210 Trade | EpiCentre

[Hornet]

What are all of those workmen doing on 210 today? Repossessing their materials?

[Andyc545]

What are all of those workmen doing on 210 today? Repossessing their materials?

It did say that despite the difficulties with 210 Trade, EpiCentre and aLoft will be completed...

[dxartist]

What are all of those workmen doing on 210 today? Repossessing their materials?

It looks like it. If you compare the 8:00am time on the webcam to the 2:58pm, you can definitely see less material.

http://oxblue.com/client/flahertycollins/twotentrade/

This situation appears to be a very long and ugly battle with no resolution in sight. It sure didn't look good when there wasn't any progress for months. Well, I guess it is what it is.

[Hornet]

Yes, the workmen were all over the condo portion of the project in flourescent vests. The first activity I had seen there in months.

[nyxmike]

News14 has a story about how the Epicenter bars might have to shut down. The article says the lawsuit could shut down the entire project. I will be SO angry if that happens. They also mention that the establishments there need to renew a permit which expires Monday.

http://news14.com/content/top_stories/5969...rs/Default.aspx

Edited June 26, 2008 by nyxmike

[ontap]

Why were the nightclubs issued temporary occupancy permits? Is it a life & safety issue or is it related to zoning and the lawsuits? If it's just a technicality I say renew, but if it has to do with safety they shouldn't renew until everything is resolved. This issue has the potential to put these places out of business permanently. Are other tenants still working on their upfits or has everything come to a standstill on the site?

[atlrvr]

I believe it is due to the non-compliant ownership structure for the site....not safety related, necessarily, but it would be more of a liability issue and the desire for clarity.

If they get revoked (which I doubt will happen), then Ghazi is going to have big time problems.

[dubone]

The more I read about this conflict, the more I sympathize with Ghazi. I am sure there is way more to it all that what we can understand from the news articles, but I really do buy his argument that he is the scapegoat for the economic conditions that caused the project to stall.

I suppose time will tell, but this is very serious threat to shut down the entire project until the issue is resolved.

[palmetto75]

I would personally be shocked if any of the currently open establishments were closed down by the city. CCCP will be lobbying the city heavily to ensure this won't happen. It could even be a small but rather embarassing black eye for our aspiring governor.

[monsoon]

This may be an issue that goes beyond city govt.

[voyager12]

From what I hear there was never any good faith or trust from either side. I hope this mess can be settled promptly. If it drags on Epicentre will get tagged with a white elephant rep, a failure, especially if current tenants have to close. We don't need that.

[dubone]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if tensions ran deep enough by late last year that Ghazi was protecting himself from Flaherty people. Do remember when he was getting threatened last year?

It already is an issue that goes beyond the city. The federal courts are the ones that are likely going to making a lot of these decisions at this point. Obviously, the county will still do what it can within its rules to either continue temporary occupancy certificates, etc., but it could get very ugly very fast.

[GreenvilleSucks]

Epicentre tenants will be able to remain open at least through September 15th of this year with renewal of temporary certificates: http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte...23/daily43.html

[monsoon]

I should imagine this is going to put a damper on any new businesses that might consider leasing there.

[Raintree21]

I should imagine this is going to put a damper on any new businesses that might consider leasing there.

Haven't a majority of them already signed their leases or is it that they have just announced their intentions of opening? I'm sure the city/county will do everything they can to make Epicentre succeed since it will be such a big tax windfall and increase College St's vibrancy.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Raintree21

[monsoon]

^What do you think the city or county might do to get this resolved? BTW, they will get their tax money regardless.

[Andyc545]

It already is an issue that goes beyond the city. The federal courts are the ones that are likely going to making a lot of these decisions at this point. Obviously, the county will still do what it can within its rules to either continue temporary occupancy certificates, etc., but it could get very ugly very fast.

Yup- both the lawsuit and the counter were both filed under federal courts.

^What do you think the city or county might do to get this resolved? BTW, they will get their tax money regardless.

Not sure, but I do know that the Ritz next door and BofA employees will not be too happy with that sitting there for years after years. The land is too valuable to sit without someone purchasing it and doing something with it if the only resolution is for it to be sold off.

[Raintree21]

^What do you think the city or county might do to get this resolved? BTW, they will get their tax money regardless.

Primarily, I'm thinking fast tracking any needed certificates for occupancy but I'm sure they would attempt to address or resolve other issues as needed if they are able.

[Charlotte_native]

^amend and re-work the permits for multi-owner. Though the details of the lawsuit might somehow play a larger role, over all I can't see why they can't just stop the progress for the residential tower and allow the completed commercial base portion to remain open. Obviously those parts are mostly completed and have passed required inspections. Since the construction has halted on another part that is attached, but not integral to the needs of the commercial component, it really just sounds like a paper-pusher issue and they've extended to Sept. 15th in all liklihood to do just this.

For all of us that follow this consider how many don't -- at least last night for the After 5 parties it didn't seem to have an effect at all -- still lined up down the block to get in.

I also doubt the intent of the FC suit against Ghazi is to shut down his other parts of this project -- if so how would they ever expect to get any money out of him? Furthermore it is doubtful a court would shut down another component (presumably to punish? this isn't an issue of punishment but how to resolve a particular issue) of this project because something else got locked up -- there would be no point in this from the position of the court -- you don't pre-punish someone or try and harm their other business interests, only specifics pertaining to the case. Most lawsuits are settled out of court anyway and I doubt Ghazi or FC want to waste millions and enrich attorney's, but you have to file the suit to show how serious you are.

