Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[Matthew.Brendan]

Any follow up on this? Debris? Thrown from bridge? or the bridge is crumbling?

[KJHburg]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:08 AM, Matthew.Brendan said:

Any follow up on this? Debris? Thrown from bridge? or the bridge is crumbling?

looks like a crash on the bridge caused some railings or something to fall. 

Damaged bridge over Independence Boulevard to be closed for repairs (msn.com)

Damaged Bridge over Independence Boulevard to be Repaired Sunday Night (ncdot.gov)

Edited April 20 by KJHburg

[KJHburg]

Charlotte has the 2nd worst commute in the nation according to Forbes only bested by Nashville which was named the worst.  Not sure I agree with this but I do believe Nashville in worse than Charlotte's commute.  

The Hardest Commutes In The U.S. – Forbes Home

[tarhoosier]

How much commuting time is too much? What is your limit, beyond which you would change life pattern, change job, change living location? Have you a limit? Will you accept a job with higher pay and longer commute time? Lower pay and shorter/no commute time? What is your calculus?

edit: for 98% of my working life I lived near the center of the city and my commute was outward and not inward. I was traveling against the rush and not within it. Occasionally I had to drive across town but still not with the traffic crowd.

Edited April 22 by videtur quam contuor

[kayman]

All I know is this.

NCDOT should stop trying to block the rollout of congestion management tools in this region. Those measures such as ramp metering, flexible managed lanes allowing HOV 3+/transit vehicles usage on all freeways, and the completion of grade separation and upgrades to the freeway standards to Independence inside of I-485 and Briar Creek Road and upgrading to grade separated freeway standards to NC 16/Brookshire from I-277 to I-485 Northwest.   All of those things have been planned and, on the table, since the early 2010s but NCDOT has not been supportive of these measures.

For the non-freeway, grade separated expressway roads measures pedestrian scrambles at intersections of two non-arterial or collector (i.e., locally maintained roads) in very densely developed walkable neighborhoods and communities,  They also need to fully support a regional rideshare and vanpool network (with a guaranteed ride home for emergencies) and the formation of a regional transit authority for our region to assist in getting more formalized technical support staff and potential board for transit investments across the board. 

[KJHburg]

77 South widening with a partner or the state alone needs to get going with the tolled express lanes.

Transit Time: The cost of widening I-77 south of uptown Charlotte keeps rising | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

 

[jjwilli]

Or maybe never widen it? The cost to widen will continue to increase every year due to the growth on the east side driven by the light rail. 

The lack of investment in Charlotte roads by the powers that be in Raleigh have led to this financial mess. Is there a breakdown available of the NCDOT investment in Mecklenburg county / Charlotte  over the past 10 - 20 years compared to the rest of the state?

[kayman]

16 hours ago, KJHburg said:

77 South widening with a partner or the state alone needs to get going with the tolled express lanes.

Transit Time: The cost of widening I-77 south of uptown Charlotte keeps rising | WFAE 90.7 - Charlotte's NPR News Source

 

Once again, NCDOT is at fault for this delay, and there is nothing local governments of CoC, Mecklenburg County or the Charlotte MPO (CRTPO) can do speed up the process. Instead of building unnecessary intestate highway connections in the Piedmont Triad or the Triangle, NCDOT should be widening and adding managed toll lanes to the 8-mile stretch of I-77 from I-277 to the North Carolina-South Carolina state line. This 8-mile stretch is way more congested for longer periods of time (nearly 16 hours daily) than any other single corridor in this state or SC.

ETA: It's always amusing to see confusing emojis when it's the truth that NCDOT has repeatedly screws Charlotte on long-term investments.  Even when the region goes on its own then it creates new "technically supported" paradigms to not support future investments like the STI law. It says a lot about said posters' comprehensive and bias,  not my informed opinion on the topic since I work with NCDOT regularly...

