Westin on Lower Broad

[doormanpoet]

If the Westin does not go through, 100's of millions of dollars will leave the city with it. Why is Tony allowed to build his tower and the Westin Developer may not be able too?

[bnaflyer]

Anne Roberts and her ilk remind me of the old Ira North days in Madison. He was the pastor of the Madison Church of Christ and he fought and succeded in blocking and stoping every need of infrastructure, development, and job growth if he felt it was not morally in line with his Christian based views in his eyes. Madison almost became a bombed out Iraq, and when he died, things started to change. I have friends that grew up in his conservatism and we are lucky Madison is not a Bedford Styversant in NYC or a South Central inL.A.

Sam Ridley in Smyrna ran a Kim Jon Ill regime in Smyrna for many years until he died.

Small minded thinking has almost crippled this city, and Anne Roberts seems to want to further that legacy.

Build the thing and lets move on with it!

This a pretty silly, and offensive, thing to say. As one of Anne Roberts' "ilk" I don't appreciate being compared to some strange preacher in Madison or Sam Ridley or Kim Jong Il, for that matter. Why do you have to personalize this whole debate into one "evil" person--Anne Roberts? Why do you have to say such mean-spirited things about people who disagree with you?

I don't want to block every infrastructure or development. And I don't think I'm "small minded" either. In fact, I think people who don't want to reflect on what makes our city unique are pretty small minded. Anne Roberts and "and her ilk" are people who care about Nashville just like you do and who sincerely disagree with you over this issue. That doesn't make us analagous to a murderous North Korean dictator.

But I think I'm checking out of this debate because, like so much political discourse in the country today, it's just degenerated into personal attacks.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Anne Roberts and her ilk remind me of the old Ira North days in Madison. He was the pastor of the Madison Church of Christ and he fought and succeded in blocking and stoping every need of infrastructure, development, and job growth if he felt it was not morally in line with his Christian based views in his eyes. Madison almost became a bombed out Iraq, and when he died, things started to change. I have friends that grew up in his conservatism and we are lucky Madison is not a Bedford Styversant in NYC or a South Central inL.A.

Sam Ridley in Smyrna ran a Kim Jon Ill regime in Smyrna for many years until he died.

Small minded thinking has almost crippled this city, and Anne Roberts seems to want to further that legacy.

Build the thing and lets move on with it!

C'mon, John, Anne Roberts and Conservative ministers turning neighborhoods into third-world slums ? Sam Ridley as Kim Jong Il ? I'm quite sure the residents of Smyrna were not reduced to cannibalism. I appreciate your boosterism, but this rhetorical hyperbole is a bit much, don't you think ?

[LA_TN]

Anne Roberts and her ilk remind me of the old Ira North days in Madison. He was the pastor of the Madison Church of Christ and he fought and succeded in blocking and stoping every need of infrastructure, development, and job growth if he felt it was not morally in line with his Christian based views in his eyes. Madison almost became a bombed out Iraq, and when he died, things started to change. I have friends that grew up in his conservatism and we are lucky Madison is not a Bedford Styversant in NYC or a South Central inL.A.

Sam Ridley in Smyrna ran a Kim Jon Ill regime in Smyrna for many years until he died.

Small minded thinking has almost crippled this city, and Anne Roberts seems to want to further that legacy.

Build the thing and lets move on with it!

This was before my time, but isn't Sam Ridley credited for bringing Nissan? If so, we all know Nissan started the snowball effect that has made Smyrna into the 'city' it is today. Not saying it's perfect, but has grown a lot in < 10 yrs.

NB is on the same plane as me; if reasonable - build it. As I had stated all along. Much better than coffee shops full of deadbeats

[jice]

^ hah... what kinda coffee shops you been goin to? Sorry... found that funny... but I know what ya mean

[downtown cliff]

Anne Roberts and her ilk remind me of the old Ira North days in Madison. He was the pastor of the Madison Church of Christ and he fought and succeded in blocking and stoping every need of infrastructure, development, and job growth if he felt it was not morally in line with his Christian based views in his eyes. Madison almost became a bombed out Iraq, and when he died, things started to change. I have friends that grew up in his conservatism and we are lucky Madison is not a Bedford Styversant in NYC or a South Central inL.A.

