The State of Downtown Retail

[goodbye]

Well, the woes continue...

Not a retail store, but Diner on Main is gone - completely cleaned out.

Eden Limited is closed temporarily, but will reopen on the 23rd for its liquidation sale.

I've got to admit, the number of stores closing is shockingly horrifying. The vacancies are beginning to leave gaping holes in the urban spine of downtown. While I understand the passing of shops in the name of progress, I also know beyond all doubt that what has made Greenville's downtown rebirth so tremendously successful has been its unique hometown charm. Shops such as The Map Shop, Bentley's Bookshop, Earshot, Eden, Enchantment, etc., are the lifeblood of that charm, along with the many awesome restaurants and attractions.

Today I visited The Map Shop for one final time and felt a major part of my heart being torn away. When the shop's doors close at the end of the day, they will never again be opened to the public. While this is an all-too-real part of life in any downtown, their successful presence here will be forever remembered and greatly appreciated.

[g-man430]

Well, the woes continue...

Not a retail store, but Diner on Main is gone - completely cleaned out.

Eden Limited is closed temporarily, but will reopen on the 23rd for its liquidation sale.

I've got to admit, the number of stores closing is shockingly horrifying. The vacancies are beginning to leave gaping holes in the urban spine of downtown. While I understand the passing of shops in the name of progress, I also know beyond all doubt that what has made Greenville's downtown rebirth so tremendously successful has been its unique hometown charm. Shops such as The Map Shop, Bentley's Bookshop, Earshot, Eden, Enchantment, etc., are the lifeblood of that charm, along with the many awesome restaurants and attractions.

Today I visited The Map Shop for one final time and felt a major part of my heart being torn away. When the shop's doors close at the end of the day, they will never again be opened to the public. While this is an all-too-real part of life in any downtown, their successful presence here will be forever remembered and greatly appreciated.

You can blame Woodruff Rd. for that. Don't believe me, just wait until Magnolia Park Town Center opens. It will drag more and more people away from downtown and towards Woodruff Rd. Hopefully things like the Peacock Hotel and Spa will change that some though. The only two stores I have ever shopped at downtown are the Map Shop and Mast General Store. Personally I think the other stores are kind of boring and not that appealing to me. They really need to open more stores that appeal to more people like Haywood Mall does.

Edited January 11, 2007 by g-man430

[charlie swords]

well coming form the point of view of someone that lives downtown....i would like to see some national retailers open up, primarily so i don't have to drive out to the mall or woodruff rd also i'm already paying for parking and i could really use the exercise. I would definitely shop at a Borders or Barnes & Noble and an Old Navy or Gap....and i wish they would have put a Target in at McBee Station rather than a Staples but that's a whole rant unto itself....

[g-man430]

The Greenville Journal should do an article on if and how the city of Greenville is pushing for more national retailers downtown.

[GvilleSC]

The Greenville Journal should do an article on if and how the city of Greenville is pushing for more national retailers downtown.

I agree. I'd like to know some concrete facts about their efforts and what we can expect. The community IS waiting!...

[Greenville]

Several people have linked downtown's charm to local retailers, and I don't see it that way at all. Those local retailers add a unique element to downtown, but to me, the charm comes from tree-lined streets, unique architecture, friendly people, and cleanliness of the area. Again, the local retailers are needed and valued, but I don't believe we will lose any charm if some national retailers come in to give the downtown retail scene a boost.

[mallguy]

Several people have linked downtown's charm to local retailers, and I don't see it that way at all. Those local retailers add a unique element to downtown, but to me, the charm comes from tree-lined streets, unique architecture, friendly people, and cleanliness of the area. Again, the local retailers are needed and valued, but I don't believe we will lose any charm if some national retailers come in to give the downtown retail scene a boost.

I agree- and there are still PLENTY of parking lots and underutilized land with cheap, small buildings on it downtown- lots of room for new retail space to be built, so we can have both more local stores and national retailers.

[linkerjpatrick]

I agree- and there are still PLENTY of parking lots and underutilized land with cheap, small buildings on it downtown- lots of room for new retail space to be built, so we can have both more local stores and national retailers.

