Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[sax184]

JT, Downtown and Crabtree are totally separate housing markets. That's why Soliel's condos are not competition for RBC. The real question is do you want to live in a condo near crabtree and closer to RBC, or do you want the downtown Raleigh experience.

That's definitely a challenge to prove given that Google hits are awash with new projects and proposals. (There is little info on the net about stuff that was built in the 60's and 70's.). You also are tying my hands a bit when you disqualify 3 of America's largest cities. The older cities like NYC and Boston have spread and swallowed small towns, and are not called "NYC" if you live out in Connecticut, so research is more difficult with that.

Finally the 20 story requirement is arbitrary and really has nothing to do with the viability of Soliel Center. SC is a skinny cluster of 45 or so condos sitting ON TOP of a desparately needed hotel. If it were sitting beside the hotel, the entire point of the building beyond just a hotel would be moot. Therefore 20 stories is not a valid comparison. A more appropriate number is 6 stories. Most feel that anything above that height is "high-rise" living. Residents are out of touch with life at the pedestrian level.

Poking around I wasn't able to find much about my assertion. However, I do remember condos in Pentagon City (Washington, DC), Tampa, and Las Vegas, off the top of my head. There are other projects existing or planned in Philadelphia, Chicago, Miami, Charlotte, Phoenix, Jersey City (NYC), Tysons Corner (Washington, DC), and Minneapolis (#1, #2).

There is tons more information at the unPlanning Journal, and the Skyscraper Page Forum.

Now you can go do some homework.

We'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes high-rise, midrise, and low-rise development. Among my world standard bearers for urbanism that is pedestrian oriented, Prague is near the top of the list, and it has many buildings that are hundreds of years old that are in the 6-8, even ten story range (they're probably smaller floors than modern 10 stories).

I chose 20 stories because at that height, there's no doubt it's a skyscraper. I guess you could go down to 12-15 stories.

But I eliminated Atlanta and Houston because they are cities with particularly nonexistent approaches to urban planning and extremely poor growth management. Dallas has a history of poor growth management that is beginning to turn around. While a lot of America sprawls, these three hypertrophic cities I find to be particularly unindicative of common US experience, just as New York is not indicative of most American cities.

As for the projects above, I wouldn't count planned ones because many of them will fail the market test.

I also disagree that there are separate markets for "highrise condo near crabtree" and "highrise condo downtown." If you specifically want a condo near crabtree, you can probably find some condos within 1-2 miles of Crabtree that have nearly identical drive access times from the upper floors of Soleil when you count elevator transfer time to the parking deck.

I believe there is a unified market for living in skyscrapers, especially in NC cities. The populace has VERY little experience living in high-rise (12-15+ stories) buildings, and many of those who have moved from places with high-rise living have not done so to find high-rise living in NC. I also believe that when push comes to shove, the market interested in high-rise living in NC is interested in living in an urban rather than suburban setting.

Maybe Soleil will be built because of a bunch of people who want to have second homes, but when it comes down to cheaper, true urban living downtown in brand new skyscrapers or Soleil, I believe Soleil will have a hard time making the case for the full-time residential market.

[ChiefJoJo]

I also disagree that there are separate markets for "highrise condo near crabtree" and "highrise condo downtown."

I believe there is a unified market for living in skyscrapers, especially in NC cities. The populace has VERY little experience living in high-rise (12-15+ stories) buildings, and many of those who have moved from places with high-rise living have not done so to find high-rise living in NC.

I have to agree with Transitman, although the market gets the final say. Crabtree and DT Raleigh are different submarkets, but when you get into highrise buildings, I think those differences tend to blur together. Maybe some of the super-high end extras and larger units that Soleil has to offer will sway somebody who is looking at RBC, but for me, it would be very very difficult to justify spending that kind of money ($2M+) when there is a comparable condo bldg (also coming with Site 1 and Lafayette--both around 20 stories) which offers much the same highrise experience, but with a MUCH better pedestrian experience and at less than half the price.

EDIT: WRAL story on DT condos--mentions Soleil Center.

[Subway Scoundrel]

They are all sizzle, no steak. This could be a *positive* if they teamed up with another established developer who has been there, done that. Three I can think of right away include Greg Hatem, the father and son Reynolds team, and Greg Saunterer. They have a decent read on the pulse of the area, but they aren't flashy, unlike Donald Trump wannabes Dicky Walia and Sanjay Mundra. Eventually Raleigh will be ready for the $3 million condo, which a team approach could capitalize on.

The problem with those 3 are they are small companies with what I would call "Funky financial backing" with little of their own. (I am only guessing but have some inside info) I mean, they have money but not the money that it takes for these projects and especially Soliel center. I know personally one of those that are mentioned and I think people think they are richer and have more resources than they actually have.