Sam Ridley in Smyrna ran a Kim Jon Ill regime in Smyrna for many years until he died.

Small minded thinking has almost crippled this city, and Anne Roberts seems to want to further that legacy.

Build the thing and lets move on with it!

This is why I seldom post on UP anymore. I'm not going to resort to name-calling, but I am disappointed in your inconsistency, dmp. When it is a question of whether or not the WES is appropriate, you are all about appropriate heights and the relationship of buildings to their street and environs; when others voice similar concerns about a high rise a quarter of a block behind Nashville's signature historic district, we are small-minded. Does all logic go out the door when the develpment in question is a hotel?

BTW, I have had the opportunity to speak with Ms. Roberts about the Westin. She had genuine, well thought out concerns about the project and how it would affect Nashville's future. Whether you agree with her or not, I guarantee you she is a smart cookie.

I don't understand why some folks insist on framing this as an either or issue: ugly Trail West facade or a Westin. I believe the better option is to renovate the Trail West building as well as the Richards and Richards building behind it. The Westin is welcome, just not by me in the spot where they want to put it. Oh, and Hankster, don't count your high-rises in SoBro before they hatch. The shorty resistance lives on.

[Guest]

DCliff

Good to hear from you again. I have lurked at NC, you guys have some good threads.

i agree that name Calling should be discouraged as I welcome all points of view, but I expect them to be logical and be defensible. I will not address the DMP issue as he is more than capable of answering any questions directed at his comments.

I do disagree that this is not an either or situation with the Westin. Now if we had two or three competing proposals for the location in question that would not be the case. There have been several references to the alternatives but it is all pie in the sky. I have only been here a year but these buildings look to have been is disrepair for a decade or longer. As far as I know the current choice is EITHER we leave the block as is with the surface parking and nondiscript (or ugly you choose) buildings OR we work with the current Westin proposal and try to make it cash flow and work in the historic setting.

The future of Sobro will be interesting. As I see the lines being formed you have the developers, the majority of the land owners and the 'tallies' (is that a word ) that want limited height restrictions vs. some industry professionals, activist groups, and 'shorties'. I wish the best of luck to both groups because I love the interest in a part of Nashville that was off the radar only a decade ago.

[chris holman]

I guess we must ask our self will most of us or the city feel any loss if the building was tore down to build a Westin? NO, will probably be the feeling most of us will have.

You can tell when you look at the buildings on the proposed site, that during the time when those building's were constructed that they were possibly built quickly to serve the purpose at the time with no concept of good design.

Unlike the buildings on Second Ave. with the beautiful faces and arched window. These buildings don't come remotely close to the level of beauty and history of the other buildings in the area that's even worth keeping or preserving.

If there was a building as beautiful as Bennie Dillon on the site we will probably all agree to shoot down the Westin project.

[it's just dave]

Just a side note, but no seems to think about the fact that the west side of 2nd Avenue used to look like the east side. A few decades ago, the Victorian fronts were sheared off about 30 feet to accomodate "modern" vehicle traffic. There were no cars in the 1870s, so the streets were pretty narrow.

Just a little factoid when lamenting the loss of some structures. Many things we see in the old pictures were torn down decades and decades ago. Urban redevelopment is nothing new and sometimes it's just necessary.

[downtown cliff]

I do disagree that this is not an either or situation with the Westin. Now if we had two or three competing proposals for the location in question that would not be the case. There have been several references to the alternatives but it is all pie in the sky. I have only been here a year but these buildings look to have been is disrepair for a decade or longer. As far as I know the current choice is EITHER we leave the block as is with the surface parking and nondiscript (or ugly you choose) buildings OR we work with the current Westin proposal and try to make it cash flow and work in the historic setting.