I saw an add in the Sunday paper a few weeks ago for a company that let's multiple business rent from a single location and would have shared administrative help. One of their locations I saw was on Coffee Street. Anyone know the name of this place. It wasn't my paper as I saw it while visiting my parents house around Christmas and something like this might be good for my business instead of a bigger dedicated building.

The loss of places like the Map Shop and Bentley's got me to wondering if such places are best suited to dedicated buildings or not. A long time ago Greenville experimented with small mall concept at the same location Mast is in now. It was called the People's Market and for all intensive purposes was an "upscale" flea market if their is such a thing. They have something similiar in the middle of Travelers Rest now where a bunch of merchants (usually crafts, small furniture and other items made or resold by local people. I almost wonder if Bentley's could have done better in a small venue where they just focused on the signed and/or rare books and did a lot more selling online via Amazon, eBay, or a dedicated web site.

The retail business of the Map Shop could be done though a "Greenville" store (i.e. selling Greenville items). Just some thoughts that go through my head during the day as I think about the future of my own business.

BTW, I took notes at the luncheon today where the city manager spoke. I'll post a synopsis later when I can make my notes more readable.

[Spartan]

The two posts above about parking and co-tenancy clauses are good.

Perhaps Greenville could work on (1) getting a coalition of downtown stores to provide free parking (perhaps by stamping tickets from parking garages; I've seen other cities do this) and (2) getting a mall-type manager such as Urban Retail or Jones Lang LaSalle to manage downtown's retail base and coordinate store openings and the like?

Surely having a jumble of property owners and no central management or direction isn't good. From what I can tell, downtown doesn't even have a mall-type website listing its stores.

What Greenville needs is an answer to this very problem. This can be easily addressed thorugh Business Improvement District. This would give businesses organizational leverage and resources to advertize and create their own improvements in whatever form they deem is necessary. Right now, anything you see that advertizes downtown comes from City Hall. Many other cities have them (Columbia, Charleston, Charlotte, Raleigh...), and its an ideal next step for Greenville.

The Greenville Journal should do an article on if and how the city of Greenville is pushing for more national retailers downtown.

I have heard that the City is working on attracting national retailers to downtown. But first it requires an accurate pedestrian count....

---

I wish I had kept up with this thread. If I had known the map shop was closing I would have gone in there today. How very sad. But that letter made it seem as though they weren't closing due to lack of business... just better business in different areas and different cities.

[lbs5015]

Don't Know if this was posted already, but on a good note I noticed a new store next to Drake Flowers which was previously vacant. I think its called Carolina Chocolates.

[gs3]

I find it rather odd that the closings are happening in a small one maybe two block zone. Look at how close (geographically) the closings have been. Just seems strange to me, especially considering the following OPENINGS (or scheduled openings) in the rest of downtown (which all slant toward South Main / West End):

Ivy Salon

Go Fish

Plaza Suite

Talloni Shoes

High Cotton

the artist row at Riverplace

Brew & Ewe

Impanema

and that whole little row in West End that are fairly new....Monkees, Life is Good, etc, etc.

Is retail moving toward West End? What is the cities ulimate goal.....meaning, which area are they pushing for a heavy concentration of restaurants/bars and which area are they pushing for retail?

[g-man430]

You can blame Falls Park and West End Field for that, gsupstate. Have you ever notice how many people are at Falls Park and how many are in front of the Hyatt on any given Saturday. There are hardly any ever in that plaza area where the fountain is in front of the Hyatt, but there always seems to be a ton by Falls Park, because it is advertised better and is the crown jewel of the city. Less than five years ago, the place to be was on North Main St. near the Hyatt and not in the West End near Falls Park, but that has completely flip-flopped over the last 3-4 years.

Edited January 12, 2007 by g-man430

[RestedTraveler]

The attraction that people have to Falls Park, River Place, and the West End is certainly part of this. Mast General Store is the only real draw on North Main. A couple of destination-type national retailers may pull more people that direction. Who knows?

