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2030 Transit Plan

monsoon

By monsoon
in Charlotte

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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Metro, you of all people should know what a nonsense statement that is. The center city contains the seat of County government; most of the significant city offices; several venues for major events (including the Convention Center); the city's Amtrak, Greyhound, and central bus station; the central homeless shelter; the largest concentration of Parks and Rec facilities; and the city's densest concentration of residences.
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dubone Megalopolis

dubone

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It seems to be a common tactic in politics to use words incorrectly as labels in order to discredit with the connotation of the word, even if the word does not literally apply. Using labels like 'office park' for downtown or 'strip mall' for a mixed use project, when they do not apply by definition, seems to be purely to frustrate debate opponents, but it only serves to discredit the person using terms incorrectly. Downtowns are not office parks, even if they are dominated by office uses, even if they are similar in effect to office parks. I'll note that if an office park in Huntersville had ~70k jobs in a square mile, I'd be clamoring to include it in the transit plan.

As for residential density, it is true that some parts of downtown don't have residences right now (presumably the facts that led to the office park reference). So then, you can't use those sections in tallying up the density of the actual neighborhoods. If you look at the boundaries and data the city uses to review neighborhood statistics, 4th Ward has a density of 15200 people per square mile, 3rd Ward has almost 6000 people per sq mi, and 1st Ward has 4300 people per sq mile. The total density for those three residential neighborhoods is 7284 people per square mile. It isn't dense in terms of other cities, but it is among the densest housing in the city. Those are 2006 numbers, and while we can wait for actuals, the projects currently under construction are expected to double the population.

Anyway, there are enough red herrings in the argument that it doesn't really matter which red herring we dispel, there will always be another one to jump out. Another is the argument that downtown is getting all the transit. Bus operations use a hub and spoke model right now, so that happens to be uptown. The hub benefits from being a destination for many bus riders, but it is just an operational model, and its main purpose is not to serve downtown entirely, it is to allow for the highest number of possible connections without enough support to point to point service. It is similar to airlines , where Charlotte benefits from the hub, but all that service is designed mostly for transfers than for serving Charlotte. Eventually, like with airlines, there is enough demand to have point to point service and more distribution of operations, with the ideal being a triangle-based system when it can be supported.

We are to the point with our bus system, where the hub and spoke is not as efficient, and CATS is starting to lay the infrastructure for a more triangulation and point to point service. They are putting middle ring transit centers in each quadrant: Eastland Community Transit Center serves the east, South Park Community Transit Center serves the south, and Rosa Parks Place Community Transit Center serves the north and west. The downtown CTC is way over capacity at this point, and the whole idea of the 2030 plan is to allow the mass transit corridors to still connect centrally for transfer. The bus system can then be reshuffled to focus on connecting neighborhoods to mass transit corridors, using the community transit centers as more localised transfer points.

So while we can make the argument that downtown is the best hope for density in the region, that its employment density is a natural focal point for transit, and that its tax base certainly pulls its weight, it is still just a side issue. Downtown is a focal point for current bus system and the planned mass transit system simply because a hub and spoke model is the best value for providing service until the time when ubiquitous point to point service can be supported. The bus system pioneers, starting with hub and spoke, then mass transit takes over for hub and spoke, then the bus system evolves to pioneer more point to point service, then the mass transit can be added to the highest demand points.

If you want the pie in the sky end result of ubiquity and a matrixed blanket of service across the entire city with infinite point to point options, you have to evolve to get there, just like the airline system has. Busses first and then slowly built up mass transit lines for the corridors in most demand and eventually you have enough demand to build more. This city started late, so we are just now trying to move the next phase. Stopping it now will end all possibility for any transit system that captures more than a tiny niche of the total transportation market in the city.

Of course, we can always just sit back and mock the nascent nature of our urban core and our transit plans and retail plans and residential density and on and on. But any ideal only comes through evolution and not instantaneous divine creation, regardless of what anyone wants to believe -- be it transit, city development, technology, business, philosophy, the opposable thumb, the honeybee pollination symbiosis.

Mocking is more fun in debates, though, I suppose. It'll probably help win the voting campaign, but it doesn't make it truth.

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Charlotte_native City

Charlotte_native

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Tell ya what, if downtown is just an office park I have a whole new opinion of office parks. This weekend, with the weather finally taking a cooler turn, has created a fantastic vibrant street scene *(while office workers are all away). Numerous folks milling and walking about of all types from skateboarders to kids with their parents going to High School Musical on ice, to some convention, to the Italian Festival, to tourists taking photos...I could go on and on. The sidewalks from 9 yesterday morning until right now have been packed. Not partiers, though plenty came out later at night, just regular folks. Seriously, lots of them. Then last night we head to the Zink Patio -- just two of us, we end up with a table of 10 as friends passed by and stopped in for a quick bite and a glass of wine.

