2030 Transit Plan

[mshook]

I will agree that I'm dissappointed that we didn't have an intial line run to the Airport. Our airport is very Business oriented and our Business travelers and the city would have benefited greatly to have a line from the Airport to the CBD.

On a side note, Chicago's rail line does converge at the CBD.

[Justadude]

It would be easier to justify the airport line if there were something other than the airport out there. I can't really think of where such a line would stop on the way to the airport that would be worth having a train station... that would make the cost/benefit ratio pretty low. But yeah... it would be nice if visitors could get off the plane knowing that there's cheap, easy transit straight into the city's business and tourism center.

[monsoon]

Someone has paid a great deal of money to put a sign on I-85, one of the huge ones that says "Vote for Cleaner Air, Vote against the Repeal" You can see this sign headed North near the Graham Street exit.

Now I believe this points out the questions that I have made above are valid and relevant given that one of the reasons being given for voting for the tax is to produce cleaner air in Charlotte. So where is the study that shows how much cleaner the air will be if the 2030 plan is implemented? What happens to the air if the tax is repealed? What goals has CATS been given to reduce air pollution in Charlotte by removing cars from the road? (and how much will they produce in the process?)

None of these questions, as far as I know have been addressed, answered or looked into. And the reason they aren't is because the rail system as implemented won't make on iota's difference in this regard. Transit tax supporters have been calling the public gulliable for signing the petition to repeal the tax, yet this misinformation about cleaner air is about as disingenous as it gets.

[cinco]

When I say traffic, I mean the movement of people from one place to another. In Charlotte's case we solve this problem by building more roads and adding capacity to existing roads. If you want to solve this problem by a different method, so that Charlotte does not end up being another Atlanta, or Houston or Phoenix, etc, then your only real alternative is to build a trains system that is focused on this traffic and build systems that facilitate the movement of people. As a quick example of that look at a road map of Charlotte if you see where people need to go and imagine if the road system instead looked like what CATS has done for the trains.

[Charlotte_native]

^Maybe it is because NONE of us are experts in the field of transportation, mass transit, or rail lines and are just doing the best we can with the information we have. As far as I know, NO ONE can know the answers to this other than researching the same way everyone else does. This discussion just goes round and round and round because it is all 1) just opinion from one person to another, 2) much CAN'T be proven until the line or lines are running so actual numbers can be measured, and 3) the plan calls for years of construction and implementation so October 2007 is just a random period to project what one FEELS or believes will happen.

Everyone seems to want to prove they are RIGHT when that is really impossible at this point. Many believe one way and many believe another way. Can't be proven until it is in place and running, period. This is true for the anti folks, the pro folks, the CATS folks, the fed folks, etc.

[monsoon]

The question is not about us but what CATS is doing. The point has made the point they have hired plenty of transit experts starting with Tober on down. I have met several of them. They have spent millions doing studies on what exactly this line is going to do and I feel they could produce such an air pollution study if asked of them. However nobody wants to do so because they don't want the answer to that question, I would assume.

Aside from that however, if nobody can answer if the 2030 plan will actually do anything about pollution, in fact not make it worse, then they should not be telling the people to support the tax because it will mean cleaner air. It's a pretty simple concept and not one bound by opinion or circular reasoning.

[Charlotte_native]

Aside from that however, if nobody can answer if the 2030 plan will actually do anything about pollution, in fact not make it worse, then they should not be telling the people to support the tax because it will mean cleaner air. It's a pretty simple concept and not one bound by opinion or circular reasoning.

[cinco]

Someone has paid a great deal of money to put a sign on I-85, one of the huge ones that says "Vote for Cleaner Air, Vote against the Repeal" You can see this sign headed North near the Graham Street exit.

Now I believe this points out the questions that I have made above are valid and relevant given that one of the reasons being given for voting for the tax is to produce cleaner air in Charlotte. So where is the study that shows how much cleaner the air will be if the 2030 plan is implemented? What happens to the air if the tax is repealed? What goals has CATS been given to reduce air pollution in Charlotte by removing cars from the road? (and how much will they produce in the process?)

None of these questions, as far as I know have been addressed, answered or looked into. And the reason they aren't is because the rail system as implemented won't make on iota's difference in this regard. Transit tax supporters have been calling the public gulliable for signing the petition to repeal the tax, yet this misinformation about cleaner air is about as disingenous as it gets.

[Charlotte_native]

i don't know.

[Justadude]

I have seen several sources asserting that light rail "might" increase pollution, but I haven't seen a clear rationale as to how it would happen. It seems counterintuitive than an electric train would create more exhaust in a 20-minute trip than dozens of cars and trucks idling for 45 minutes in traffic.

Does anyone know the specifics of the claim that pollution could increase due to the use of rail?

[monsoon]

I honestly don't see where the addition of one electric light rail train would have much effect on air pollution except that Charlotte is surrounded by 3 very dirty coal fired power plants that supply some of the power going into our grid.

