Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[serapis]

Most people on this forum pretend as if Raleigh has a block grid pattern throughout the city, and we're just tearing that up with isolation. Wrong. Raleigh's grid is a speghetti weave of suburban, urbanness. Where the Soliel project stands, is hardly a terrific spot for some "made up" urban village. Sorry.

I think some people really need to relax. Compared to a decade or so ago, Raleigh's growth is definately more strategically planned. I'm not saying it can't be better, but Raleigh will have a balance to fit everyone's lifestyle. Believe it or everyone isn't into the urban village thing, surburban quietnees, or lavish highrise living.

We have to look at this from all angles, not just what you want personally.

[sax184]

I have been reading several of the last few days worth of posts to get caught up and I am wondering how people define "smart growth". Does that mean only highrises in DT Raleigh? Does that mean no subdivisions? Does that mean setting boundaries on the cities limit and they can't grow past that line? What is smart growth guys?

It seems many are not in favor of neighborhoods and are in favor for the area to have singles, widows, and married couples living in highrises in DT Raleigh?

Do you believe that only subdivisions are neighborhoods, and anything that is not a subdivision in not a neighborhood? If so, I could see why you would get that idea from some of the posters here.

But I don't think that's what anybody is saying. I believe that the Triangle already has enough subdivisions to last the next 40-50 years. I certainly understand that many people love their subdivisions and cul-de-sacs, and find them to be great neighborhoods. I believe that single-use only subdivisions are lesser neighborhoods than mixed-use gridded (or at least multiple-street intersecting) neighborhoods.

I grew up in such a place, and had a terrific, safe childhood in such a neighborhood, and want the same for my kids. Some people here love skyscrapers, they have their place, but I'd rather see more 4-8 story buildings that embrace the streetscape.

[pdxheel]

In my opinion, having lived in several different cities in the US, when the Triangle builds new single homes it is always in the mold of a cul-de-sac subdivision. Other cities I've lived are much more concerned with integrating new home development into existing neighborhoods (grid streets, infill, promotion of local retail center not malls, public squares integration with transit and lightrail, etc). That being said, like transitman I'm also not a big proponent of super tall condo skyscrapers either, especially if they are not located close to DT.

[sax184]

To further respond to Cary NC about subdivisions-- I think that Brier Creek's retail and housing is more or less a complete mess. There will probably be another 5-10 Brier Creek type places built in Wake County in the next 10 years. We would all be better off if instead of building 5-10 Brier Creeks, we built 30-60 Southern Villages in the exact same places, with better walking, biking, and transit connectivity among those locations.

[serapis]

What about the folks who can't afford Briercreek type places? I get what your saying, but you have to speak to the needs,economics, and the culture for everyone in Raleigh.

Bottom line for me is, I don't see the need to argue over the Soliel project. Whether you like it or not, it's still your opinion regardless. It's not the end for Raleigh.

I'll promise you this though. Most people from out of town who see this building will be in aww. They'll also get the feeling that Raleigh is progressive.

[pdxheel]

I'll promise you this though. Most people from out of town who see this building will be in aww. They'll also get the feeling that Raleigh is progressive.

If the Soliel center is what causes people to look at Raleigh in aww and as progressive city than Raleigh has some serious issues and the people in aww have never been to a real city.

[serapis]

You have to understand though seriously. The average person isn't looking at this project and wondering if has walkability, street level retail, or a village atmosphere. Believe it or not, most people outside this forum aren't concerned about village urbanity.

This tower is basically this. It's like a huge statue, or monument, with the functionability of a hotel, and high priced condos. It's not meant to be but so communicative. It sits on a sliver of land off of a major road. It's iconic. Period.

Personally, I find it an exciting monumental art piece.

[FrancisHubert]

Hey all this is my first post, but ive been following these boards since summer. Anywho i believe like serapis said the Soliel center will show people that Raleigh is growing and becoming a known name city. Look at Atlanta, they have many buildings outside of downtown that are 20+ stories; and yet their downtown is still booming. Yes, Atlanta is much larger, but 25yrs ago Atlanta was very similar to Raleigh.

[pdxheel]

You have to understand though seriously. The average person isn't looking at this project and wondering if has walkability, street level retail, or a village atmosphere. Believe it or not, most people outside this forum aren't concerned about village urbanity.

