Georgia's Next Atlanta- Macon....

[augga706]

Wait, what connector is being planned for DT Augusta? I havent heard of this one yet and I usually keep up with all of the development in metro Augusta. The only connecting highway from I-20 to Downtown Augusta is Riverwatch parkway which is only partially limited access.

[Kenneth Disraili-Jean]

Yes, it is the St. Sebastion Project.

Here is the link: http://i.spotted.augusta.com/user/1/zoom/176571.jpg

[jungletobacco]

Riverwatch is getting 3 to 4 lane on each side? What is your source? A lot development must be on the way if its going to ba one of the biggest project ever to happen in Augusta!!!!!!

[Kenneth Disraili-Jean]

My source is a freind of mine from Augusta.

Impressive isn't it, Augusta has to deal with over half a million people so it is only logical that it's transportation infustructure would have to keep up with the growth.

[socaguy]

OK, I thought that was the project you were talking about but not sure. I wouldnt really call it a connector from I-20 though. Basically all it looks to be is a spur from the end of Riverwatch (in DT) to Walton way. Will make it easier for West Augustans and Columbia County residents to get to the Medical Centers.

[augga706]

Riverwatch is getting 3 to 4 lane on each side? What is your source? A lot development must be on the way if its going to ba one of the biggest project ever to happen in Augusta!!!!!!

[gah]

Heres some information from the 2006 census estimates taken from the official us census site about the current population of the georgia second tier metros.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/estim...006-annual.html

1. Augusta 523,249

2. Savannah 320,013

3. Columbus 288,847

4. Macon 229,326

5. Athens 185,479

6. Albany 163,961

7. Warner Robins 127,530

* Auburn-Opelika (Alabama) 125,781 (I included this because in 2010 this metro will most likely merge with Columbus)

As of right now Macon and Warner Robins are seperate but will most likely merge when the MSA's are redefined in 2010.

Here's the ranking in growth between 2005 and 2006. This will indicate which metros added the most population in 2006.

1. Savannah 6,557

2. Columbus 6,352

3. Augusta 5,394

4. Athens 3,015

5. Auburn-Opelika 2,659

6. Warner Robins 1,954

7. Macon 1,357

8. Albany 1,156

Note: Even with Macon and Warner Robins combined, they still had less growth than Savannah, Columbus and Augusta. If combined, then Columbus/Auburn/Opelike would have had the most growth.

[PJA]

An MSA basically has one urbanized area of 50,000 or more plus adjacent counties that have a very high degree of social and economic interaction as measured by commuting ties.

A CSA will consist of two or more MSA's that have social and economic interaction as measured by commuting ties but at much lower levels than you would find in a single MSA.

The interstate vs intrastate really has nothing to do with the whether an area is an MSA or a CSA.

[gah]

An MSA basically has one urbanized area of 50,000 or more plus adjacent counties that have a very high degree of social and economic interaction as measured by commuting ties.

A CSA will consist of two or more MSA's that have social and economic interaction as measured by commuting ties but at much lower levels than you would find in a single MSA.

The interstate vs intrastate really has nothing to do with the whether an area is an MSA or a CSA.

[Topher1]

^ It's the Augusta-Richmond Co. GA-SC MSA. Prior to Augusta's consolidation with the county, the metro area was called Augusta-Aiken GA-SC MSA.

So there's clearly a population requirement for naming purposes. When Augusta and Aiken had similar populations (pre-consolidation), they were both mentioned. Now that Augusta is by far the dominant city population-wise, it has sole naming privilege. There's surely a set rule, but I don't know it.

Also, Aiken does, in fact meet the requirements for an independent MSA (UA 70,000 to 80,000 on the SC side), so I can't say for certain whether that effects things. I'd wager that a Columbus, A-O metro would be named only after Columbus, due to the huge population discrepancy between Columbus and the other cities.

[gah]

^ It's the Augusta-Richmond Co. GA-SC MSA. Prior to Augusta's consolidation with the county, the metro area was called Augusta-Aiken GA-SC MSA.

So there's clearly a population requirement for naming purposes. When Augusta and Aiken had similar populations (pre-consolidation), they were both mentioned. Now that Augusta is by far the dominant city population-wise, it has sole naming privilege. There's surely a set rule, but I don't know it.

Also, Aiken does, in fact meet the requirements for an independent MSA (UA 70,000 to 80,000 on the SC side), so I can't say for certain whether that effects things. I'd wager that a Columbus, A-O metro would be named only after Columbus, due to the huge population discrepancy between Columbus and the other cities.

[krazeeboi]

A CSA will consist of two or more MSA's that have social and economic interaction as measured by commuting ties but at much lower levels than you would find in a single MSA.

