Retail Downtown

[Mark Miller]

This is very eye opening indeed.

Interior design consultant Kayem Dunn, formerly executive director of the Foundation for Interior Design Education Research and currently chair of the Downtown Development Authority, was blunt.

[Mark Miller]

Something else that dawns on me about this, as it relates to all of these committees and also to zoning ordinances.

The absolute best places in America (and the world) were created without all of this restriction. The places that we all love and point at as models and take vacations to, are the result of pure uninterrupted capitalism and no zoning. Since the advent of zoning we have essentially created a bunch of crap places. We have decimated our urban centers and our neighborhoods, we have destroyed our small towns and replaced all of this with a uniform, bland load of BS, often times referred to as Generica.

I know, I know, we need zoning to protect from all those evildoers who want to put factories next to houses and brothels next to schools and pig farms next to hospitals. And we need DDA's to make the downtowns viable and we need this downtown authority for what? Oh yea, to make the downtown viable again.

Maybe there are just too many restrictions, too many people nitpicking about what can and can't go in our downtown. Too many people making value judgements about what the use (what is being sold) is. And while we are sitting on our thumbs wondering if we should allow GAP or Crate and Barrel, those places are locating in the suburban lifestyle centers, because first, they are getting a grand welcoming committee in the suburbs and second, they don't know what the hell is going on downtown. And with all the other potential pitfalls with downtown retail, they sure don't need another one.

[Raildudes dad]

I have worked with a good many national chains over the years, and although many do have developed prototypes for suburban settings. Most are willing to drastically change or simple start from scratch when it comes to a downtown, dense urban setting. A good local example would be CVS. They have prototypes that they use for there suburban stores, but take a look at there store in Eastown, on the corner of Lakeside and Wealthy. You will see a building which attempts to be sensative to its urban setting, and helps to maintain a streetscape.

[Veloise]

Something else that dawns on me about this, as it relates to all of these committees and also to zoning ordinances.

The absolute best places in America (and the world) were created without all of this restriction. The places that we all love and point at as models and take vacations to, are the result of pure uninterrupted capitalism and no zoning. Since the advent of zoning we have essentially created a bunch of crap places. We have decimated our urban centers and our neighborhoods, we have destroyed our small towns and replaced all of this with a uniform, bland load of BS, often times referred to as Generica....

[ccbarnes]

I know, I know, we need zoning to protect from all those evildoers who want to put factories next to houses and brothels next to schools and pig farms next to hospitals. And we need DDA's to make the downtowns viable and we need this downtown authority for what? Oh yea, to make the downtown viable again.

Maybe there are just too many restrictions, too many people nitpicking about what can and can't go in our downtown. Too many people making value judgements about what the use (what is being sold) is. And while we are sitting on our thumbs wondering if we should allow GAP or Crate and Barrel, those places are locating in the suburban lifestyle centers, because first, they are getting a grand welcoming committee in the suburbs and second, they don't know what the hell is going on downtown. And with all the other potential pitfalls with downtown retail, they sure don't need another one.

[torgo]

Bingo. We should do everything to encourage development/growth and let the market shake everything out. Some people in these alliances, committees, and councils seem to believe that they OWN downtown and are treating it like their private SimCity...deciding what belongs where, what doesn't ,who's business survives and who's has the wrong vision. Doesn't seem like the 'marketconservatives' this area is supposed to be about.

[Mark Miller]

Well there still should standards for architecture, parking, windows, etc, because otherwise we'll get the cheapest crap imaginable. Other than that, I agree mostly.

[GR Jackson]

Although things seem stagnant right now, in time I believe things will pick up. There are many exciting projects happening around the center of it all that will bring people in. The type of people who will move downtown are normally the type of people who would rather walk a few blocks to get what they need than drive somewhere to get them. The density of people downtown needs to increase, and then there will be a greater need for all different retail. Also Grand Rapids is blessed with quite a few colleges that draw people into the area. These students are the corner stones of hip and cool neighborhoods, and if they can be convinced to live downtown, and spend their money downtown......

[torgo]

Zoning, as it is manifested today is essentially a generic code which relies heavily on regulating some things and not regulating other things. Forcing a developer to put x amount of juniper shrubs in the front yard or landscaping a parking lot. Many of the zoning codes are created from a generic document and administered from a place called Muni-code. It is no wonder everything looks strikingly and abysmally the same.