This tower is basically this. It's like a huge statue, or monument, with the functionability of a hotel, and high priced condos. It's not meant to be but so communicative. It sits on a sliver of land off of a major road. It's iconic. Period.

Personally, I find it an exciting monumental art piece.

If you are looking at Soliel as a piece of art only I still have to disagree. Its no different than many other buildings going up in cities accross the country. Its not unique from an artistic sense either.

To you point that "the average person isn't looking at this project and wondering if has walkability, street level retail, or a village atmosphere" I agree...in Raleigh. Other cities (not all) where I have lived this is very important to the majority of people.

[sax184]

serapis and FrancisHubert- if you don't mind me asking, what city/town do you live in, and where else have you previously lived?

[Cary NC]

Personally, I have lived in Sacramento, Seattle, Salt Lake City, and Denver but grew up in Cary from birth to 19 years old. I am now living back in Cary because I like this place better than all of the other cities.

I ask the question about neighborhoods because it seems that subdivisions are not supported in this forum, but where do you have families live? So what is "smart growth"? Anyone care to voice an opinion?

[serapis]

I've lived in larger cities Transitman, but that's beside the point. Your thoughts on the Soliel project and most other projects planned recently, you've shown great criticism for, are just your opinion.

I find Raleigh to be a wonderful livable city. Instead of ragging on progressive projects, why not rag on the pathetic use of land on Six Forks and Wake Forest rd? Costco anyone?

[FrancisHubert]

I lived in Chicago for 18yrs, then Atlanta for about 4, then good ole raleigh since.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I lived in Chicago for 18yrs, then Atlanta for about 4, then good ole raleigh since.

Sounds like you kept moving to smaller and smaller cities? Complicated reasons? Not tring to be personal!

[FrancisHubert]

Sounds like you kept moving to smaller and smaller cities? Complicated reasons? Not tring to be personal!

Well i grew up in Chicago, then went to college at Georgia Tech. I liked Atlanta alot but i found a better job in the RTP and stayed ever since. I like Raleigh, its not huge yet not small. I like that this area is growing, thats why ive stayed.

[romec]

I'm kind of confused about what anyone is really arguing about anymore, but I just wanted to get my two cents in again :-).

As Dana was saying, the demand for a hotel is defintely there. Anyone else remember that Raleigh was promised a hockey all-star game, but its been put off with lack of high end hotels being a major reason. What better place to put a luxury hotel than between the Airport, Downtown and our sports arena with a mall adjacent to it.

Another big issue is whether or not this constitutes "smart growth". A lot of people are still against this project because it isn't downtown. Smart growth doesn't have to be downtown, infill is infill whether its on Fayetteville Street or on Glenwood Avenue. Crabtree is a focus area and the comprehensive plan calls for this area to have infill and to get denser. I agree that it isn't walkable by a long shot, but who is to say that a denser Crabtree area wouldn't eventually become walkable or even warrant a mass transit stop(rail)?

As far as the criticism of the city in approving this, put yourself in their shoes. A developer is offering to build on an existing parcel and you don't have to build roads or pipes to the location. Furthermore the developer is putting high end condos going for $600 dollars a square foot on a small footprint. Do you know how much the city is gaining from a project like this? Look at the tax revenue vs building/maintaining infrastructure for this parcel. That number is going to be even better than projects downtown. The ~40 condos are really the only thing "new" on this site, and they aren't going to generate that many trips. If you want to gripe about Glenwood being congested, thats a fair argument, but Soleil wouldn't be the culprit. Soleil's traffic is really just throwing a bucket into the ocean. The underlying problem is that we need a stronger mass transit link to the Crabtree area.

One last thing is the talk of how many millionaire's Raleigh has etc etc. That isn't really the city's concern. That is the developer's concern. They are betting hundreds of millions of dollars that they can turn a profit by building a building and selling space in it. The market will either back them up, or it won't. If the market doesn't back it up they either have to reconfigure the way they are selling space (this is the city's concern) or they lose their investment. Regardless of how many millionaire's are here, you still don't know how many millionaire's might want a place here, but there isn't a supply.