Edited April 26 by kayman

[kayman]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:11 PM, jjwilli said:

Or maybe never widen it? The cost to widen will continue to increase every year due to the growth on the east side driven by the light rail. 

The lack of investment in Charlotte roads by the powers that be in Raleigh have led to this financial mess. Is there a breakdown available of the NCDOT investment in Mecklenburg county / Charlotte  over the past 10 - 20 years compared to the rest of the state?

I could post that information, but it's skewed to show "equality" using that warped STI formula from NCDOT.  For the record, that STI Law is pure garbage and I've seen better allocations put together by the FDOT standalone divisions, GDOT, or TXDOT.  NCDOT needs to overhaul its need to serve the metropolitan area from the needs standpoint with highway, non-motorized corridor improvements (pedestrian scrambles, allowing state funds to be used for greenways, multiuse paths, and sidewalk improvements), & better assistance with regional mass transit development and implementation.

It's about equity versus "equality" due to the overwhelming economic strength of the Metro Charlotte area and rapidly growing needs of this region in comparative standing versus other areas that have more state support .

Edited April 28 by kayman

[MarcoPolo]

I'm going to rant a bit....because I had some free time this morning  

I've always enjoyed DOT bashing......NC's, or any other State's for that matter.  They all share in the same pseudo science based ethos steeped in mysticism and dogma.   Hard to find a profession capable of unleashing more damage and death to community fabric and populations in the course of executing their responsibilities than, let's say..... the military?    All kidding aside, the transportation planning profession, and the agencies/institutions that prop it up, have long been out of touch with the actual needs of a society whose vitality and opportunity is fed by mobility and accessibility.   Jane Jacobs clearly understood this over 60 years ago.  She wrote in The Death and Life of Great American Cities, "the traffic planning profession seems almost neurotic in its determination to imitate empiric failure and ignore empiric success".   She did not suffer fools.   Neither should we 

NCDOT is particularly easy to poke at given its foundational bias toward "rural think" and eastern State politics.   Since no transportation planning project has ever solved a congestion issue when it mattered, I will only tangently state the obvious as it relates to the problem solving skills of the NCDOT, and harp more on the physical designs they produce.   One could make an argument that in addition to its founding as the agricultural support center for farming in the Tarheel State, NC State has taken on the mantel as its default transportation engineering/planning skills factory too.  Group think is hard to overcome, and the group think flowing out of NC State emphasizes rural highway designs for all roads and streets, and access to such infrastructure no matter where you live.  Especially for the out-of-the-way parts of the State, particularly those with great representation in the General Assembly that don't have highways/interstates, (a result of not needing any, but don't let reality cloud pork barrel politics!).   An outerbelt for Fayettville.....sure!   Interstate and/or highway spurs to reach empty counties, certainly!  Let's build an interstate through the heart of nothing to ensure Ohio residents can get to Myrtle Beach and Wilmington faster!    A boondoggle development such as the Global Transpark near Kinston needs a nicer entry experience.....of course, no problem!  We'll build a bypass around Kinston to make sure the Global Transpark has no issues with congestion on its way to becoming the air freight hub of the eastern United States!   The latter is one of the more outlandish follies inflicted upon a thinking public.  Since its opening over 30 years ago it has attracted one major tenant...and a couple of small business.   And that highway spur...well it functions at an A+++ level for sure as it probably carries the same level of traffic as my neighborhood street!  A total and needless fix.  Another proud outcome for the NCDOT .   

However, it is another matter entirely to be asked to re-build an interstate running through a developed city corridor with the traffic volumes of I-77 in South Meck.   Keep in mind the DNA of NC State transportation engineers is "rural".   The segment of I-77 in question is not.  It is even different to the improvements made to I-77 in north Mecklenburg for example, and entirely different to every other highway project in the State.   The DOT had to farm out I-77 north to a private company, not only because of efficiency and speed of build, but also design knowhow.    Just take a look at I-277.   Let's set aside the complete uselessness of this piece of infrastructure and the violence it committed on the urban fabric at the heart of the State's largest city.  The physical design is laughable.   It's as if I-277 runs through some suburban/exurban landscape.    Grass embankments with generous grades, clover leaf interchanges, wasteful lane assignments separating local/and thru traffic, sparsely lit at night (a huge problem city wide)....the list is lengthy.....and kind of embarrassing.   Do they do the wildflower planting program along the shoulders and in the clover leafs? 