[Topher1]

^^^^ And your generalization about the nature of CSA's and MSA's is pretty much correct. The commuting patterns (and sometimes some politicking) are what matters.

As a example local to me, Orlando is now the same CSA as Daytona Beach (Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach). Since Palm Coast (Flagler Co.) was already a part of Daytona's CSA, it is also a part of Orlando's CSA now, despite the fact that is has ZERO interaction with the core Orlando counties. If Orlando and Daytona become an MSA, which is likely in the near future, Palm Coast will probably remain only a part of the CSA. However if interaction between Daytona and Port Orange increase to MSA levels, it would also be included in Orlando's MSA at that point.

I'm not sure where the limit is, but hypothetically, MSA's could likely cascade infinitely. Polk Co. FL is a large county between Tampa and Orlando. At one end, Lakeland is a huge source of commuters commute to Tampa. At the other Haines City and Davenport are huge Orlando commuter towns. The number of commuters to both cities is about equal. Continued Polk. Co. growth could lead to an eventually MSA spanning from Sarasota to Palm Coast (212 miles). That of course seems absurd, but I don't think that this CSA is that far away from becoming a reality.....

[PJA]

Very good questions! Yes if two MSA's within a single CSA can become one MSA if the standards are met. Now I'm pretty sure the opposite could be true but I have never heard that happening and it would probably be very rare since most MSA's increase in population and development which would further cement the bond between the cities and towns within an MSA.

The consequence of changing it is for general classification purposes as well as budgetary. Most small towns in metro areas identify themselves with the main city in a metro..for example Stone Mountain would be considered part of Atlanta. The same is true for most metros..you would most likely tell out of towners you live in Augusta rather than Grovetown because they would be familar with that and most out of towners wouldn't know the difference anyway if they visited. I'm not sure how much of an impact that it has on budgetary concerns but I have read on the census website that it does have some determination as far as that goes.

Also, the Augusta MSA (according the official census site) is offcially known as the Augusta Richmond County GA-SC MSA because Augusta-Richmond County has consolidated making them one city (minus the other two towns in the county). I have seen it referred as the Augusta-Aiken MSA but that isn't an official name and I'm not sure why some people call it that because Aiken isn't very comparable in size to Augusta at all. It's population is right now at about 29,000 while North Augusta's is about 20,000. In order to be it's on msa it would have to have an urbanized area of at least 50,000 but North Augusta's population would be tied to Augusta's population automatically since they border each other, therefore North Augsuta's population wouldn't be included with Aiken's population even though they are in the same county and same state. Aiken would have enough to be a micropolitan statistical area but the whole county would have to be included which again North Augusta (as well as Beech Island) would always be linked to Augusta due to their proximity.

Now if Columbus and Auburn-Opelika combined they might be called the Columbus Auburn Opelika MSA becuase they might still have two distinct urbanized areas...but I'm not sure on that. Maybe someone who is more of an expert can address that.

As far as comparing Columbus A-O's CSA to Augusta's MSA, you could do that in some cases esepecially when businesses are looking at to move to area's and are using a CSA's population to determine if they want to locate there or not. At the same time if they are strictly looking at MSA statistics then you would have to compare just the MSA statistics only.

Here's another example I actully got from the census website CMA's. Someone might live within a particular MSA and do all of their business there but on the weekend they may take a trip to another MSA within that same CMA. So there is some interaction but not enough to warrant them becoming one MSA.

I do have question ..how far is Columbus from Opelika and Auburn?

[PJA]

A CSA can also consist of one MSA and one micropolitan statistical area.

[PJA]

^ It's the Augusta-Richmond Co. GA-SC MSA. Prior to Augusta's consolidation with the county, the metro area was called Augusta-Aiken GA-SC MSA.

So there's clearly a population requirement for naming purposes. When Augusta and Aiken had similar populations (pre-consolidation), they were both mentioned. Now that Augusta is by far the dominant city population-wise, it has sole naming privilege. There's surely a set rule, but I don't know it.

Also, Aiken does, in fact meet the requirements for an independent MSA (UA 70,000 to 80,000 on the SC side), so I can't say for certain whether that effects things. I'd wager that a Columbus, A-O metro would be named only after Columbus, due to the huge population discrepancy between Columbus and the other cities.

[gah]

Distance between C and A-O depends on where you measure from. I am not sure but my best guess is from DT to DT is in neighborhood of 25-30 miles. If measuring from furtherest C suburbs (Smiths) along highway in Southern Lee County to closest A-O suburbs south of those towns is much shorter (my best guess, and only my best guess, is in the neighborhood of 15-20 miles).