[michaelskis]

I agree, but would also say that many of the seemingly boneheaded rules are there for a reason. With your juniper example, some ordinance once was vague about landscaping, so the developer planted a dandelion in a patch of wood chips and called it landscaping. Then the municipality had to go "ok, fine, one shrub of X type every x feet long the front, and every XX feet along the side..." and many lawsuits and ZBA hearings later, we get the confusing, standardized ordinances written in lawyer-ese that we have now.

This is exactly right and perfectly stated. No one wants a generic, bland plastic shopping mall atmosphere downtown. We just want some of its retail.

[GRDadof3]

Although things seem stagnant right now, in time I believe things will pick up. There are many exciting projects happening around the center of it all that will bring people in. The type of people who will move downtown are normally the type of people who would rather walk a few blocks to get what they need than drive somewhere to get them. The density of people downtown needs to increase, and then there will be a greater need for all different retail. Also Grand Rapids is blessed with quite a few colleges that draw people into the area. These students are the corner stones of hip and cool neighborhoods, and if they can be convinced to live downtown, and spend their money downtown......

[Yankee Fan]

From what I can tell, there are quite a few college students that read and/or post to UP...

So what do you think? What would you like to see downtown? Stores, shops, etc. Since GR DAD is right and there are a lot of college students downtown already, you could truly drive this thing.

I am very interested in what you would like to see.

[snoogit]

From what I can tell, there are quite a few college students that read and/or post to UP...

So what do you think? What would you like to see downtown? Stores, shops, etc. Since GR DAD is right and there are a lot of college students downtown already, you could truly drive this thing.

I am very interested in what you would like to see.

[AlexPKeaton]

Bridge Street Pizza and the Big O' Cafe aren't enough pizza?

[twoshort]

Bridge Street Pizza and the Big O' Cafe aren't enough pizza?

[GR Jackson]

I think the big problem is, I know this has been said before, a lack of knowledge of what is going on downtown. I had no idea how much was going on downtown until I made a real effort to see what was there. There is a great deal of traffic going to the express ways, but too few people stop to enjoy and shop. I don't know how many people actually know the stores that are there. I haven't really seen much advertising on television or other media. The city of Grand Rapids hasn't had a vibrant center for very long, so people are used to going elsewhere. Until perceptions are changed, and density increases not much will happen. I remain optimistic though. Part of my optimism stems from the colleges. They are a big factor in all of the development going on.

[MisterMike]

Fellow Urban Planeteers (is that what we are?) I decided to take some action. Here is an email I sent to Kayem Dunn (DDA) and Sharon Evoy (Downtown Merchants) yesterday followed by Ms. Dunn's reply. Form your own opinions, but let's try a dialogue with them. At least Ms. Dunn seems willing to listen as well as be heard.

Dear Ms. Dunn and Ms Evoy,

I would imagine by this time you have become aware that your names and recent quotes with regard to retail in downtown Grand Rapids are being bandied about on the Urban Planet http://www.urbanplanet.org . As a business owner and twenty-plus year resident of Grand Rapids, I'm hoping that you both are willing to listen to and consider a point of view that differs from what you've expressed.

I grew up in the Chicago area and have always thought of Michigan Avenue and State & Madison as the zenith of "downtowns". Moving around the Midwest in pursuit of my career, I made stops in Green Bay, Madison, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Grand Rapids. In each and every case when the downtowns in these cities were vital and alive, there were national retail chains as a part of the downtown mix. With the exception of Green Bay (I haven't been there in 30 years) all of those cities have national retail in them now. Aren't Grand Rapids residents as worthy of downtown retail as Cincinnati, Indianapolis, or Madison? As local universities expand their facilities, the medical hill adds to the downtown employee base, and numerous downtown condo projects come on line, aren't there national merchants who want access to these people? I have traveled to Atlanta, Ann Arbor, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Dallas, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, St. Louis, and throughout suburban Chicago and every time that I've found a vital and dynamic downtown it has had national chains. That is why it perplexes me so, that two women who are helping direct Grand Rapids downtown are quoted in the Business Journal as essentially being anti-national merchandising chains? Is Grand Rapids the exception to what I've seen everywhere else?

If you are at all open to the ideas of your fellow Grand Rapidians, I would like to point to a development in Chicago that is currently being discussed in the Grand Rapids portion of the Urban Planet called the Grand Rapids Coffee House. Under the heading The Big Box Store Pyramid there are pictures of the North Avenue Collection, which is an area of Chicago on North Avenue that has a mixture of national retailers (some in new building, some in older retro-fitted buildings) and local merchants. It's a wonderful confluence of new and old, national and local that could serve as a model to any downtown. It is concept that could just as easily work in downtown Grand Rapids as it does in it's current setting.