Back to I-77.  Several design and urban planning shortcomings have conspired to create the FUBAR'd situation the I-77 driving public finds itself in today.  When I discuss design, I'm not siding for or against widening, I'm calling out the fact that the NCDOT does not have the skill set to build urban interstates/highways (see comments in paragraph above).  Add to this that all the local planning agencies lack sufficient sway to promote a more robust thoroughfare network in support.   Widening I-77 through south Charlotte is the same undertaking as widening I-85 in Atlanta back in the 1980's - 90's.  It requires a complete redo...terraforming and realignments across a long corridor.  Easily a 10 plus year project from start to finish if everything goes to plan.  The cost will also be significantly greater than 3 billion.   Think 4 billion plus.   Second, the thoroughfare system in Charlotte is a poor one.  Here is where the argument against widening begins.   Too few connections and alternatives linking to one another.  By the time the ribbon is cut on a widened I-77 the general lanes will be immediately brought to their carrying capacity.   The toll lanes will work fine but will be expensive to use.   Because of the poor regional thoroughfare network, the outcome of widening I-77 will be to transfer the current  congestion between downtown and Tyvola, southwards toward the outerbelt and into SC.   The congestion situation nearer downtown will only be as bad as today's 10-plus years from now.   However, south of Tyvola into SC congestion will increase as the capacity of the general lanes, freed up by the toll lanes, will quickly fill.   And, because exits to all the sprawling suburbs already present, and those which will be built over the next 10 plus years, will not be sized to handle greater volumes, the entire system will experience daytime chronic congestion.   Think Gwinnett County in Atlanta.  The end result of congestion reduction after 4 billion plus dollars, and 10 plus years of headaches will be, for the most part, unnoticeable to many, and intolerable for some within one year of ribbon cutting.  The design outcome, however, will be improved and for those who enjoy an urban interstate section, ie: the typical City freeway in Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, DC, LA, etc. it will look cool.   Maybe not cartoonishly massive as the Katy in Houston, but who would want that in their City!   In the right design hands four billion can definitely buy a "cool looking interstate"!   Another outcome that is assured will be the displacement of hundreds of businesses and residents, which will be replaced with under performing property from a tax assessment basis.   A net downgrade to City revenue immediately along the corridor from what is collected today.  

So let's add up the score thus far (arguably non-scientific ) 

NO Congestion relief, (with many experiencing more congestion).  

NO Meaningful development/redevelopment potential, (along with a decline in property tax revenue).  

NO Environmental improvement, NO, (take my word for it....carbon emissions reductions will not be generated).  

NO Mobility and access improvement to I-77 driving commuters, (and this is the target audience.....so imagine when compared to the general population of the City that never use I-77, which is much greater than those who do, and still are forced to pay for the project  through all sorts of taxes).  

YES Better looking, cool design, (but not pumped up on steroids like the Katy).

A less impactful alternative, but just as expensive if not more so, would be to build elevated toll lanes along the entire corridor, with separate interchanges and adjoining road improvements to connect.   The main line segment would also require interchange improvements at almost every exit, but the land waste would be greatly reduced from the NCDOT's typical rural highway approach because large land purchases would not need to be made along the entire corridor's length, and mass grading no longer needed to mitigate the massive gash suffered upon either side of the Interstate to accommodate more lanes at grade.  Done with correct design it too would look pretty cool, so that would also remain in the YES column.   And, we've added one more YES, the development/redevelopment potential.   But, alas, this requires a DOT that understands the design differences between cities and small towns/countryside.