Seems then that the distinction between A-A and C-A-O is that A-A are closer and that that shorter distance is more continuously urbanized. There is a decided "break" in urbanization in the longer stretch between C and A-O. That gap is filling in from both directions (from Columbus, west and north and from Auburn-Opelika south and east) but still has a ways to go. If A-O do become part of a combined SMA in 2010 it will likely be the result of an influx of BRAC residents moving into Smiths (southern Lee County) and then commuting into the core counties of Muscogee/Chattahoochee (ie, Ft Benning) and not because of complete ubanization of stretch between the current two SMA's.

[ATLman1]

Very good questions! Yes if two MSA's within a single CSA can become one MSA if the standards are met. Now I'm pretty sure the opposite could be true but I have never heard that happening and it would probably be very rare since most MSA's increase in population and development which would further cement the bond between the cities and towns within an MSA.

The consequence of changing it is for general classification purposes as well as budgetary. Most small towns in metro areas identify themselves with the main city in a metro..for example Stone Mountain would be considered part of Atlanta. The same is true for most metros..you would most likely tell out of towners you live in Augusta rather than Grovetown because they would be familar with that and most out of towners wouldn't know the difference anyway if they visited. I'm not sure how much of an impact that it has on budgetary concerns but I have read on the census website that it does have some determination as far as that goes.

Also, the Augusta MSA (according the official census site) is offcially known as the Augusta Richmond County GA-SC MSA because Augusta-Richmond County has consolidated making them one city (minus the other two towns in the county). I have seen it referred as the Augusta-Aiken MSA but that isn't an official name and I'm not sure why some people call it that because Aiken isn't very comparable in size to Augusta at all. It's population is right now at about 29,000 while North Augusta's is about 20,000. In order to be it's on msa it would have to have an urbanized area of at least 50,000 but North Augusta's population would be tied to Augusta's population automatically since they border each other, therefore North Augsuta's population wouldn't be included with Aiken's population even though they are in the same county and same state. Aiken would have enough to be a micropolitan statistical area but the whole county would have to be included which again North Augusta (as well as Beech Island) would always be linked to Augusta due to their proximity.

Now if Columbus and Auburn-Opelika combined they might be called the Columbus Auburn Opelika MSA becuase they might still have two distinct urbanized areas...but I'm not sure on that. Maybe someone who is more of an expert can address that.

As far as comparing Columbus A-O's CSA to Augusta's MSA, you could do that in some cases esepecially when businesses are looking at to move to area's and are using a CSA's population to determine if they want to locate there or not. At the same time if they are strictly looking at MSA statistics then you would have to compare just the MSA statistics only.

Here's another example I actully got from the census website CMA's. Someone might live within a particular MSA and do all of their business there but on the weekend they may take a trip to another MSA within that same CMA. So there is some interaction but not enough to warrant them becoming one MSA.

I do have question ..how far is Columbus from Opelika and Auburn?

[aboutmetro]

Distance between C and A-O depends on where you measure from. I am not sure but my best guess is from DT to DT is in neighborhood of 25-30 miles. If measuring from furtherest C suburbs (Smiths) along highway in Southern Lee County to closest A-O suburbs south of those towns is much shorter (my best guess, and only my best guess, is in the neighborhood of 15-20 miles).

Seems then that the distinction between A-A and C-A-O is that A-A are closer and that that shorter distance is more continuously urbanized. There is a decided "break" in urbanization in the longer stretch between C and A-O. That gap is filling in from both directions (from Columbus, west and north and from Auburn-Opelika south and east) but still has a ways to go. If A-O do become part of a combined SMA in 2010 it will likely be the result of an influx of BRAC residents moving into Smiths (southern Lee County) and then commuting into the core counties of Muscogee/Chattahoochee (ie, Ft Benning) and not because of complete ubanization of stretch between the current two SMA's.

[gah]

This is a good point by Gah. If C-A-O were to become an MSA, Smiths would be the 'glue' that determines this. In it's short life, the town's population has tripled to over 21,000. By the year 2010, Smiths' population will likely overtake Opelika's. Since Smiths is a suburb of Columbus, but many residents finding auto industry work in O-A, the commuting scale could very well be tipped. Additionally what will be interesting is how the metro corridor down I-85 between O-A and Lagrange will close. Lagrange is a micropolitan and vvery near being included in Atlanta's MSA. The relationship of Kia and Hyundai and shared suppliers in O-A might reverse that trend and begin another cross-border metro relationship. Many in Columbus now speak of a metro C-O-A-L triangle. With Kia and Brac occuring in the same timeframe and at the end of a census period, we probably won't get an official talley until 2020. By then, it's anticipated, the C-O-A-L will add roughly 15-20% in population in just the 4-year period from 2008-2012.

