locations.

Don't look for TMAGH to be anything like SouthPark in Charlotte (which is really only a marginally larger metro than Nashville). Aside from some accurate and inaccurate perceptions of the city, Nashville lags behind its peer cities such as Indy, Charlotte and Austin in high-end retail because there really isn't anywhere for these retailers to go. There simply isn't much more room in Green Hills and CBL's Cools Springs is woefully subpar.

I'd look for GH to add Nordstrom and perhaps one more anchor and/or small wing. There isn't much space for much more in that neighborhood. If more excluse retailers enter GH then I'd think they'd be more likely to be outside the mall. Maybe another lifestyle center similar to the Hill Center can emerge elsewhere in the Nashville metro or CBL can get their ducks in a row and massively improve Cools Springs. Personally, I would love to see Simon heavily invest in the Nashville market and to see a lifestyle center like the Doman in Austin somewhere in Davidson County. This might be a good scenario if May Town Center ever comes to fruition. Other possibilities is for more retailers to go in the Gulch or downtown. But there will need to be more residents in these areas to make this likely.

[beyonce245]

Many of the upscale retailers at Southpark may begin to regret their entrance into the Charlotte Market when Wells (formerly Wachovia) and BofA beginning slashing jobs left and right.

[blburton]

Charlotte won't have a problem supporting upscale retailers given 2 pro-sports teams, NASCAR, a CVS or Walgreens on every block, and a hospital on every other.

Many of the upscale retailers at Southpark may begin to regret their entrance into the Charlotte Market when Wells (formerly Wachovia) and BofA beginning slashing jobs left and right.

Not from Nashville, but from the way it sounds, the TMAGH tenant mix may be similar to the Streets at Southpoint in Durham or Triangle Town Center in Raleigh, given the metro area's size and demographics. Both have a Nordstrom and Saks, respectively, with no other "upscale retailers" (e.g., Tiffany's, Burberry, St. John, Louis Vuitton, Juicy Couture, BCBG MaxAzria, Hermes, etc.)

[ariesjow]

^ I've never been to either of those centers you mentioned but neither appear anything like TMAGH. They both appear quite a bit larger with less upscale retail offerings. Green Hills has Tiffany's, Burberry, Louis Vuitton, BCBG, Juicy Couture, etc. It's a small mall but it's almost entirely filled with stores that, as far as the state of Tennessee is concerned, can only be found in TMAGH.

[blburton]

Thanks for clarifying. Didn't read too much farther back! Sorry!

^ I've never been to either of those centers you mentioned but neither appear anything like TMAGH. They both appear quite a bit larger with less upscale retail offerings. Green Hills has Tiffany's, Burberry, Louis Vuitton, BCBG, Juicy Couture, etc. It's a small mall but it's almost entirely filled with stores that, as far as the state of Tennessee is concerned, can only be found in TMAGH.

[101_ce]

Yeah, I know it will never be as nice as SouthPark, it is getting even getting more high end stores. What I meant was that it is very good for a city like Nashville. I can defienetly see more upscale stores coming, but very few of them.

[DavidH74]

Despite my criticism of how TMAGH looks, I think Davis Street has done a more-than exceptional job of recruiting retailers.

I agree with the comment about Simon investing in Nashville. I wrote them some time ago, and their response was that Nashville was "overmalled" (a quote)

Amen.

Lots of subpar, mundane, and mediocre. No standouts except for TMAGH. I think Cousins does very nice projects with their "Avenues" concepts, but still, what they have brought to Nashville has been very "bridge"/middle-of-the-road/boring.

We all need to run CBL out of town! I hate to wish any company bad because there are PEOPLE who work at these companies, BUT...

Cool Springs just really COULD and SHOULD be so much more.

And yes, any business journal or retail development publication you read, always notes that Nashville is short on space for prime development. Again, you hate to wish any mall/strip center/business bad because there are people behind those things, BUT...

Let's hope Southern Land and Crosland and HG Hill and Davis Street keep investing in the area and bringing exceptional projects. Let's hope Simon gains control of The Galleria somehow.

Nashville probably needs better zoning. If you enforce how a certain development must look or what functions it must serve, it would definitely keep the likes of CBL away (so to speak, since, granted, they inherited/bought/acquired their properties here). But, I think the point still is that zoning is a bit lacking. Look at a community like Mountain Brook in Birmingham, and you'll see ENFORCED zoning and how enforced zoning pays off.