Are either of these worth 4 billion plus dollars?  I would argue NO.  The quantum of expenditure versus the increment of improvement is skewed off the chart.   Congestion in south Charlotte particularly along I-77 (add to it the southern leg of I-285 which will reach the same conditions in just a few years) has been baked into the DNA of this part of the City.   The ingredients for the failure were put into place decades ago, and the recipe for disaster fully cooked into existence since before 2000.  There is no "fixing it".  One can only apply corrective measures "off line" so to speak to improve other parts of the metro area so the percentage of those who have to live the I-77 experience daily, is reduced in relation to the overall population of the region.  Eventually, the traffic volume finds an equilibrium based on tolerance levels.  Typically highways like I-77, unimproved max out at 180,000 to 250,000 trips a day.  Improved ones can reach 300,000 plus per day.   Places that go all in and drink the cool aide handed out by their respective DOT's have Frankenstein highways with crazy widths and carry up to just under 500,000 per day.  A completely ridiculous and meaningless statistic, because like a gas....traffic volumes "expand" to fill the number of lanes provided.   Build a 50 land highway in a big city and you'll theoretically generate a million trips a day, but the curious thing transportation engineers avoid talking about either because if they do it only validates that everything they do is unhelpful, or they really don't understand what they do in the first place; is that unlike a gas, people have minds and eventually change behavior in response to discomfort and pain.  I think it best to keep the pain of I-77 at the 180,000 to 250,000 level.   Four billion can be spent on other more impactful and equitable forms of transportation.....like, say....transit.   Expensive, yes, but with a quantum of improvement is off the chart in comparison to highway/interstate widening.   If the State DOT had invested with the City of Charlotte, the money spent on building the outerbelt and all the upgrades required on this never ending road project, with the money proposed for widening I-77, both north and south, (a total of 6 billion at least) the City would have a full transit network by now.  And, by full, I mean every colored line and then some built/planned to date by CATs.   We'd also have the capacity to build high speed rail service between Raleigh and Charlotte today.  

Imagine that world.  

 

 

[KJHburg]

From the OHIO DOT but applies here for sure I think we can agree.

 

""With construction you may see lanes closed ahead. Use the zipper merge at these points to benefit all drivers. 
Zipper merges can ease congestion & shorten backups by 40%, delaying congestion by 14 minutes & cutting the line of cars by over 1/3 of a mile!
Take turns at the merge!""

[nicholas]

That is fine if traffic is already mostly at a standstill, but if the open lane(s) can continue to serve the volume of traffic then people need to merge in a manner that lets traffic keep moving.  A lot of drivers aren't courteous enough to let others zipper merge at the end of a lane.

I am continually astounded by the number of people who drive around with their phone in hand.  Especially newer cars that have Bluetooth and navigation.  A couple days ago I passed three pretty new cars back to back to back on Graham St that were all driving below the speed limit and all piloted by people playing on their phones.  Obviously each car was an automatic which I do not think people should be allowed to drive except in the case of physical necessity.

[rancenc]

NCDOT is beginning public hearings on the proposed Wadesboro bypass on Highway 74

https://www.thesnaponline.com/2024/05/04/regional-public-meeting-set-for-proposed-wadesboro-bypass/

[cowboy_wilhelm]

NCDOT deploys the "dynamic zipper merge" as part of the transportation management plans for some of their construction projects.

"USE BOTH LANES TO MERGE POINT"
"MERGE HERE TAKE TURNS"

Edited May 5 by cowboy_wilhelm

[DCMetroRaleigh]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:04 PM, rancenc said:

NCDOT is beginning public hearings on the proposed Wadesboro bypass on Highway 74

https://www.thesnaponline.com/2024/05/04/regional-public-meeting-set-for-proposed-wadesboro-bypass/

I think I’ll comment. It makes no sense to end it on the east short of Lilesville, when it could easily connect to the new Rockingham Bypass a few miles farther east as a continuous freeway through most of Anson.