Perhaps some consideration should be given to continuing events (like the summer event series (Main Street Jazz, etc.)) into the Winter? Perhaps plan some event for North Main (Piazza Bergamo or the Hyatt Courtyard) on Saturday afternoons throughout the winter (weather permitting) to get pepople downtown? I have no idea what kind of event series, but I'm sure that they could think of something.

[breed]

I saw an add in the Sunday paper a few weeks ago for a company that let's multiple business rent from a single location and would have shared administrative help. One of their locations I saw was on Coffee Street. Anyone know the name of this place. It wasn't my paper as I saw it while visiting my parents house around Christmas and something like this might be good for my business instead of a bigger dedicated building.

http://www.theofficesite.net/

They not only have a site downtown, but two on Woodruff Rd... Merovan and The Point.

[mallguy]

Who is in charge of Greenville's government committee or whatever that is in charge of luring national retailers downtown?

We need someone who loves to shop and who is a total fashionista to be on that committee- not just some Joe Schmo who isn't really up on the latest stores and retail trends!

[GvilleSC]

The attraction that people have to Falls Park, River Place, and the West End is certainly part of this. Mast General Store is the only real draw on North Main. A couple of destination-type national retailers may pull more people that direction. Who knows?

Perhaps some consideration should be given to continuing events (like the summer event series (Main Street Jazz, etc.)) into the Winter? Perhaps plan some event for North Main (Piazza Bergamo or the Hyatt Courtyard) on Saturday afternoons throughout the winter (weather permitting) to get pepople downtown? I have no idea what kind of event series, but I'm sure that they could think of something.

An ice rink at Piazzo Bergamo would help A LOT! Unfortunately it hasn't panned out. With the total make over of the West Washington/Richardson/Main/Piazza Bergamo block should help attract more people to the North Main area. It has potential for a neat space and an attraction of some sort (hopefully NOT just a carousel). This project should provide that draw and we'll see if it does just that.

And it is funny to think that pretty much ALL of our downtown construction over the last two years atleast have been entirely in the West End. It's healthy. Our originally revitalized section of Main won't lose its luster just yet. It's still the only portion of Main with a true continuous tree canopy. The matured trees will keep people coming and the businesses will stay where the people are.

[RestedTraveler]

An ice rink at Piazzo Bergamo would help A LOT! Unfortunately it hasn't panned out.

It's funny...as much as I have shouted that from the tree tops on this forum in the past, I completely forgot about it when I was posting my reply earlier. You're absolutely right. Talk about having something on North Main that would be a draw for pedestrian traffic....that would certainly do it.

[Gviller]

Working on main st for the past 8 years I have noticed a huge downturn in the buzz that used to swirl around downtown over the past year.

I can speculate at the reasons but I have no evidence to back that speculation up.

For one thing, several of the shops that closed, closed because they were bad business ideas or were run poorley.

The two clothing stores were specific to a very select market and to be honest the product was just not what the people wanted. Bently's Books was a great store for browsing but I was never really sure how they made their money. So I dont see these store closings as indicitive of downtown Greenville. But, the palpable excitment that used to be in this place is not there at the moment and I attribute it to Greenvilles clamp down on entertainment and nightlife, not the lack of major retailers.

Lets face it, Downtown Greenville will never be a place you will come just to buy stuff you need. It will always be a destination location. You are either here to work or have fun and in my opinion the City of Greenville has been paying for to much attention to local condo owners and condo developers and far to little attention to the people that brought downtown Greenville to the dance.

Not allowing any new bars to open up, making them close earlier and earlier, and doing away with smoking in the city limits. These things drive away young people and the youth are the ones that bring a buzz. People might still come on a pretty sunday afternoon for the park or to eat a Rick Erwins, but trust me its the exitement and the buzz that they want and will bring them back. I have felt it all the time I have worked downtown and often been amazed that I never got tired of it or used to it and its absence echo's every time I walk out into the street from my office now.

Make no mistake, this is a serioiuse problem and it needs to be corrected quickly. Greenville needs an injection of energy and a dose of cool in a bad way but I dont see anything on the horizon that will bring that.

Bring back the fun and the retailers will come.