[ariesjow]

Yeah, I know it will never be as nice as SouthPark, it is getting even getting more high end stores. What I meant was that it is very good for a city like Nashville. I can defienetly see more upscale stores coming, but very few of them.

Actually, Nashville's retail is pretty bad compared to its peer cities, IMO. Green Hills has massively improved the retail landscape but for most quality shopping we remain relegated to small boutiques or weekend trips. Green Hills won't be "as nice" as malls like SouthPark (which, by the way, is double the size of TMAGH) not because Nashville couldn't support the retail or because stores have no interest in this market. There simply isn't the space and, as David hinted at, it's almost Green Hills or bust for high-end retail in this metro.

[nsvlbimmerguy]

Actually, Nashville's retail is pretty bad compared to its peer cities, IMO. Green Hills has massively improved the retail landscape but for most quality shopping we remain relegated to small boutiques or weekend trips. Green Hills won't be "as nice" as malls like SouthPark (which, by the way, is double the size of TMAGH) not because Nashville couldn't support the retail or because stores have no interest in this market. There simply isn't the space and, as David hinted at, it's almost Green Hills or bust for high-end retail in this metro.

Granted it's a small chunk, but there's the 3 acres of land along Cleghorn DSLC spent last year purchasing, small compared to the 28+ acres the mall presently occupies, the old bellsouth office building, (assuming DLSC could buy any of it) not counting the theatre complex (which is another 2.5 acres), comprises another almost 4 acres, that building I bet has lost some tenants, the last time I was in it, it seemed very quiet, the restaurant closed, etc, the removal of that building plus the integration of it's parking deck (and probably loss of additional surface parking) could dramatically change the "retail landscape" for TMAGH, the question is are they willing to spend the dollars. They obviously have or at some point had a plan in mind for the parcels they already own.

While everything is crappy economy wise now, now is a good time to spend if you have the cash to do it.

[GHBoy]

It seems we are all in agreement that improvement in retail for Nashville is dependent on improvements at GH Mall. I do know that a local firm is working on a plan for the Cleghorn area that was vacated by the former Health Spa and possibly taking down the old Bell South office building. It will be upscale and high end with some features facing Cleghorn/Abbott Martin similar to the Hill Center feel as Davis Street had two options and chose the high end one, but have not heard any time table or possible stores. Also, I do not know if the economy may have an impact on timing. Nashville is similar in size to Columbus, Ohio which has an incredible life stlye center called Eaton Town Center I believe with both Nordstrom and Saks plus an impressive Westin Hotel. The odd thing is that while Columbus has much more impressive retail, the airport is more comparable to a much smaller city, think Knoxville with only slightly more traffice and no downtown viability per se, even though there is an area near downtown that is fairly active.

[101_ce]

I don't think that Nashville's malls are that bad. Green Hills will be better after it gets Nordstrom. The reason that their malls can be bad is because every one except GH & OM is owned by CBL. Green Hills simply does not have any more space left and a third level is unlikely. None of the malls will get any better until Simon comes to buy CoolSprings (unlikely). Even if Nashville's population is close to Charlotte's, Charlotte must have more people with higher incomes. Nashville is a little bit smaller.

[jice]

Is the Gulch not large enough for this potential retail? Or what about the rumored retail coming to the Rolling Mill Hill area? I realize both areas are in need of more residential.. but both are also pressing on in that respect.

I still feel like before Green Hills adds any more retail, we have GOT to figure out a better transportation plan for that area. Otherwise.. it will take people forever to get to those upscale retailers.

[nsvlbimmerguy]

I don't think that Nashville's malls are that bad. Green Hills will be better after it gets Nordstrom. The reason that their malls can be bad is because every one except GH & OM is owned by CBL. Green Hills simply does not have any more space left and a third level is unlikely. None of the malls will get any better until Simon comes to buy CoolSprings (unlikely). Even if Nashville's population is close to Charlotte's, Charlotte must have more people with higher incomes. Nashville is a little bit smaller.