As uptownliving was saying, nothing should be built on this plot. In fact Crabtree mall really shouldn't be there either. No development on this parcel is going to be walkable or have ground level retail/features. The only smarter use of this parcel would be to have nothing on it at all. The fact that there was something on it, and now a proposal to build something that is less susceptible to flood damage, fills a need AND generates tax revenue sounds like a win-win for the city.

[serapis]

I'm kind of confused about what anyone is really arguing about anymore, but I just wanted to get my two cents in again :-).

As Dana was saying, the demand for a hotel is defintely there. Anyone else remember that Raleigh was promised a hockey all-star game, but its been put off with lack of high end hotels being a major reason. What better place to put a luxury hotel than between the Airport, Downtown and our sports arena with a mall adjacent to it.

Another big issue is whether or not this constitutes "smart growth". A lot of people are still against this project because it isn't downtown. Smart growth doesn't have to be downtown, infill is infill whether its on Fayetteville Street or on Glenwood Avenue. Crabtree is a focus area and the comprehensive plan calls for this area to have infill and to get denser. I agree that it isn't walkable by a long shot, but who is to say that a denser Crabtree area wouldn't eventually become walkable or even warrant a mass transit stop(rail)?

As far as the criticism of the city in approving this, put yourself in their shoes. A developer is offering to build on an existing parcel and you don't have to build roads or pipes to the location. Furthermore the developer is putting high end condos going for $600 dollars a square foot on a small footprint. Do you know how much the city is gaining from a project like this? Look at the tax revenue vs building/maintaining infrastructure for this parcel. That number is going to be even better than projects downtown. The ~40 condos are really the only thing "new" on this site, and they aren't going to generate that many trips. If you want to gripe about Glenwood being congested, thats a fair argument, but Soleil wouldn't be the culprit. Soleil's traffic is really just throwing a bucket into the ocean. The underlying problem is that we need a stronger mass transit link to the Crabtree area.

One last thing is the talk of how many millionaire's Raleigh has etc etc. That isn't really the city's concern. That is the developer's concern. They are betting hundreds of millions of dollars that they can turn a profit by building a building and selling space in it. The market will either back them up, or it won't. If the market doesn't back it up they either have to reconfigure the way they are selling space (this is the city's concern) or they lose their investment. Regardless of how many millionaire's are here, you still don't know how many millionaire's might want a place here, but there isn't a supply.

As uptownliving was saying, nothing should be built on this plot. In fact Crabtree mall really shouldn't be there either. No development on this parcel is going to be walkable or have ground level retail/features. The only smarter use of this parcel would be to have nothing on it at all. The fact that there was something on it, and now a proposal to build something that is less susceptible to flood damage, fills a need AND generates tax revenue sounds like a win-win for the city.

Cosign.

[sax184]

Cary NC- I think families should live wherever they wish- downtown, outside of downtown, wherever.

I have no problems with subdivisions themselves, just with the way 95% of them are built. Seriously, if you haven't been to Southern Village in Chapel Hill, go check it out. It's a denser, more walkable, mixed-use neighborhood with a nice Town/Village center. Most of the people who live there are families with 2-3 children. Something like 80 percent of the kids there walk/bike to the school on paths, greenways, and sidewalks. There's a movie theater called the Lumina and they show family-friendly movies on the Town Green on Friday nights. Grab the kids, go see a movie, eat lunch and walk the trails. If there's a more wholesome, family-friendly place in the Triangle, I haven't seen it. This is how subdivisions should be built. On your way back from Southern Village, pick a random newly-constructed neighborhood in Morrisville and drive through it. You'll see what's missing.

In communities that are built on smart growth principles, be they in America, Europe, wherever-- there are housing types for families, for singles, for married couples with no kids, and for senior citizens. Southern Village fits this bill. You may raise 2-4 kids in a bigger house, and then if you want, move to a condo when you get older and have an empty nest and don't need or want to maintain as much space.

You might also check out Kentlands (Google Map) in Maryland. You can see how Kentlands is different in the middle of the Google map because it doesn't have cul-de-sacs, while the neighborhood to the left and south of Rt 28 is full of them.

[Cary NC]

Cary NC- I think families should live wherever they wish- downtown, outside of downtown, wherever.