[georgia478]

all of your questions about Columbus developments (like new and proposed river condos, such as Eagle And Phenix Mill and 10-story Phenixian and Bibb MilL compex) should be answered in the Columbus Subforum

Population of Augusta - 520,000 in Augusta-Aiken MSA -- is larger than Columbus-A-O CSA, and still will be even afer addition of BRAC numbers.

I have tried to answer the "Columbus seems small" question in several threads. In an effort to put it to rest once and for all:

Columbus is different in that a large part of the population is "invisible" -- Ie, they live, work, play, shop and receive medical attention, go to school etc on Ft Benning. The infrastructure that supoports that portion of the population -- huge new PX, 8-story hospital, golf courses, huge airport, etc -- is not often seen by the civilian visitor (or even by long term non-military Columbusites). Sort of like the Vatican -- an enclave "in" Columbus but not really "of" Columbus. The "small Columbus" that most civilians see is actually supporting 30-45,000 fewer folks than the population figures suggest. If those folks were civillian residents, there would be more, taller buildings DT to cater to them and more traditional suburban sprawl. In short, the Columbus population figures include a very large percentage of folks who do not depend on the "small Columbus" that most people see when they drive around. The city may have 200,000 people but it seems to have 30-45,000 less because -- unless you have reason to go on post -- you dont see them or any tangible evidence of their existence. Imagine if Buckhead were a gated community. Atlanta would seem smaller than 500,000 if you never had an opportunity to see where as much as 20-25% of them lived, worked and played.

Macon and Augusta also have military posts, so Benning is not the total explanation (tho the number of military may not be as great as at Benning). An additional reason is that those cities are the opposite of Columbus in that they seem larger than they really are (especially Macon) because of the interstate traffic passing thru them. For example, the traffic in Macon is much heavier than in Columbus because there are a hell of a lot of folks going to and from Fla. That is not local traffic driven by local residents. Columbus does not have its traffic enhanced by passers-thru. All traffic is local, so without the "benefit" of that Fla traffic, Columbus seems slower and more small town. Likewise I-20 passing thru Augusta is heavily travelled to and from Atlanta to Myrtle Beach. If both Macon and Augusta lacked interstate connections, then they too would seem more smalll town rather than bustling urban centers. The number of cars on the road is not reflective of the local population, but in Columbus what you see is cars driven by locals.

Another reason is geography. Macon-WR are fairly close. As are Augusta-Aiken. That gives both cities an enhanced sense of density. Columbus is more diffuse. The city itself is pretty compact (tho is starting to sprawl north and east). It does not have a WR or an Aiken close by. Auburn-Opelika -- which is included as part of the CSA -- is 20-25 miles from DT. That stretch is developing rapidly (especially in the Smith Station area) but is not urbanized over its full length. So fully 100,000 of the total CSA population is located some distance from the remaning 330,000. Macon-WR and Augusta-Aiken are like Minneapolis-St Paul. Columbus-A-O are more like Dallas-Ft Worth. Two centers of population located in one CSA but separated by a fairly large distance.

I hope that this helps to answer the "Columbus seems small" conundrum.

[georgia478]

Oh, and I really don't understand the separation of Macon and Warner Robins. Driving on 247 there is no gap between the 2 cities. You pass by Smiley's and a few other places of business in Macon, then right after that your out by Middle Georgia Regional Airport, and finally you get to that gas station that has a Krystal's Restaurant with Elberta Rd. to the opposite side. No separation and a very short ride.

[gah]

gah that was a great explanation, but considering that you know all of the above, then I don't understand why a couple of you guys from Columbus acted as if I had said something outrageous when I mentioned that I thought Macon felt faster that Columbus.

[cocateho]

You seem to suffer from selective memory -- what you actually said was that Columbus was "boring" -- which was a stupid thing to say (not to mention wrong). I am surprised that you dont know the difference between "slower" and "boring." Maybe you will understand if I said that I felt Macon may seem faster than Columbus but more boring. Which I dont, but it should help you understand that it IS outrageous to say that another town comparable to Columbus in almost all respects is "boring." That is a value judgment which should righfully outrage any resident of the slammed city. It has nothing factual to add to a discussion of what is happening in the 2d tier cities, and is designed only to be provocative.

BTW -- You are welcome for yet another great explanation.

[Spartan]

You are all entitled to you opinions, but please explain them in a respectful manner. We will not tolerate bullying or badgering on this site. If you cannot discuss your opinions in a civil manner you will be suspended.