[monsoon]

....this isn't an issue of punishment but how to resolve a particular issue) of this project because something else got locked up -- there would be no point in this from the position of the court -- you don't pre-punish someone or try and harm their other business interests, only specifics pertaining to the case. Most lawsuits are settled out of court anyway and I doubt Ghazi or FC want to waste millions and enrich attorney's, but you have to file the suit to show how serious you are.

That is the point of all Civil cases which are what these lawsuits are. This is as opposed to criminal cases, brought by the government were punishments are doled out. The court is obliged to consider the complaints brought by each side. They have to judge it based on existing laws on the books. They can't not do this because there is some desire to save this place.

Now I would guess that if Ghazi and/or FC didn't want to waste millions on attorneys, they would have already settled this amongst themselves. I would also guess based on the rumors here, is there are some serious shortfalls in the financing of this entire complex, and each is looking to lay the liability for it on the other. Meanwhile these kind of actions, these lawsuits, are going to cast a dooming pall over the entire project which, if so, will have the effect of scaring off businesses and potential buyers.

I think the lesson to be learnt here is there should be a big hesitation in placing a contract on a condo in an unbuilt tower.

[atlrvr]

Here's my take:

F&C's arguement is Ghazi delivered the base almost a year late, which put them in a worse market and tougher lending environment (much lower LTVs on commercial projects). Additionally, he delivered fewer parking spaces to F&C than promised (decreasing the value of their project) and built a second tower without paying an "adjuster" of $2.1M that their contract supposedly promises.

F&C has a lender willing to make a loan but they have some terms that are contingent on Ghazi's cooperation, likely from a financial perspective. Perhaps they are asking Ghazi to be a personal guarantor on the loan, or to pledge part of EpiCentre as collatoral to the bank. Obviously Ghazi doesn't feel obligated to do that.

Don't see much of a way out, unless F&C can raise more equity from private sources, find a bank dumb enough to take on an upsized loan, or Ghazi has a change of heart and is willing to become some sort of financial partner to F&C.

[Charlotte_native]

Meanwhile these kind of actions, these lawsuits, are going to cast a dooming pall over the entire project and that have the effect of scaring off businesses and potential buyers.

I"m sure it will hurt recruiting new businesses, but those that are already there are packed nightly, this news has been out for a week or two now with no effect, and I doubt partygoers will care about an unbuilt condo tower any more than they have about partying in a half built complex already. As for buyers, those will definitely be long gone.

My point was just that a civil court isn't in the business of punishment and has no interest in shutting down businesses that are only associated loosely with the residential portion. There is no purpose in that, so likely the city/county (who control permitting) will try and work out the permit issue in this so the businesses that are open and doing well can continue -- those business owners have nothing to do with FC and Ghazi's issues (and work on the entertainment complex has continued daily since the announcment of these suits).

I wouldn't be surprised if the base of the condo tower sits idle for quite some time while Aloft and EpiCentre continue on just as planned.

As for settling before now, large suits like this, when everyone starts digging their trenchings and lobbing their grenades generally have to get to the point of filed suits before parties really begin to sit at the table in earnest. I'll bet quite a bit that this never hits the inside of a courtroom other than for a hearing or two if it even gets there.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[monsoon]

....

As for settling before now, large suits like this, when everyone starts digging their trenchings and lobbing their grenades generally have to get to the point of filed suits before parties really begin to sit at the table in earnest. I'll bet quite a bit that this never hits the inside of a courtroom other than for a hearing or two if it even gets there.

I disagree. When relations have gotten to the point of going to court then the war has started. These kind of things are serious business and filing lawsuits are not frivolous matters that are done simply to cement a certain position. Any good lawyer will tell you that engaging in such behavior, wasting the court's time, can easily backfire and result in unintended consequences. A judge, especially a federal judge, may decide not to dismiss the lawsuit and require it to go to trial. Nobody, especially in business, want so subject themselves to a position where they are not in control, but going to a court does exactly that.

[Charlotte_native]

I disagree. When relations have gotten to the point of going to court then the war has started. These kind of things are serious business and filing lawsuits are not frivolous matters that are done simply to cement a certain position. Any good lawyer will tell you that engaging in such behavior, wasting the court's time, can easily backfire and result in unintended consequences. A judge, especially a federal judge, may decide not to dismiss the lawsuit and require it to go to trial. Nobody, especially in business, want so subject themselves to a position where they are not in control, but going to a court does exactly that.

This is actually exactly what I meant. There is no other way to show just how serious you are other than filing the suit. That doesn't mean it is frivolous at all, quite the contrary and it shows true intent to fight, but it does make everyone take a serious look at how far they want to battle and how damaging it can be for both parties. Even winners in lawsuits like this tend to lose. Judges and lawyers both will be attempting to get both parties to an agreement before a full-blown trial, even in Federal court.

[Kelemipololi]

I bet the project could be done for good after monitoring this past week Construction workers have started to take down 210 Trade the 2 stories they have done on. Unless there looking to replace it which I don't think thats the case.

Heres the link for the webcam or 210 and just look on how there taking it apart now.

http://oxblue.com/client/flahertycollins/twotentrade/