NB,

I understand your point, but the same argument was made in the 70s for tearing down the row of buildings along 2nd Avenue. Imagine if that travesty had come to pass (pull out your copy of the Plan of Nashville and look at the sterile artist rendering of the proposed Central Loop Plan). At the rate that buildings are being renovated downtown, I can't imagine there will not be interest in these buildings soon. The mere fact that the Westin is interested in the site, shows that it is a good location. Lots of buildings that have been neglected for decades are finally getting the work and respect they deserve.

Chris,

As far as the artistic worth of the buildings, it is hard to judge the Trail West because of the barn cladding garbage. From what shows, it looks like good classic lines, just like the R&R. The R&R is beautiful in its clean simplicity. Not every building needs to have arches, scrolls, gargoyles, cherubs, etc. to be of value. For example, the 320 Broadway Lofts building, a good clean building with some simple decorative effects around the windows:

320 Broadway

[NewTowner]

I guess we must ask our self will most of us or the city feel any loss if the building was tore down to build a Westin? NO, will probably be the feeling most of us will have.

You can tell when you look at the buildings on the proposed site, that during the time when those building's were constructed that they were possibly built quickly to serve the purpose at the time with no concept of good design.

Unlike the buildings on Second Ave. with the beautiful faces and arched window. These buildings don't come remotely close to the level of beauty and history of the other buildings in the area that's even worth keeping or preserving.

If there was a building as beautiful as Bennie Dillon on the site we will probably all agree to shoot down the Westin project.

You are right to assert that the buildings slated for demolition, should this project be approved, are not exactly beautiful. This is not only a correct statement, but it is also a completely pertinent and valid point to make in this debate...in my opinion, one of the few rational points that has been made in favor of the Westin. But the next logical question--namely, will the structure that (in part) replaces these buildings be, in fact, beautiful, has not yet reared its critical head. Where has it been? It is, after all, the most important question of all!

I propose that no one has bothered asking it because the answer is obvious. No one who has seen the renderings for the proposed hotel has argued that it would be beautiful, because they know it would not be. Obviously, neither the developer nor the architect intends for this building to be beautiful. Useful and well-built, maybe, but certainly not beautiful. Devoid of beauty, it would also fail to be a decorous and relevant contributor the civic realm. It will be a failure as architecture by our most humble standards...and quite a large one.

So, in the end, what we have is a real Tennessee Pickle: some small, ugly buildings are slated for demolition so that we might erect a large, ugly building. Now, this is not the kind of choice I get up in the morning hoping to encounter, nor is it the kind of choice I enjoy mulling over before I lay me down. But since beauty is clearly devoid from the entire scene, our choice has clearly come down to a decision between small ugly and big ugly, and the relative amounts of money generated by both.

Personally, I think Lower Broadway is not very well served by the sad little buildings in question--but they are human-scaled, somewhat historic, and could concievably be made beautiful with some maintanence and a little sprucing. The gigantic Westin, while it is not totally wrong (and is, in fact, unusually right for a mega-structure) is not necessarily more deficient than the little buildings, but it would be much harder to fix, given its incredible scale and impossibly stupid glassy fa

[barakat]

It would be interesting to see other proposals, from other developers, for the same block. Too bad it can't be more of a competition. I bet we would see much more thoughtful proposals than the Westin. Since there are no other proposals, I kinda support this project. It is a good place for a hotel, and downtown desperately needs new kinds of retail. An 8-story, embellished, non-glass box would be nice, eh, NewTowner?

[chris holman]

There does need to be more up close details on the Westin project and possibly several design elements, To the lower portion and the upper portion of the tower to way all the options for the look of the building.

I'm petty sure there working on that as we speak.

Since the look and feel of Broadway is a very important to the city. I just hope this project gets built.