However the 2030 plan, which is operating a very inefficient bus service might very well be causing an excess of air pollution. There are confirmed studies, that have been cited in the reference material posted in this thread that say if passengers/service mile drop to below 7, its better not to have bus service as automobiles don't use as much resources. The 2005 numbers indicate that CATS is at 7 now, and has been trending downwards for some time. Let's keep in mind the majority of the tax money is being used to support this bus system.

From this it could be concluded that if you want cleaner air you would vote to repeal the tax.

[southslider]

^Sure, just one train with the same population and travel behavior as today won't make much difference. But whether or not the Repeal passes or fails, more people will be moving here, and developers will keep pushing denser products.

By offering more travel choices and targeting density where it can be supported by infrastructure, Charlotte will be able to continue its growth, but with fewer consequences to our environment than a roads-only strategy. In other words, light rail won't clean the air, but a balanced strategy of various modes and housing choices will mitigate the environmental degradation guaranteed to come with a larger population living here.

It's unsexy to admit, but when it comes to just air quality, it's honestly about making the future less bleak. True, light rail then by itself only makes a dent. But to fully assess if such strategy is cost-effective, you need to look at the full return, and that's much more than just our air quality. For with transit-oriented development strategies also comes more economical uses of all resources (land, utilities, schools, and even roads), greater return per square foot, and denser tax base to pay for the various amenities we all enjoy.

[uptownliving]

If you want to find out how many cars the South LRT is projected to remove you can contact David Leard at CATS who can tell you how many Choice Riders they are projecting.

Also if you want to find out the air pollution impact of the South LRT you can contact Jim Humphries at CDOT. They are requierd by the EPA to project air pollution impacts using their travel model. If a proposed transportation project is shown in the model to make the air pollution worse then it is not allowed to be built. The South LRT had to go through this same modeling.

[staffer]

...the purpose of the rail transit plan here is to spur development for developers and not solve transit problems.

[monsoon]

^I am going to assume that since you referred to me by name then you would have at least tried to understand what I have written. I have never "pretended" development pressures didn't exist in this county so that criticism is unfounded. If you read what I have posted and for that matter all of the other posts I have made on UrbanPlanet then you should know that I am very concerned about these development pressures. The blame BTW is not the developers who built the types of development that you cite, but rather the governmental agencies that continue to allow them to be built. They have the power to stop it but at least in Charlotte there is no political will to do so.

This is why I am now so ciritical of the 2030 plan because it pretty much operates as if these pressures don't exist since it doesn't solve any of them. You give the example of Cornelius to the CBD and getting people to move from their cars to a train, but that plan is DOA because the system they designed is so lacking, that it's only projected to have a ridership of around 4000 - 4500 in 25 years. That is barely the population of a housing development in this county these days and the current price tag for implementation is $400,000,000 plus operating costs.

When you go about spending upwards of 6 Billion dollars on a public works project one hopes the public might get some good out of it. There is nothing that I see in the 2030 plan that is going to do much good for the public. There are no quantifiable results on several issue and without those, these platitudes that I keep hearing on transit will never be realized.

[Justadude]

This is why I am now so ciritical of the 2030 plan because it pretty much operates as if these pressures don't exist since it doesn't solve any of them. You give the example of Cornelius to the CBD and getting people to move from their cars to a train, but that plan is DOA because the system they designed is so lacking, that it's only projected to have a ridership of around 4000 - 4500 in 25 years. That is barely the population of a housing development in this county these days and the current price tag for implementation is $400,000,000 plus operating costs.

[Spartan]

Someone has paid a great deal of money to put a sign on I-85, one of the huge ones that says "Vote for Cleaner Air, Vote against the Repeal" You can see this sign headed North near the Graham Street exit.

Now I believe this points out the questions that I have made above are valid and relevant given that one of the reasons being given for voting for the tax is to produce cleaner air in Charlotte. So where is the study that shows how much cleaner the air will be if the 2030 plan is implemented? What happens to the air if the tax is repealed? What goals has CATS been given to reduce air pollution in Charlotte by removing cars from the road? (and how much will they produce in the process?)

None of these questions, as far as I know have been addressed, answered or looked into. And the reason they aren't is because the rail system as implemented won't make on iota's difference in this regard. Transit tax supporters have been calling the public gulliable for signing the petition to repeal the tax, yet this misinformation about cleaner air is about as disingenous as it gets.

[monsoon]

Spartan, what you posted about public transit is interesting but nobody has quantified if CATS is in fact building, designing and operating a system that will achieve those goals. Certainly an inefficient bus service is going to produce more pollution than it saves.

They can't make the claims they are making about voting against the tax because they have not done any studies or produced any documentation that indicates what will happen if the tax is gone. There are a lot of mis truths being told here as I got a postcard in the mail today that said to vote for the tax. It makes the following claims of what will happen if the tax is gone:

• Cutting current bus service - This is a good thing because the current bus service is so inefficient they can't afford to keep adding passengers.