I realize that you are both undoubtedly busy with your duties. If however you could reply, I would greatly appreciate an explanation why you feel as you do, and whether you think something like the North Avenue Collection could or could not work in Grand Rapids.

We are at a very critical but exciting time in the future of Grand Rapids. It is my sincere hope that you are open to more possibilities for this city than those that have been attributed to you by the press.

Thank-you for your time,

Her reply.

Sharon Evoy forwarded a copy of your message to me. (The email address posted on Urban Planet was incorrect.) Thanks for the information about Chicago. I, too, have spent time in downtowns all over this country and in other countries and share your perspective about downtown mix that includes national chains. Like you and many of the correspondents on Urban Planet, I would love to have more retail downtown - of every kind.

The Business Journal article you reference was not totally correct. For one thing, I'm not an interior design consultant. Second, when I was asked by the BJ reporter what I thought downtown Grand Rapids needs, my answer was "people". The article created an incorrect impression that I am somehow anti-national chains. I am not. I do, however, believe that for any retail business to be successful, they must have paying customers. To put it another way, there must be a market for the business. The challenge for downtown Grand Rapids is to develop that critical mass of people - shoppers - to support businesses.

I have worked downtown for many years - long enough to have seen many retail stores come and, sadly, go. Our local realtors continue to work hard to recruit new businesses to fill the vacant storefronts. At some point in time, attracting the kinds of stores found in Chicago may be possible but right now, there just don't seem to be enough shoppers.

Please keep generating all those ideas and presenting examples of success in other cities. Also, feel free to share my comments on Urban Planet.

Kayem Dunn

So what's everyone else's take on this. Sorry for the long entry.

[Rizzo]

Interesting response

[suydam]

The quotes from GRBJ are to re-context.... how much more explicit than "I don't want a gap downtown" can you be?

[AlexPKeaton]

Which comes first, the shoppers or the stores? Without one you won't get the other.

I think if a major new development downtown included not only ground floor retail, but a few floors of retail then I think we could get some national chains interested. It wouldn't have to be nearly as large as a mall (that would be hard to do on small city lots anyway). There just needs to be a decent concentration of stores. Attracting stores like Gap might be easier knowing that their store will be in a dedicated shopping center and not just some street that doesn't contain many other stores. Get that and I think you'll draw some people. It could snowball from there.

What I'm thinking of is pretty common in many major cities. An office tower that has an open area in the middle with a few levels of shopping. The offices are on the upper floors of course. The ground floor retailers could be accessible from both the street and inside the building. Something like this would be great on the Market and Fulton lot and the Lyon and Ottawa lot with Monroe Center in the middle.

You know, nothing makes me cringe more than when I hear about a potential performing arts center downtown. Not that it's a bad thing, but it not what our downtown most needs. We already have people downtown for events, we need them downtown for other reasons.

[tamias6]

Just some quick calculations.....

Assuming 100,000 sq. ft. of retail space is needed you would have the following footprints:

2 stories- 50,000 sq. ft.

3 stories- 33,333 sq. ft.

4 stories- 25,000 sq. ft.

5 stories- 20,000 sq. ft.

IF one were to build a 3 to 5 story iteration of a national retailer, there would many location in DT that would be very accommodating. Even if none of the existing building would work, just take a look at all those awful surface lots we could easily be rid of.

[gvsusean]

i think we need a good retail street..... my vote is for commerce

[Veloise]

The quotes from GRBJ are to re-context.... how much more explicit than "I don't want a gap downtown" can you be?

[GRDadof3]

Nice work MisterMike! Thanks for following up.

It's strange how some people think of downtown as "just another neighborhood in the city", like Creston or East Fulton or Cherry Street. It's not, it's the epicenter of a metro area of almost 800,000 people. Apparently they're not waiting for critical mass of people out at 4 Mile Rd and Walker Ave. If they are waiting for more residents to move downtown to spur retail, then the only retail they will get is retail to support downtown residents alone (a Little Caesars, another couple of haircut places, a drycleaner) How exciting!

Does the Apple store in Woodland just bank on customers who live within walking distance of the mall?

[GR Jackson]

I agree that we need to draw people to downtown, but I think that it is different than a mall. It needs to operate differently, especially because of a different layout. There isn't the parking for one, also it is a different mentality. People go to a mall for different reasons than they go downtown.