One can dismiss downtown as just offices or clubs to get drunk in, but that would imply that they are somehow missing what everyone else sees.

If uptown is the center of the city, and many people come here for work, play, and other reasons, it is the sensible place to put the center of the transit system. Where else would make sense?

Center city density is growing, activity is growing, retail is finally coming and businesses that weren't open on the weekends finally are. Throw in a transit option and SOME people will choose to use it, not just for work, but to come downtown for whatever reason and leave their car somewhere else. Maybe it WILL be to get drunk, glad we got them off the roads. Maybe to take thier kids to High School Musical on Ice -- kids love trains.

Point is we ARE growing and starting this system now is necessary.

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1979Heel Whistle-Stop

1979Heel

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"If you want the pie in the sky end result of ubiquity and a matrixed blanket of service across the entire city with infinite point to point options, you have to evolve to get there, just like the airline system has. Busses first and then slowly built up mass transit lines for the corridors in most demand and eventually you have enough demand to build more. This city started late, so we are just now trying to move the next phase. Stopping it now will end all possibility for any transit system that captures more than a tiny niche of the total transportation market in the city.

Of course, we can always just sit back and mock the nascent nature of our urban core and our transit plans and retail plans and residential density and on and on. But any the ideal always comes through evolution and not instantaneous divine creation, regardless of what anyone wants to believe -- be it transit, city development, technology, business, philosophy, the opposable thumb, the honeybee pollination symbiosis.

Mocking is more fun in debates, though, I suppose. It'll probably help win the voting campaign, but it doesn't make it truth."

Well-said, Dubone. You too, Charlotte Native.

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dubone Megalopolis

dubone

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Just to point out, I said I would support a destination in Huntersville if it had the activity that downtown had. The point is that transit should go where people go. It certainly should go to places where people live in the suburbs, but the idea you put forth earlier is that downtown has too much transit because it is just an office park but only 10k residents. I'm saying that the density of jobs cause it to be a strong value for transit, even if you put an 'office park' label on it. You may recall that I have long pushed to include URP in the mass transit plan, to underscore that point.

I'm trying to discredit you because I think some specific debate points are weak, not because you live in Huntersville.

Comparing Huntersville's growth to downtown's growth is apples to oranges, as the density of the population downtown make it a prime target for transit. Huntersville is badly supported by transit because the 37k new residents are spread out over a vastly larger area. Now, my point about the hub is that downtown has the hub because it is centrally located and not because of its population or population density. If the hub for transfers were in downtown Huntersville, it would certainly add transit to Huntersville, but the whole bus system would be less efficient and result in fewer people served across the whole county.

CATS has a finite budget and relies on the MTC (which is structured to favor the towns including Huntersville) to prioritize routes and spending. The fact is, if all those ~40k people living in Huntersville were distributed in neighborhoods as dense as downtown, across a 5.5 square mile area, then you'd better believe that not only would CATS find a way to prioritize it for mass service immediately, but also the Fed would chip in for its portion. Instead, it is in an area maybe 3 or 4 times that large, with a street network comprising a significant number of culdesacs that cannot be served by transit. Without density, transit is hugely inefficient, especially mass transit. When you throw in the fact that there are not many existing dedicated corridors that could allow mass transit to reach the densest parts of Huntersville (Birkdale being one), it gets to be even less feasible.

My feeling is that if Huntersville is so upset about how much transit it is getting (as pointed out by all the news articles, the statements on the town councils, and what you have stated about how people feel there about CATS), why not put political effort to secede from the countywide transit program rather than vote to shut down transit funding for all places in the county.

I did want to get into a Huntersville debate, but that seems to be the source of most of your frustration with CATS, so I guess it might as well be discussed.

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Charlotte_native City

Charlotte_native

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It is a new system being that is being created now, building off of an old one. All problems won't be able to be fixed overnight and all areas of the metro area won't get the perfect service for years. Just a fact. Like roads, these things take lots of time and lots of money. All the while the population is booming and growth is at a breakneck pace. It can't be perfect in an instant so no one should expect it to be so. At least it is being started now, unless we decide to pull the plug, so we might be able to keep up with growth instead of always trying to catch up.

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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I think I have been pretty clear on where I stand in regards to the 2030 Plan in the extensive prose that I continue to add to this thread each week. I post links on this site from all points of views on various subjects that I may or may not directly agree with. This is what administrators do.

On the particular link that you quoted, Todd Fuller (didn't realize he was a former player in the NBA) is a mathematics person by profession and has provided, from what I can see, one of the best analysis on why the current designed system is not going to make ANY difference in the lives of most people in this county. He also makes the additional point that Charlotte has it completely wrong about transit in that it is viewed as a development generator and not as a transit generator. (not the same thing). This is probably the biggest reason we are so willing to accept such a lackluster transit design and at premium prices.

He also makes the point, as I have above, that CATS is wasting a huge amount of money in the process.