[whitehourseview]

I'm making an educated guess here, but I think the reason why the emphasis is on catering to a residential downtown and not a nightlife location is because residents and what supports them, are more dependable sources of tax revenue and city image.

Night clubs, bars and restaurants, even knick - nack shops at best can have short shelf lives. The Map Shop was open for 25 years, that's positively ancient for a single owner store like that. Places like Ear Shot and Bentley's had modern internet technology do an end run around them, making them virtually obsolete. If a restaurant is open for five years, it's a booming success.

Residents tend to stay a while. Their condos stay for decades. They provide taxes, support city services and tend to have a vested interest in ensuring the viability of their area. A restaurant and bar district tends to be less of a symbiotic relationship and more of a carnivorous relationship.

Again, just a guess about why the city prefers things like closing hours and alcohol regulations, smoking bans, McBee Development, etc, that are preferred by residents.

Some might say have it all, and I guess there is an appeal to that, but life is often about making choices with limited resources.

Again, guess on the situation.

[g-man430]

...but if you want downtown Greenville to be really successful, all you need is one of these: http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/.../701120331/1004

[gs3]

I have heard a couple of downtown merchants comment that weekend evenings (when people are going out) tends to be a slower time for them. People spending at bars are probably not spending retail dollars.

I agree with you Gviller, the city clamps down too hard on bars, The Grape, being an example. But does this help or hurt retail?

This is where I'm curious about the city planning......what is Greenville's plan for bars? Bars to me seem scattered throughout downtown and West End. I would specifically like to see more of a "party" (for lack of a better word) nightlife district.

[goodbye]

I find Gviller's comment interesting since I have been thinking the opposite about the "buzz" during the winter months thusfar. From my perspective, downtown is really doing very well in regards to attracting people despite the hardships of many locally owned shops. In fact, I had intended to post this earlier, but I'd wager more people are walking the streets in the cold this year than any of the previous several years. Now I do agree about the later hours though. The nightlife crowd overall is dimishing somewhat, although there are times it may even be higher than the recent past. The question to ask is, "What are the City's short term and long term plans for downtown Greenville?" Without any solid vision of exactly what is expected, this trend will continue, and any potential anchors may think twice before entering the scene. As others have already pointed out, the uneasy and inconsistent rules are leaving more people wondering what to do. I personally don't want to see Main Street turn into just another place for bums to hang out. Instead, it should continue to expand and be strengthened by successful shops, stores, restaurants, bars, hotels, businesses, and major attractions - without vacant storefronts and lots. I think this is happening, but the relapse of shop closures is not any help.

[whitehourseview]

This is where I'm curious about the city planning......what is Greenville's plan for bars? Bars to me seem scattered throughout downtown and West End. I would specifically like to see more of a "party" (for lack of a better word) nightlife district.

If I remember the Jillian's incident I think the last thing the city would want would be a nightlife district.

[mallguy]

I read a book about downtown development and taxes a while back (maybe it was in the book, "Downtown"), and the gist of the findings was that business areas generally pay lots of taxes and don't consume much in local government spending, while residential areas pay less in taxes (due to houses, for example, being worth less than larger commercial buildings and having no revenue from retail sales, etc.) but consume a lot more in local government services (such as education, health care, etc.). Short summary of the argument, but that's the point of it.

Thus if Greenville viewed downtown solely in terms of the tax revenues vs. expenditures on it, then Greenville would focus on attracting office space and retailers downtown.

And if it wanted a long-term commercial tenant, get a Belk's or something; department stores tend to have long leases.

[gs3]

If I remember the Jillian's incident I think the last thing the city would want would be a nightlife district.

I don't think I was living here then, but wasn't Jillians going to be on Main? That's kind of my point. Why wouldn't the city have a nightlife district off and away from Main? Main is always going to have upscale restaurants, but why not have an area for bars and clubs? I always refer to them as "midtown areas".

Overall, I see no less buzz on Main.

So back on the retail on Main, the people are there, the parking is there, news stores are opening, some stores are doing exceptional. Do we have any clearer picture of why these 5 or so stores closed?