I do think simon (or even more of a longshot, Westfield) would be an improvement to CSG, but I find it interesting the reverence paid to Simon. Simon has some major high end properties, but they have a lot more middle of the road suburban centers, they're sort of like Macys, they tailor to the market around them, which affords CSG shoppers no guarantees, case in point the Avenues mall in Jacksonville, which is very similar to CSG, it's about the same age, similar size and tenant mix, and was renovated about the same time as CSG, (interestingly they looked almost identical both before their respective reno's and still very similar after.) It's an ok mall, but it's nothing spectacular, much like CSG.

[Justiceham]

Columbus and Charlotte are very comparable cities to Nashville without the trendy West End, Gulch, or East Nashville areas. Nashville actually has several malls, but nearly all except TMAGH and CSG offer mediocre retail offerings. It seems like everytime a new "lifestyle center" opens it contains Dick's Sporting Goods or Wal-Mart. Nashville could easily swallow a large high-end retail center (i.e. North Park, Houston Galleria, etc.) but like others have said new developers must come to town other than CBL. Hopes still arise with the proposals of May Town Center(Nashville), McEwen(Franklin), or Marymont Springs(Murfreesboro) within the metro area.

[DavidH74]

I do think simon (or even more of a longshot, Westfield) would be an improvement to CSG, but I find it interesting the reverence paid to Simon. Simon has some major high end properties, but they have a lot more middle of the road suburban centers, they're sort of like Macys, they tailor to the market around them, which affords CSG shoppers no guarantees, case in point the Avenues mall in Jacksonville, which is very similar to CSG, it's about the same age, similar size and tenant mix, and was renovated about the same time as CSG, (interestingly they looked almost identical both before their respective reno's and still very similar after.) It's an ok mall, but it's nothing spectacular, much like CSG.

It's not a reverence toward Simon as much as it is a hatred toward CBL. All I am saying is look at CBL "premier properties" and look at Simon's flagship properties. Come on. Nashville is not small-market USA. Nashville deserves better for its primary "retail destination". And yes, Nashville deserves Simon.

Yes, Simon has properties that aren't flagship. Even though Jacksonville has mainstream The Avenues, they ALSO have St. John's Town Center, which is on its way to becoming a mega project, which will/does house many high-end retailers. St. John's is a SIMON property. Jacksonville is not an Atlanta -- it can not support a Lenox (Simon) AND a Phipps (Simon) and all else ATL has. If Simon can only turn one Jacksonville property into a flagship, at least they have one...at least Simon has proven their investment in Jacksonville.

As mentioned many times earlier, CBL's investments are shotty and SUBPAR. They have proven nothing. Nashville has TMAGH, but it can support only so much. Without DSLC being inventive, buying time/properties, Nashville depends on others to step it up. Yes, the Cool Springs renovation si alright. Yes, it 's better than nothing. But, AGAIN, they had the chance to really pay attention to detail and do good work and amp it up! I don't think adding a lifestyle center to it now (as planned) is going to help. As mentioned, the high-end/upscale stores are going to want to stick together. CS is NOT geared that way. It'll be more mainstream, shotty work.

I just wish ANY other company owned The Galleria. St Louis, where i'm from, while bigger than Nashville has its own problems with lagging in retail (at times). It's one of few cities with a Davis Street property -- Plaza Frontenac. Beautiful center, pretty high-end. VERY small. BUT, St Louis has "competing" St Louis Galleria (General Growth) which is not high-end, but very upscale, very well done, able to draw unique-to-St Louis retailers, usually where St Louis area flagship stores go, plans to make it more high-end, special retailers that make ti a destination...I could go on and on. My point, while lost maybe, is if Nashville doesn't have enough prime retail space in its prime retail center/zip code (JUST AS St Louis doesn't), at least St Louis has another mall/mall management company that deserves the "Galleria" naming, that is deserving of being THE retail destination. It resides in St Louis' primary business district (Clayton area). Cool Springs is Nashville's primary business district. The similarities are uncanny. BUT...St Louis has General Growth on its side and a SPECIAL Galleria. It has a BEAUTIFUL Mark Shale dept store. Nordstrom is adding a second area location. DIllards is flagship. Inline stores are the biggest and best. Inline stores are unique to the market in many cases (Kenneth Cole, Lacoste) The mall, itself,is beautiful. Actually, it (along with Davis Street's Plaza Frontenac) are two area malls that are spared from CBL ownership! (All CBL properties were formerly Westfield in St Louis) Again, the similarities are uncanny.

