210 Trade | EpiCentre

[Charlotte_native]

One thing to consider with the "renderings mystery" is this: even small projects have changes. Many drawings are done at initial, and even further along, stages of development. Architects and designers will put out conceptual pieces to demonstrate ideas that might or might not be accepted by the developer in the long run, but are used to show potential investors, tenants, and the developers themselves. In the past these would be filed along with all the other changes that take place from concept to building.

The internet, blogs, and forums like this don't "change" the historical posts, so these initial drawings remain "out there" like we have here. I am not defending nor criticizing this, but I think the confusion might be coming from something that is pretty simple.

One example: the huge Mellow Mushroom in Noda -- the original "plans" show a huge statue of George Washington holding a pizza over his head right on the corner of 36th and North Davidson. Obviously that didn't happen, nor did the streetside seating and many other fanciful ideas. It was the conceptual design and parts of the ideas were nixed due to approval by the city or design changes that occured between initial drawings and issued permits.

Another, the Park Avenue Plaza building original drawings had 5 stories and balconies that were twice as large as those that are actually being built. The developer cut back because the cost for those two things could not be recouped with the sale of the units. No trickery or anything shady, but drawings exist of the original building. Had they been posted some might be questioning "why some many various renderings? Are we being duped? What is going on?" Nothing is going on, things change.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Charlotte_native

[AuLukey]

Nothing is going on, things change.

I agree, I don't get why people are even debating the reasons for the change in renderings. It happens.

[uptownliving]

For those on here that are calling Epicentre just another mall....or CityFair II...what would have to change in the Epicentre design for you to not consider it a mall?

[monsoon]

Ahh so everyone must now be in agreement the current information indicated the design basically sucks from a standpoint of bringing life to the street. I make this statemet since the conversation has now moved to "Oh this can't be the final design, surely they wouldn't do something as bad as this". Well there is no rebuttal against that except I suggest that one go and look at all of the great street level architecture that we have in town now. The signs are are all there this is going to be more of the same.

[A2]

Rumors are swirling around the commerical real estate community these days about Epicentre and Ghazi. I heard yesterday that construction had slowed due to one very important reason: bills aren't being paid. It was from a reliable source, but I still don't want it to be true.

Is this piece of land an ancient burial ground and everything that goes there destined to fail?

I really, really, really,really, really, really hope this is not true MC, but I would not doubt it. I keep thinking they will build the Epicenter (as well as the base for 210), but hold off on the tower. I keep feeling this and don't know why. Call it a gut instinct. I really don't want my gut being right though .

A2

[MZT]

I agree with A2. The buyer frenzy we saw for 210 a few months ago may have been the last hurrah for the pre-construction condo flippers.

But The Epicenter is one thing I really do want to see completed. Ghazi has a lot on his plate... how are the others coming?

Edited September 8, 2006 by MZT

[monsoon]

Ghazi has a lot on his plate...

Indeed. The Huntersville paper yesterday says Ghazi's 80,000 sq ft retail complex in Huntersville is still a go and should break ground soon. I wonder if he is trying to sell space to retailers for this chain that are hesitant to go into the epicenter?

[ChiefJoJo]

Isn't the "Epicenter" the same as "210 Trade" or is 210 just the condo portion and Epicenter the retail portion?

Does the design not bring life to the street? Does the retail not face 4th street, College, and Trade?

One problem with retail could be the grade down from College Street--it's quite steep, and might be difficult to have significant street level uses.

[dubone]

"Epicenter" is the word for the origin of an earthquake. "210 East Trade" is the address of the project. But "210 Trade" is the brand of the condo tower and "EpiCentre" is the brand for the retail development that some hate and some love. "aloft" is the brand of the hotel going over "EpiCentre".

[sleightofhand]

Rumors are swirling around the commerical real estate community these days about Epicentre and Ghazi. I heard yesterday that construction had slowed due to one very important reason: bills aren't being paid. It was from a reliable source, but I still don't want it to be true.

Is this piece of land an ancient burial ground and everything that goes there destined to fail?

I heard something similar the other day from a very good source. Apparently the 210 Trade portion of the project is going to cost a considerable amount more than they thought. A good number of Allen Tate agents that purchased and sold the building aren't very happy.

I do have faith in Ghazi to get things worked out however.

[Charlotte_native]

I heard something similar the other day from a very good source. Apparently the 210 Trade portion of the project is going to cost a considerable amount more than they thought. A good number of Allen Tate agents that purchased and sold the building aren't very happy.

I do have faith in Ghazi to get things worked out however.

From a soon-to-be-tenant there have been some delays due to about 10% cost overruns that are being worked out. For a project this large that isn't unusual. They also still have not done final leases, from the developers end, and tenants are waiting to get signed up with final contracts.

Why would people buying at 210 be upset if the building costs more? They shouldn't have to pay the difference unless there is something really odd in their contracts that lets the price rise from that which they signed up for.