[Guest]

DCliff

We are not as far apart as it seems. It seems that I subscribe a bit more to the old adage "a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush"

NTowner

Glad to hear from you. I have been reading of your exploits while I lurk at NC. Congrats on your graduation!

I am not in love with the design of the Westin but I think it is made increasingly unpalatable by the juxtapostioning of the historic facades. I much prefer a design that compliments such as the historic Westin San Francisco but once again I do not see a competing proposal. So the choice in my mind become a know (Westin) vs. an unknown (some future potential development that may or may not even be an improvement).

[frankliner]

NewTowner, I usually agree with your views, however I do not believe that the most important issue here is beauty, it is in fact scale. On the corner of 2 of the few streets (2nd and Broadway) we have managed to largely maintain a human-scaled built environment, we are talking about placing a high-rise. Does it really make any sense to interrupt both of these environments for a project that can be duplicated on just about any corner of SoBro or the Gulch? We have seen numerous inquiries lately for new upscale-centered hotels (SigTower needs one, the W, Intercontinental) so why interrupt a human-scaled DT corner for a product that is being shopped in many other locations? Again, I would love to see this project happen, just not at this location.

[NewTowner]

NewTowner, I usually agree with your views, however I do not believe that the most important issue here is beauty, it is in fact scale. On the corner of 2 of the few streets (2nd and Broadway) we have managed to largely maintain a human-scaled built environment, we are talking about placing a high-rise. Does it really make any sense to interrupt both of these environments for a project that can be duplicated on just about any corner of SoBro or the Gulch? We have seen numerous inquiries lately for new upscale-centered hotels (SigTower needs one, the W, Intercontinental) so why interrupt a human-scaled DT corner for a product that is being shopped in many other locations? Again, I would love to see this project happen, just not at this location.

But I am against this project! (??)

...and if scale is not the part and the whole of beauty, I do not know what is. The human scale is arguably the starting point for all classical beauty--Man is the Measure, as the Renaissance "discovery" of perspective in both art and architecture claims, and as the Vitruvian Man as described by Vitruvius and illustrated by Da Vinci attests. The world, as seen by our eyes, is full of hints and poetry...beauty must be seen to be experienced, and building on the human scale is nothing more or less than the Art of Being Seen.

After the human scale is achieved, then the message must be delivered. The Westin will be nearly impossible to see to the human eye, from a distance useful to the human body. What will its aloof and muted voice tell us, assuming we can hear it at all? Considerably less, no doubt, than the accessible and approachable buildings which currently stand on its proposed site--assuming we can repair and beautify them.

[frankliner]

Sorry NT, I just differ in approach, not the end position. I guess scale is inherently connected to the idea of beauty (darn classicists) but I was always told to approach them (scale and beauty) as different issues. So I was trying to point out that I feel emphasizing scale specifically is more useful in this arguement that a more "wholistic" beauty. Different approaches but same end result, build it elsewhere!

[NewTowner]

Sorry NT, I just differ in approach, not the end position. I guess scale is inherently connected to the idea of beauty (darn classicists) but I was always told to approach them (scale and beauty) as different issues. So I was trying to point out that I feel emphasizing scale specifically is more useful in this arguement that a more "wholistic" beauty. Different approaches but same end result, build it elsewhere!

Scale certainly appears to be the most urgent (and obvious) issue to me, as well. I am sure that if we tried to break our approaches down to their simplest possible elements, we would find that we agree on quite a lot--in regards to the proposed Westin, and many other things.

To restate, I would just hate to see several salvagable buildings replaced by a big non-salvagable one. But I can definitely agree with the pro-Westin crowd that a lot of work that needs to be done on Lower Broadway. I am not a sucker for the picturesque "rundown shack"--I think country music can and should go down in places of dignity and loveliness, as it did back in the Ryman days. Everyone can agree that the Trail West fa

[doormanpoet]

Sorry, I edited the post. I am taking a break. I am overworked and burned out. Time to spend time bowling, hiking, and spending time with the snakes in my collection. I owe an apology, but the naysayers in this city have me frustrated. Everytime there is a new development announced, some person or group of persons come out to oppose it like the Sounds Stadium, Tony getting TIF, The Titans Stadium, and back in the day the Gaylord Entertainment Center and many other projects.