I have no problems with subdivisions themselves, just with the way 95% of them are built. Seriously, if you haven't been to Southern Village in Chapel Hill, go check it out. It's a denser, more walkable, mixed-use neighborhood with a nice Town/Village center. Most of the people who live there are families with 2-3 children. Something like 80 percent of the kids there walk/bike to the school on paths, greenways, and sidewalks. There's a movie theater called the Lumina and they show family-friendly movies on the Town Green on Friday nights. Grab the kids, go see a movie, eat lunch and walk the trails. If there's a more wholesome, family-friendly place in the Triangle, I haven't seen it. This is how subdivisions should be built. On your way back from Southern Village, pick a random newly-constructed neighborhood in Morrisville and drive through it. You'll see what's missing.

In communities that are built on smart growth principles, be they in America, Europe, wherever-- there are housing types for families, for singles, for married couples with no kids, and for senior citizens. Southern Village fits this bill. You may raise 2-4 kids in a bigger house, and then if you want, move to a condo when you get older and have an empty nest and don't need or want to maintain as much space.

You might also check out Kentlands (Google Map) in Maryland. You can see how Kentlands is different in the middle of the Google map because it doesn't have cul-de-sacs, while the neighborhood to the left and south of Rt 28 is full of them.

Southern Village sounds just like Carpenter Village, Bedford Falls? in Raleigh, Amberly in Cary, along many other proposed in Western Cary. I think the area is going towards smart growth. Granted it has taken awhile but we are getting there. Even Knightdale has a proposed neighborhod model after the ones listed above.

So this smart growth or lack of is more in the past than in the present. That is where 95% of the neighborhoods came from. You can thank the 1980s/1990s for that

[sax184]

Southern Village sounds just like Carpenter Village, Bedford Falls? in Raleigh, Amberly in Cary, along many other proposed in Western Cary. I think the area is going towards smart growth. Granted it has taken awhile but we are getting there. Even Knightdale has a proposed neighborhod model after the ones listed above.

So this smart growth or lack of is more in the past than in the present. That is where 95% of the neighborhoods came from. You can thank the 1980s/1990s for that

That's what the marketers want you to think. However, taking a quick look at the websites, Amberly and Bedford Falls are mostly knock-offs and partially realized versions of Southern Village. I think Carpenter Village may be a distinct improvement over the other two.

The flaw of Amberly is that the street network is essentially suburban with isolated pods of housing connected to an arterial. The retail is mostly located at the north and west. Check out the Amberly map to see what I mean.

Do the rollovers. If you live in the "Avila" multifamily section, you have to walk out to the arterial, turn right, and then walk up to the retail/village center and turn right again.

The point here is that while it is on a smaller scale, and does have pedestrian access, the retail and residential remain separated. In Southern Village, and Carpenter Village, the all-residential sections flow right into the retail area. In Southern Village to boot, there is residential ABOVE most, if not all of the retail. Unless it's not yet noted, there is no vertical mix of uses in Amberly.

Looking at th Amberly Town Center, you'll also see that the buildings are placed away from the arterial leading north to O'Kelley Chapel Rd. This is a suburban practice which puts the future potential for road widening ahead of building to the sidewalk to encourage pedestrian activity.

Bedford Falls is much weaker. They have a Farmer's market, which is an itinerant use- meaning when the Farmer's market is there, it is for a few moments, a weak mixed-use community. Otherwise, everyone in Bedford Falls is most likely to continue to drive everywhere to shop. It looks like a missed opportunity.

Does that mean that these half-hearted steps aren't progress? No. These places are still minor improvements, but they're not really smart growth. Bedford has a better street grid than Amberly, even though it still has some cul-de-sacs. But it doesn't really mix uses. Amberly seems to have made a greater commitment to retail, but they've failed to integrate it into the residential. I don't think either community has a school like Southern Village.

Carpenter Village, when all the retail fills in, may be quite compelling. I'm reserving judgment on it until it fills in a bit more. Still, there are a lot of things done right in Carpenter Village.

Southern Village also has a church, a Chapel Hill Transit park-and-ride lot to UNC, a major employer, and local bus service connecting it to Chapel Hill. Finally, it would be interesting to compare the densities of each of the developments.

I agree with you that most of the 80's and 90's produced pretty lousy subdivisions, and I think things are changing, but far too slowly.