Edited May 6 by DCMetroRaleigh

[nicholas]

11 hours ago, DCMetroRaleigh said:

I think I’ll comment. It makes no sense to end it on the east short of Lilesville, when it could easily connect to the new Rockingham Bypass a few miles farther east as a continuous freeway through most of Anson.

It looks like there are a pretty minimal number of driveways and intersection on US 74 between Lilesville and the Rockingham Bypass.  Seems like it would be more cost-effective to just upgrade that existing section to interstate standards.

[kayman]

https://www.theassemblync.com/politics/nc-bike-lanes-sidewalks-sti-strategic-transportation-investments-law/

An article on the overt stupidity behind the STI Law and why it needs to end now. This is why you all should have all that smoke for NCDOT and the GOP-led North Carolina General Assembly on why things are so effed up with transportation planning, implementation, investment funding,  and regional allocations of improvements.

No coping out on, "what I can do about it?" You can contact and continue to contact your state legislative representation in both houses of NCGA, & if they don't respond then support their opponents this November or in November 2026.

 

Edited May 7 by kayman

[Norm2]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

https://www.theassemblync.com/politics/nc-bike-lanes-sidewalks-sti-strategic-transportation-investments-law/

An article on the overt stupidity behind the STI Law and why it needs to end now. This is why you all should have all that smoke for NCDOT and the GOP-led North Carolina General Assembly on why things are so effed up with transportation planning, implementation, investment funding,  and regional allocations of improvements.

No coping out on, "what I can do about it?" You can contact and continue to contact your state legislative representation in both houses of NCGA, & if they don't respond then support their opponents this November or in November 2026.

 

Almost every single state-owned road should have sidewalk access, unless it is truly a rural road. These state laws blow my mind.....

[nicholas]

I was absolutely astounded last night to see that construction on Sugar Creek Rd between N Tryon and the Blue Line seems to have wrapped up.  No construction signs, traffic cones, anything like that.  All lanes now open on Sugar Creek.

[tarhoosier]

Now do McDowell Street

[KJHburg]

Traffic congestion is different out here in southern Stanly County between Oakboro and Cottonville.   

[tozmervo]

20 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Traffic congestion is different out here in southern Stanly County between Oakboro and Cottonville.   

You can just drive under him.

[Professor]

On 5/1/2024 at 1:32 PM, KJHburg said:

From the OHIO DOT but applies here for sure I think we can agree.

 

""With construction you may see lanes closed ahead. Use the zipper merge at these points to benefit all drivers. 
Zipper merges can ease congestion & shorten backups by 40%, delaying congestion by 14 minutes & cutting the line of cars by over 1/3 of a mile!
Take turns at the merge!""

The zipper merge system is a disaster. Rude drivers depend on someone letting them in and on highways, it takes semi drivers to block the left lane to stop the bottlenecks caused by the "zipper merge".  This was a recent issue on South Boulevard with lane closures. 

[KJHburg]

from various sources including a Canadian video but is totally applicable to the US

 

[KJHburg]

I-485 express ramps construction today.  You can see what is happening in the map in the link.  Basically there will be an on and off ramp to the 485 express lanes coming and going from the I-77 or west direction.

2019-map-4-i-485-johnston-road.pdf (ncdot.gov)

 

In other news up in Raleigh and Wake County the NC 540 tollway project is holding 540 Fest before the grand opening on the southern side of the 540 Beltway.  For those who like running or biking on a 6 lane expressway here is your chance and just one week after the UP downtown Raleigh walking tour so no conflict.  

540 Fest in Raleigh, NC - Details, Registration, and Results | ITS YOUR RACE

 

Triangle Expressway | 540 Fest run, walk planned ahead of new North Carolina highway opening for drivers - ABC11 Raleigh-Durham