Yes, I have been vocal about WES only because I don't want to see large towers on West End and have us become an Atlanta with 400 foot buildings built out to Belle Meade.

It was late and I was angry at Anne (and some other people) for being another person yet opposed to another project to benefit the city. The buildings on Lower Broadway can easily be replicated, the brick can even be reused. She did nothing to my knowledge to prevent Tony from tearing down the Sudakem building which CANNOT be replaced. There seemed to be no effort to protect the Jacksonian or the Corinthian Lodge which architectually benefitted the city more than a couple of buildings on Lower Broadway.

Yes, I am upset with Alex Palmer for tearing down the Corinthian Lodge for his yet to be built project.

I wish Tony had used another lot instead of killing the Sudakem Building.

FYI, please research the potential employers and developments that Ira North, Sam Ridley, and even Beverly Briley kept out of the city. (For those of us who have lived her for more than 40 years I can personally attest that several churches lead by very zealous ministers have stopped a lot of development. That is not anti Christian, but truth. Look at the voting records for certain demographics on certain development issues.)

I apologize for the Kim Jon Ill comment, but Sam had a reputation for strict iron clad rule for many years until he finally loosened up for Nissan. (That can also be verified by a couple of google searches for old stories in the Nashville Banner and the Nashville Tennessean)

I am taking a break. I'll let the development Gods do what they have to do, and I'll let the MDHA and the Historical Commission fight for what they have to fight for.

In reality, it really does not matter to me. I have no control over the development in the city, and things will get done with or without my commentary. I am not buying one of the condo's, I am not staying in the Westin, and I am not a baseball fan so I probably won't go to a Sounds game, but it is fun watching the city grow.

Peace,

John the Doorman.

[LA_TN]

Understandable, we all get frustrated from time to time...

[Hankster]

I hope your break is a short. You contribute a tremendous amount to this forum and I look forward to reading more of your posts!

[smeagolsfree]

I feel your pain John. I get the same way from time to time and have to take a few days off. For me thats about all I need.

[prguy]

First, let me say I am a public relations professional who has been engaged to help the developers of the proposed Westin communicate their plans to the public. I have read this thread with great interest, and appreciate the comments from all sides.

I am sure all of you know, but there are a couple of meetings this Wednesday where the developers will present the plans-to-date and take questions and comments.

The first is a meeting hosted by the Downtown Partnership. It starts at 11:30 a.m. Judging from the quality of the discourse in this thread, I rather imagine some (if not many) of you are members of the DP. If not, I'll bet you could email Tom Turner and get in.

The second is the Urban Design Forum, and it starts at 5:30 at the Nashville Civic Design Center at 138 2nd Avenue North, Suite 106.

[Richard Lawson]

First, let me say I am a public relations professional who has been engaged to help the developers of the proposed Westin communicate their plans to the public. I have read this thread with great interest, and appreciate the comments from all sides.

I am sure all of you know, but there are a couple of meetings this Wednesday where the developers will present the plans-to-date and take questions and comments.

The first is a meeting hosted by the Downtown Partnership. It starts at 11:30 a.m. Judging from the quality of the discourse in this thread, I rather imagine some (if not many) of you are members of the DP. If not, I'll bet you could email Tom Turner and get in.

The second is the Urban Design Forum, and it starts at 5:30 at the Nashville Civic Design Center at 138 2nd Avenue North, Suite 106.

I thought the PR guys were banned from this forum

[prguy]

I thought the PR guys were banned from this forum

Hey Richard:

If I'm out of bounds, I'll certainly stand aside. But, I thought posting meetings would be ok.

keith miles