Ultimately, there are a lot of developers selling "neotraditional" communities, without the mix of uses one finds in turn of the century neighborhoods like the West End in Winston-Salem or some of Charlotte's street car suburbs (maybe Dilworth). Some of them are completely faking it. Others are better. Southern Village is the best realized example in the Triangle by a long shot. Meadowmont, also in Chapel Hill, may be second. If Carpenter Village's retail fills in nicely, particularly if they get a grocery store, it could surpass Meadowmont as the second-best "New Urban" neighborhood built in recent years.

[pdxheel]

An important point for me is that the "neotraditional" and "mixed use" subdivisions like Southern Village are accessible by alternative forms of transportation such as transit, lighrial, street car and pedestrian/bike. At some point the Triangle is going to have to embrace alternative forms of transportation. While isolated neotraditional subdivision accessibility is better when in the community, they often lack alternative transportation access to other communities/urban centers.

[Subway Scoundrel]

Half of everybody on this forum doesn't care about urbanity or history, but height

Thanks for letting me know what I think !! Can you also pay my power, heat and drinking bill while you are at it?

[Jones_]

hmm, working up a checklist...see where your development falls...

Plat of land: single use__multi use___ (subdivision, office park, or shopping center)

Design elements: side walks___parking in rear only___ multi use buildings____

Roads: conectivity within development____connectivity to rest of city____

Alternate transit options__________________________

(still a work in progress)

Clearly there is quite a sliding scale here. As different as Southern Village is, it still fails to be connected to Chapel Hill proper via bike lanes, sidewalks....just one single road. It is somewhat of a (except for high paying jobs) self-contained suburban development. Where will families live?? nobody is suggesting a family must live 30 stories up or next door to an urban food lion. You could have a Southern Village, other single use development even, once every mile if say a train connected these places but we do not. You could have scattered developments if say three multi-use boulevards (bike lanes, sidewalks, medians) connected each development, but we have either a clogged two lane rural road with no option but to slam cars onto it (Davis drive until recently anyone?) or a packed 8 lane frankenstein connecting the region. It very simple...design the developments 'better' and connect them better.

[pdxheel]

hmm, working up a checklist...see where your development falls...

Plat of land: single use__multi use___ (subdivision, office park, or shopping center)

Design elements: side walks___parking in rear only___ multi use buildings____

Roads: conectivity within development____connectivity to rest of city____

Alternate transit options__________________________

(still a work in progress)

Clearly there is quite a sliding scale here. As different as Southern Village is, it still fails to be connected to Chapel Hill proper via bike lanes, sidewalks....just one single road. It is somewhat of a (except for high paying jobs) self-contained suburban development. Where will families live?? nobody is suggesting a family must live 30 stories up or next door to an urban food lion. You could have a Southern Village, other single use development even, once every mile if say a train connected these places but we do not. You could have scattered developments if say three multi-use boulevards (bike lanes, sidewalks, medians) connected each development, but we have either a clogged two lane rural road with no option but to slam cars onto it (Davis drive until recently anyone?) or a packed 8 lane frankenstein connecting the region. It very simple...design the developments 'better' and connect them better.

AGREE!

[Damien]

Bedford Falls is much weaker. They have a Farmer's market, which is an itinerant use- meaning when the Farmer's market is there, it is for a few moments, a weak mixed-use community. Otherwise, everyone in Bedford Falls is most likely to continue to drive everywhere to shop. It looks like a missed opportunity.

Does that mean that these half-hearted steps aren't progress? No. These places are still minor improvements, but they're not really smart growth. Bedford has a better street grid than Amberly, even though it still has some cul-de-sacs. But it doesn't really mix uses. Amberly seems to have made a greater commitment to retail, but they've failed to integrate it into the residential. I don't think either community has a school like Southern Village.

A friend of mine used to live in Bedford. It is a pretty nice neighborhood. The farmers market isn't much at all, just a little red shack really. There are plans to build a shopping/office village in the area right around the farmers market though. There is also a shopping center off Falls River Rd. when it ends at Durant Rd.. I do agree that it isn't what I would consider a true mixed use village right now. When the office/shopping village section of it is built I will be comforatable calling it a true mixed use neighborhood