[atlrvr]

I think they are upset because they can't force Flaherty & Collins to build the thing....they can simply release everyone fron their contracts and release a new product, or sell their air rights.

I'm pretty sure that I've posted, or at least I know that I've told people, IF 210 gets built, it is going to be of considerable less quality that what is being pitched....whether that includes interior upfits, or common spaces, or both....contract/schomtract, F&C will deliver a below-promised product, and either risk lawsuits from tenants, or simply refund deposits plus average CD yeild, or people will such it up and deal with it.......or it won't get built as proposed.

It was clear from the beginning that they were underpricing this based on contruction cost trends, and I know for a fact that at least one consultant told F&C they were crazy on various points including:

- Not having a local development contact. They are trying to develop this thing out of Indianapolis.

- They listed units $50/psf lower than was advised, because they thought the initial sales volume was more important, rather than the Vue which has taken the steady higher cost route. This backfired on 210 Trade because even with price bumps, they still sold out "too quick" to allow for appropriate price increases relative to construction cost rises.

- The hired Allen Tate to market this. No offense to Allen Tate BSI, but why would you trust selling out a $150M tower to a real estate company that has never marketed a high-rise. As I've heard, there was a lot of funny business here too, as I believe a lot of units got sold pre-pre-construction that negated some price bumps. Also, they are playing funny business with investor units, by suggesting to buyers NOT to buy as an investor to save the downpayment, and gamble that the HOA wouldn't crack down on the 20% cap.....BAD MOVE THAT IS GOING TO RESULT IN A LAWSUIT!

Like I said. I know for a fact that these three issues were addressed, and ignored by F&C, and have led directly to the problem they have now.

[Charlotte_native]

I think they are upset because they can't force Flaherty & Collins to build the thing....they can simply release everyone fron their contracts and release a new product, or sell their air rights.

I'm pretty sure that I've posted, or at least I know that I've told people, IF 210 gets built, it is going to be of considerable less quality that what is being pitched....whether that includes interior upfits, or common spaces, or both....contract/schomtract, F&C will deliver a below-promised product, and either risk lawsuits from tenants, or simply refund deposits plus average CD yeild, or people will such it up and deal with it.......or it won't get built as proposed.

It was clear from the beginning that they were underpricing this based on contruction cost trends, and I know for a fact that at least one consultant told F&C they were crazy on various points including:

- Not having a local development contact. They are trying to develop this thing out of Indianapolis.

- They listed units $50/psf lower than was advised, because they thought the initial sales volume was more important, rather than the Vue which has taken the steady higher cost route. This backfired on 210 Trade because even with price bumps, they still sold out "too quick" to allow for appropriate price increases relative to construction cost rises.

- The hired Allen Tate to market this. No offense to Allen Tate BSI, but why would you trust selling out a $150M tower to a real estate company that has never marketed a high-rise. As I've heard, there was a lot of funny business here too, as I believe a lot of units got sold pre-pre-construction that negated some price bumps. Also, they are playing funny business with investor units, by suggesting to buyers NOT to buy as an investor to save the downpayment, and gamble that the HOA wouldn't crack down on the 20% cap.....BAD MOVE THAT IS GOING TO RESULT IN A LAWSUIT!

Like I said. I know for a fact that these three issues were addressed, and ignored by F&C, and have led directly to the problem they have now.

Wow. I had no idea. That is rough. The only part I did hear about was the issues that arose from hiring a company that sells single family suburban homes to market this, but the other issues seem like a mess. I hope this isn't all true and it all works out. They will certainly be setting themselves up for lawsuits if they build a "lessor" building than promised, not to suggest it is outright untrue, but that just seems foolish.

[monsoon]

I think they are upset because they can't force Flaherty & Collins to build the thing....they can simply release everyone fron their contracts and release a new product, or sell their air rights.

I'm pretty sure that I've posted, or at least I know that I've told people, IF 210 gets built, it is going to be of considerable less quality that what is being pitched....whether that includes interior upfits, or common spaces, or both....contract/schomtract, F&C will deliver a below-promised product, and either risk lawsuits from tenants, or simply refund deposits plus average CD yeild, or people will such it up and deal with it.......or it won't get built as proposed.

It was clear from the beginning that they were underpricing this based on contruction cost trends, and I know for a fact that at least one consultant told F&C they were crazy on various points including:

- Not having a local development contact. They are trying to develop this thing out of Indianapolis.

- They listed units $50/psf lower than was advised, because they thought the initial sales volume was more important, rather than the Vue which has taken the steady higher cost route. This backfired on 210 Trade because even with price bumps, they still sold out "too quick" to allow for appropriate price increases relative to construction cost rises.

- The hired Allen Tate to market this. No offense to Allen Tate BSI, but why would you trust selling out a $150M tower to a real estate company that has never marketed a high-rise. As I've heard, there was a lot of funny business here too, as I believe a lot of units got sold pre-pre-construction that negated some price bumps. Also, they are playing funny business with investor units, by suggesting to buyers NOT to buy as an investor to save the downpayment, and gamble that the HOA wouldn't crack down on the 20% cap.....BAD MOVE THAT IS GOING TO RESULT IN A LAWSUIT!