Cool Springs Galleria...would be FINE if it weren't the primary retail destination. Right now it is only because it has to be. We deserve for it to be able to pick up overflow from what Davis Street can not accommodate at this point in time. It doesn't have to be Tiffany's high-end (Nashville can support only one, as St Louis can support only one). But, it deserves better than what it has. It deserves some standout retailers. It deserves more upscale. It deserves a touch of high-end. It deserves to look better. WE deserve it to serve as a true retail destination. It certainly does not have a special anchor like Mark Shale. It certainly doesn't have unique-to-market retailers. It certainly doesn't feel like they are making wise or true or quality investments.

I just feel like CBL fixes things enough to make their properties substainable another couple years. Other owners seem to put top dollar into investments, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY in their flagship properties to make them substainable far into the future (as unknown as that may be). An investment equals risk. An investment equals doing more than putting a band aid on something -- redoing the decor to distract from the fact that there isn't one (or hardly one) special, unique retailer in the mall. They have NOT proven they mean business in Nashville. They have NOT proven they turn the mall into a new direction. It takes more effort to retenant/reposition a mall than just to tack on a lifestyle center. Sorry. Davis Street spent a lot of time and money waiting for leases to run out on things like Champs or Claires or food court restaurants in order to infill with better/upscale/high end/unique. CBL will not do that. They just lease space and do not care what kind of inappopriate infill they backfill leases with and do not have the muscle to attract upscale/high end/unique. Sometimes, they pick up a few of those through aquisitions of other malls. But, on their own...they can't do it. Tacking on a lifestyle center at CS Galleria will just be a limp effort to sustain The Galleria another two, three, five years -- it won't be a "we're giving it our all for the long-term" investment. Too much work has to be done to the mall itself. Again, The Galleria would be perfectly fine if it were not meant to be the primary retail destination.

I don't necessarily love Simon. I don't necessarily love General Growth. I do necessarily HATE CBL. And, I do necessarily love Nashville. Jacksonville, Charlotte, Indianapolis ALL have Simon on their sides. St Louis and Louisville have General Growth on their sides. Nashville is one of few cities that has Davis Street on its side, but it operates smaller centers in the best (or near best) zip codes. But, in terms or primary retail destinations...WE DESERVE IT!

I HATE CBL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! H-A-T-E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!!!

[opendrawerwhore]

I do think simon (or even more of a longshot, Westfield) would be an improvement to CSG, but I find it interesting the reverence paid to Simon. Simon has some major high end properties, but they have a lot more middle of the road suburban centers, they're sort of like Macys, they tailor to the market around them, which affords CSG shoppers no guarantees, case in point the Avenues mall in Jacksonville, which is very similar to CSG, it's about the same age, similar size and tenant mix, and was renovated about the same time as CSG, (interestingly they looked almost identical both before their respective reno's and still very similar after.) It's an ok mall, but it's nothing spectacular, much like CSG.

Yeah that is true, but look at the anchors. jax cannot even get a Macy's ( which is nothing special) they just have Belk, dillards, Sears, and JCP in all 3 of the area malls. Jax's shopping destination is St. Johns Town Center and it only has a huge Dillard's flagship as an anchor and a Target. It has lots of upscale and midscale shops in this behemoth lifestyle center, but agin nothing special. While sjtc is very similar to the Avenue in Mufreesboro, I think that whenever our economy recovers and the Avenue start phase 2, it will become a super regional shopping destination. I just see that it has so much potential. i think it will eventually have a Macy's and perhaps the Nashville areas first Nordstrom...not at Greenhills by the way.

[nsvlbimmerguy]

Yeah that is true, but look at the anchors. jax cannot even get a Macy's ( which is nothing special) they just have Belk, dillards, Sears, and JCP in all 3 of the area malls. Jax's shopping destination is St. Johns Town Center and it only has a huge Dillard's flagship as an anchor and a Target. It has lots of upscale and midscale shops in this behemoth lifestyle center, but agin nothing special. While sjtc is very similar to the Avenue in Mufreesboro, I think that whenever our economy recovers and the Avenue start phase 2, it will become a super regional shopping destination. I just see that it has so much potential. i think it will eventually have a Macy's and perhaps the Nashville areas first Nordstrom...not at Greenhills by the way.