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Justadude Burg

Justadude

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Well not if they understood how school assignments have been handled in CMS. The two highschools in the north are in the same choice zone as West Charlotte. The same for the other schools so the ability to get into a good school in this county is not contigent on where you live. I do admit the North wants to break away from the school system but that has not happened yet. In any case, the school system it is irrelevant on a discussion on transit. Please try to stay on topic as I don't want this topic to stray off on a discussion of CmS.
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uptownliving Town

uptownliving

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On the particular link that you quoted, Todd Fuller (didn't realize he was a former player in the NBA) is a mathematics person by profession and has provided, from what I can see, one of the best analysis on why the current designed system is not going to make ANY difference in the lives of most people in this county. He also makes the additional point that Charlotte has it completely wrong about transit in that it is viewed as a development generator and not as a transit generator. (not the same thing). This is probably the biggest reason we are so willing to accept such a lackluster transit design and at premium prices.
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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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I'd like to see someone not affiated or brought in by the John Locke Foundation speak or write about the transit issues we have. Everyone I've read from so far is tied to them in some way. Not a good distribution of sources or opinion. You basically read the same thing altered a bit from a new voice.
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CHARtoSF Unincorporated Area

CHARtoSF

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There's a article in the USA Today newspaper today about how cities across the nation are focusing on mass transit and high-density development. One of the points there talking about is getting people out of cars and onto trains and buses. It's good to see there are people all over this nation who realize that cars are not the ONLY solution like some anti-transit people in Charlotte. I hope Charlotte will prevail with continuing to build mass-transit solutions this November.

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Charlotte_native City

Charlotte_native

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uhh. I have no affiliation with the John Locke foundation, and have made the case (previously) as to why I think CATS is failing to meet the needs of the people of this county. I have also suggested what we should do instead. At least at this point, I don't think any of it has been shown to be wrong or incorrect.

I certainly don't want to restate all of it again, but in simple terms, a system that is only going to put 35,000 people a day on rail in 25 years is not going to serve any useful purpose to the people of this county. The design fails to solve any problems facing the city on transit, air pollution, and sustainability. I agree that it is good for some developers but that is not why you build transit. Furthermore the reason that it is such a dismal plan is because there is not enough money available to build an effective system. The reason there is no money despite the huge amounts of tax flowing into the system is because much of it is being wasted.

On top of all of that, the city of Charlotte, by far the largest municipality in this region, completely fails at putting the right kinds of restrictions on development that would take advantage of an effective transit system.

It's a pretty simple discussion that nobody it seems, wants to have.

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Mobuchu Burg

Mobuchu

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I certainly don't want to restate all of it again, but in simple terms, a system that is only going to put 35,000 people a day on rail in 25 years is not going to serve any useful purpose to the people of this county. The design fails to solve any problems facing the city on transit, air pollution, and sustainability. I agree that it is good for some developers but that is not why you build transit. Furthermore the reason that it is such a dismal plan is because there is not enough money available to build an effective system. The reason there is no money despite the huge amounts of tax flowing into the system is because much of it is being wasted.

On top of all of that, the city of Charlotte, by far the largest municipality in this region, completely fails at putting the right kinds of restrictions on development that would take advantage of an effective transit system.

It's a pretty simple discussion that nobody it seems, wants to have.

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cinco Burg

cinco

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The subject has been brought up but we have not had a discussion. Only a bunch of responses on why it is not important or just silence. Unlike John Locke and his cronies, I don't mind spending 9 Billion dollars on alternative transit, but in the process I want to get something for it. The 2030 Plan does not deliver.
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uptownliving Town

uptownliving

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I don't think so. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt. In 25 years, how many cars will the the rail system take off the road, how much air pollution will it stop (if it doesn't cause it to go up), how much sprawl will be prevented by the 2030 plan, how are these things being measured and what are the goals that CATS will be held accountable to? I have yet to hear answers to any of this.
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Mobuchu Burg

Mobuchu

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I don't think so. However I will give you the benefit of the doubt. In 25 years, how many cars will the the rail system take off the road, how much air pollution will it stop (if it doesn't cause it to go up), how much sprawl will be prevented by the 2030 plan, how are these things being measured and what are the goals that CATS will be held accountable to? I have yet to hear answers to any of this.

Despite budgeting 6-9 billions dollars (yes that is billion with a B) none of these questions have been answered nor does anyone that is pro-CATS want to know these answers it would seem. The analogy of the big pink elephant applies here. I will contend again that the current plan which wastes huge amounts of money chasing meaningless bus ridership percentage numbers, but which only puts 35,000 people on rails, and is mainly viewed as a development vehicle, is not going to do anything to make Charlotte a better place to live.

The subject has been brought up but we have not had a discussion. Only a bunch of responses on why it is not important or just silence. Unlike John Locke and his cronies, I don't mind spending 9 Billion dollars on alternative transit, but in the process I want to get something for it. The 2030 Plan does not deliver.

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