Like I said. I know for a fact that these three issues were addressed, and ignored by F&C, and have led directly to the problem they have now.

Wow

This is a quite a revelation and I don't think you have posted it here before. Now that the cat is out of the bag I think that sound that I keep hearing are people fainting to the floor.

[dubone]

How could they get costs so wrong?

I had stopped being skeptical about the project once sales were going so strong, but this is now quite a shocker. With the rumors on the risks of the project, I had doubted Ghazi, but still didn't doubt the residential tower.

I think I agree with Sleight. Ghazi is certain to iron out the problems, although perhaps with some delays. But having sold a tower without enough revenue to cover costs is probably not something that can be overcome.

[monsoon]

.....I think I agree with Sleight. Ghazi is certain to iron out the problems, although perhaps with some delays. But having sold a tower without enough revenue to cover costs is probably not something that can be overcome.

The kicker to that, is that I can't imagine a bank handing out a construction loan for the tower if that is the case. They tend to avoid deals like that.

[uptownliving]

The only way that Ghazi could iron this out would be to purchase the air rights they sold to F&C.

Hopefully all of this will be ironed out by F&C. Otherwise Allen Tate's reputation in this town will go straight to the toilet.

Edited September 13, 2006 by uptownliving

[atlrvr]

How could they get costs so wrong?

I had stopped being skeptical about the project once sales were going so strong, but this is now quite a shocker. With the rumors on the risks of the project, I had doubted Ghazi, but still didn't doubt the residential tower.

I think I agree with Sleight. Ghazi is certain to iron out the problems, although perhaps with some delays. But having sold a tower without enough revenue to cover costs is probably not something that can be overcome.

The problem is F&C specializes in stick-built suburan apartments. This is a different beast, and it seemed way out of their league for a first go at concrete construction....remember, this was originally supposed to be apartments, but they were at least clever enough to figure out that they couldn't make those numbers work. As far as the underpricing, I believe that was at Allen Tate's suggestion, but I'm not positive...I just know that they were advised against it by an outside consultant, and the warning went unheeded.

My speculation (and this part is speculation only) is that F&C will delay the launch of 210 Trade while they rework their plans, figuring what can be cut-out, downgraded, etc., but still pass the smell test. As far as lenders....their are always ways to make things look rosier than they really are.....we'll see. My gut is this will somehow get done( with both Ghazi aned F&C taking a big hit on profits), but there will be lots of lawsuits against lots of parties.

[monsoon]

I am wondering if this party is willing to respond to these comments which no doubt are not as enjoyable to read as the comments that were being posted back in May.

I have really enjoyed reading the different comments on the residential towers in Charlotte. I am the lead developer of 210 Trade and we at Flaherty and Collins look forward to being a part of the Charlotte community with the introduction of our tower. Please take the time to go back to 210trade.com and enjoy the updated web page where you can see what I believe are the best floor plans and amenities in town and where you can tour individual units. It is our desire to develop a building that is sleek and contemporary with timeless architectual appeal that the city of Charlotte will be proud of. I look forward to reading additional comments as the building comes out of the ground.

[MZT]

The Tale of the Towers gets more twisted.... Pete Verna might actually get the last laugh...!

[dxartist]

when it was announced that F&C was to build the tower, I myself was skeptical since they had no experience in constructing highrises. I suppose you could say at this point they bit off more than they could chew. We'll see this pans out

[monsoon]

I wonder if they will cut out an elevator or more? I've seen this done on overly ambitious projects in Myrtle Beach where they simply eliminate an entire elevator shaft and it isn't noticed that much until the people move in and find it is an ordeal if you live on one of the top floors. Is there anything in the Charlotte building code that would prevent a trick such as this?

[sleightofhand]

And to make matters worse I was told they are no longer going to have a movie theater.

Bummer!

[uptownliving]

And to make matters worse I was told they are no longer going to have a movie theater.

Bummer!

That is a bummer...who told you that?

[dubone]

Thanks for the info. I have feeling we are now in for a string of disappointments with this project.

I would not be surprised, now, if cost cutting takes away some nice urban design elements, like the fountains and various other frills. Not like there was any hope that Ghazi would go with quality building materials, but now it is certain to be lowest cost EIFS. I'd imagine he will also not worry about high quality tenants, but just get any one in that'll pay their bills.

Ch-ch-ch-check into cash.

By the way, I'll say this once again, it is vey ironic that the movie theater is pulled, as it was the prospective movie theater tenant that told Ghazi to tear down the civic center. Then the idea of a residential tower, I believe, sealed the deal to tear down the old building. Without the demo costs, and the cost of a new super-structure, the costs would have been much lower. If the condo tower fails, and the movie theater really is pulled, then it is just crazy.