The Avenue is certainly a nice property, but I'd be curious if it could become that big growth/tenant wise, just due the dilution of retail in the region and while Nordstrom isn't the most exclusive retailer out there, I can't see Nashville having room for more than 1 for a long time. Plus the economic demographics would certainly favor GH or CS as that's a major requirement for most upper end retailers.

CSG while it sucks, is integral to its micro-region and most people aren't going to make it a destination if they can drive 5 miles for the same stores.

I do think the Avenue will be one of the final nails in Hickory Hollow

[kayman]

I doubt it; they just don't do high-end. I mean, the Galleria and one in - I think - Birmingham are their only "Premium" malls. So, I just don't think they have the connections with good retailers. I can see something like Coldwater Creek, but no J. Crew. The clientele may have similar incomes in Franklin and Green Hills, but the shops they want are totally different. I love Green Hills, but it's much more conspicuous consumption there. Cool Springs and Franklin are so family-centric that most of what is in Green Hills would just not fly; there's not a desire - for the most part - for boutiques. DT Franklin occupies most of that niche anyway. Southern Land, on the other hand, is the bomb. They'll be the ones to bring us something good in Franklin; they just do such high quality work.

No sweat though, I enjoy the drive to Green Hills. I love Hill Place, there's good food in Green Hills, the movie theatre is cheaper than Carmike in Cool Springs ($9.75 for a movie is insane), and the country in between is incredible.

There aren't any CBL properties in the Greater Birmingham area.

B'ham Galleria is General Growth.

But yeah, totally agree that CBL doesn't do high-end. And agree that Franklin and GH are two different markets, although both affluent. Also, any major name is going to want to go along with Nordies...not Penneys. I mean, if Ralph Lauren were to come to town, I don't think it would be a difficult decision as to where the boutique were to go.

Totally agree.

The name of the mall is Riverchase Galleria, and it managed and only partially owned by GGP.

[101_ce]

The reason why The Avenues is not that upscale is because Simon only 25% owns it.

[ariesjow]

It seems we are all in agreement that improvement in retail for Nashville is dependent on improvements at GH Mall. I do know that a local firm is working on a plan for the Cleghorn area that was vacated by the former Health Spa and possibly taking down the old Bell South office building. It will be upscale and high end with some features facing Cleghorn/Abbott Martin similar to the Hill Center feel as Davis Street had two options and chose the high end one, but have not heard any time table or possible stores. Also, I do not know if the economy may have an impact on timing. Nashville is similar in size to Columbus, Ohio which has an incredible life stlye center called Eaton Town Center I believe with both Nordstrom and Saks plus an impressive Westin Hotel. The odd thing is that while Columbus has much more impressive retail, the airport is more comparable to a much smaller city, think Knoxville with only slightly more traffice and no downtown viability per se, even though there is an area near downtown that is fairly active.

I went to Easton Town Center about five years ago when I visited Columbus and I remember liking it. Isn't that the one that's owned by Lex Wexner (the guy who owns all the Limited brands)? I would definitely like to see a large scale, well-planned town center with some similarities to that here in Nashville.

[jeb1974]

There aren't any CBL properties in the Greater Birmingham area.

The name of the mall is Riverchase Galleria, and it managed and only partially owned by GGP.

Some years ago, Jim Wilson and Associates sold 50% of its interest in the Riverchase Galleria to General Growth.

Being an Alabama native, I made many a trip to the Riverchase Galleria ("The Galleria" to Alabama residents). However, from what I understand, it has seen better days. I believe more recently it has seen an increase in vacancies, for the most part due to department store consolidation. I was a little surprised that Nordstrom was announced for the Birmingham area right before its Nashville announcement.

The Summit in Birmingham has attracted considerable upscale specialty stores, and the redevelopment of Brookwood Village has brought some business back there as well. Century Plaza is now dead, and Eastwood Mall was demolished to make way for a Wal-Mart Supercenter.

They're hoping that the addition of Nordstrom will add more time to the Riverchase Galleria.

As for the Jacksonville retail market, I have been to both The Avenues and St. Johns Town Center when it first opened. SJTC has attracted a considerable number of upscale specialty stores and restaurants. The Avenues is a fairly decent mall with nothing special. When I was in Jacksonville I learned residents there go to Orlando to shop. Aside from not having Macy's (nothing special about it now) in Jacksonville, I think SJTC would be the place if a Nordstrom or other upscale department store are to enter the Jacksonville market. Since I was there over three years ago, SJTC has added phase two.