• Worsening Traffic congestion - already discussed. They have not proven at all that keeping the tax will do anything what so ever about the state of traffic in this county. I've laid out the reasons that I think the 2030 plan completely fails on this matter.

• Deteriorating Air Quality - Again already discussed. They have not proven this at all and there is all indications their bus service, which consumes most of the tax is making air pollution worse.

• Increasing property taxes - Well this is mainly an issue for those living in Charlotte. I would say the burden needs to go on those benefitting from the service.

• Losing millions in federal funds - They currently don't have any federal funding at risk due to the loss of this tax. This one is blatantly incorrect.

• Risking expected economic growth - What does this mean? It seems to me that Charlotte has grown quite well without the rail system and continues to do so. This is a red herring argument..

It amazes me that so much money is being spent to get people to convince people to vote a certain way. This money could be better spent doing the studies that I recommend and then implementing a plan that might actually do something about it.

[Spartan]

They can indeed make those claims. We are, in fact, building a transit system and it seems to me that those figures are still relevant regardless of whether or not a study has been conducted on our LYNX system. Its not a question of whether or not it will reduce pollution, but by how much it will reduce pollution. That, of course, can't be measured until we get some ridership numbers next year.

[monsoon]

^Ahh that is a bit of circular reasoning. Just because they are doing it then it must be good. I don't think so.

I am assuming you are completely ignoring the fact the bus system is operating at 7 passengers/mile which is at the lower edge of efficiency. This is down from 11 ten years ago and represents the last time that CATS reported the numbers to the Feds in 2005. Below that level, it is more efficient to put people in automobiles as that will cause less pollution.

I am also assuming that you have discounted the fact that putting 35,000 people on rail will have a negligible effect on anything in 25 years since the county is expected to grow by far more than this number.

[uptownliving]

If the 1/2 Cent Transit Tax is voted down in November I don't think that Mecklenburg will get a 2nd Chance. If we vote the 1/2 Cent Transit Tax down and mass transit is drastically cut then we are setting ourselves on a path where in just a few years we will reach EPA Air Quality Non-Attainment where all federal road and transit funding will be cut. That is what the air pollution models show (the ones that monsoon claims don't exist). If you want to learn more about the Air Quality Travel model you can contact Jim Humphries at CDOT. We really don't have time to throw the 2030 Plan in the trash and do 10 years worth of studies and modeling (that have already been done and are continually updated). The 2030 Plan is not etched in stone and can be changed at any time and in fact is requiered to be reviewed/updated at least every 5 years. All the 2030 Plan was the MTC's best effort in November 2006 saying this is the best we can do at this time with the money we have.

[monsoon]

..... (the ones that monsoon claims don't exist). I....

[Andyc545]

I never said there were no studies concerning the sad state of the air pollution in Charlote. You must have missed the topics I have started onthe subject. If you are going to refer to me directly then please try to be correct about it.

What I said is there is no proof at all the 2030 plan will do anything towards achieving those goals and in fact wasting $6B on it may very well mean that we fail to meet those goals.

[monsoon]

Metro, also to directly answer your question/concern regarding air quality, here are the facts. These are the facts that were needed for CAT's research when the plan got pitched to government officials, so I would take this as above average in reliability.

....

"Air Quality:

• Traffic and off-road vehicles account for 63 percent of our region's ozone pollution.
  • Transit emits 92 percent less VOC {volatile organic compounts} and 50 percent less NOx {Nitrogen Oxides} per passenger mile than a car."

  OK I am game and willing to be educated on the matter. Can you provide a link to any report from CATS to the MTC or the Charlotte City Council indicating that they should continue to receive transit money based on the declining air quality in Charlotte and they have a plan that will reduce it. I would be interested to know what goals they have for this and how much they are going to spend to get it there. I suspect no such animal exists, but again if you have access to it, since you seem so convinced of the matter I would like to read it. Don't confuse this with CATS statement that it is working on reducing the air pollution that it creates.

  Else,

  What you posted is simply a statement about the air pollution in Charlotte and where it is coming from. What is missing is how does the efforts supported by the transit tax going to reduce this pollution. Finally nobody has come out and said for sure that anything will be canceled if the tax is repealed. They still have the option to pay for it through the property tax, but if that happens you can bet that CATS will be scrutinized so that it cuts out the waste. (and that is a good thing)

[Spartan]

^Ahh that is a bit of circular reasoning. Just because they are doing it then it must be good. I don't think so.

I am assuming you are completely ignoring the fact the bus system is operating at 7 passengers/mile which is at the lower edge of efficiency. This is down from 11 ten years ago and represents the last time that CATS reported the numbers to the Feds in 2005. Below that level, it is more efficient to put people in automobiles as that will cause less pollution.

I am also assuming that you have discounted the fact that putting 35,000 people on rail will have a negligible effect on anything in 25 years since the county is expected to grow by far more than this number.