I also think the 3 mention have more on their tables than they can handle. Plus, i think too many "egos" would never work and the ones mentioned are and have "Big egos". (I would say Hatem is not as much but I would be careful going into business relationship with him.) I think the Soliel team should work with bigger team of people from outside Raleigh who want to enter the marketplace. I believe that is what they have done. JMHO

I think the "every 15 year" flood that happened in Crabtree last year hurt any possibilities of this project. I still hope it happens

I also hope that some developer who wanted to come into DT or do something different in Raleigh did not have to be part of the "old boy" network......... but maybe that is where Raleigh still is.

Again, just my humble opinion.

[Jones_]

Can't help but notice the simalarities between Soleil and Reynolds in building content and size. some office space, very nice hotels, and ultra expensive condos on top. There is probably market for hotels in both places and equally so, compared to other housing, and weaker demand for ultra expensive condos 30 stories up. If that is my market, insulated from the street level but not wanting to be among the 'commoners' at RBC, it really comes down where I want to get my thrills....Crabtree, RBC Center and Angus Barn, or Cameron Village Memorial Auditorium, and Sullivans.

On a side note..Edwards Mill between RBC and Crabtree is becoming more walkable than I thought...Eckard and another building are pulled up nicely to their neighborhood side streets, and there are hundreds of townhomes with sidewalks leading accross the street to Char-Gril and Starbucks....its no downtown but not horrible bad imo.

[JTsaysToYou]

JT, Downtown and Crabtree are totally separate housing markets. That's why Soliel's condos are not competition for RBC. The real question is do you want to live in a condo near crabtree and closer to RBC, or do you want the downtown Raleigh experience.

You're right.

They ARE NOT completely seperate markets. Raleigh does not have enough people who can afford 1mil-3mil condos for them to be considered seperate. I dont know the statistics, and i dont really care, but I know raleigh has fewer people in the 1-3mil range than say atlanta. And when you have such a sparce amount of people, the percentage who want to live in a skyscraper as opposed to a suburban mansion, is even less. I am really not sure if we have enough people who want to live in upscale EXPENSIVE condos right now. Soliel directly spreads the downtown condo market thinner, even though its not downtown.

You may say "but its only 40-something condos!" Well, when there are only 300-something millionaires, 40 is a HUGE number.

If it was a suburban mansion, yes it would be a different market, but its not.

Oh, and also, people who live in skyscrapers want an urban experience. And urban experience will always be best in DT. I really doubt that people will want to live ACROSS THE STREET form the mall, but have to drive there because crossing that road is suicide. I personally think that anyone who buys these condos is a complete idiot.

[dmccall]

Oh, and also, people who live in skyscrapers want an urban experience. And urban experience will always be best in DT. I really doubt that people will want to live ACROSS THE STREET form the mall...

The people in the two condo towers (on the right), next to a heavy rail stop, are "idiots", then. This area, incidentally, is across the street from a mall and is the same distance from their downtown as Strickland/Falls of Neuse is from Raleigh's downtown.

[uptownliving]

I think I might have said this before...but this site should not have a building on it at all. It is in a flood plain and is prone to flooding. If this were a perfect world then the city would have bought the property and expanded the greenway that already exists. This action might have even *gasp* helped with mitigating flooding downstream.

I think it is silly to compare Buckhead with Crabtree. There are currently ZERO plans to extend anytype of rail to Crabtree and until that happens you will not...and should not...see the type of density that exists in Buckhead.

The main reason these condos havn't sold is the price. They are asking $600/sq ft...pretty much double the going rate for downtown Raleigh. Is Crabtree twice as good an area as downtown Raleigh? LOL In my book downtown Raleigh is at least twice as good as the Crabtree area.

[serapis]

Why is everyone so concerned about a small strip of land. What about the subdivisons that are clear-cutting through our landscape, and are built to cheap substandards?

Look. Whoever buys those condos at the Soleil Center, is absolutely their business. If some of you guys on here don't realize that this building is more iconic than functional, then you just don't get it. Every peice of land in Raleigh isn't meant to be some made up little village with shops, especially this area.

[dmccall]

There are currently ZERO plans to extend anytype of rail to Crabtree

For all intents and purposes, there currently aren't any plans to take rail anywhere in the Triangle. Given the death of the TTA's federal funding hopes, it's time to take the entire concept back to the drawing board. We might as well draw up a new plan that actually hits population focus areas instead of Raleigh's least desirable parts pieces of land.

[cophead567]

the idea of having condos near a major mall is nothing new. in my opinion, i believe the hotel in soleil was the major force behind the project, offices and condos were just a bonus. but anyway, i support the project and hope to see it go up. i'm no expert, but i just cant understand those prices however. who knows though, we should be patient and wait to see what they come up with when they announce something official.

by the way, i've got family in miami so when visiting, i've seen lots of growth around the dadeland mall. look at the type of projects going up around this mall. also note, the mall is not close to downtown, south beach, coconut grove or any other hot spot down there. opinions?

[sax184]

Why is everyone so concerned about a small strip of land. What about the subdivisons that are clear-cutting through our landscape, and are built to cheap substandards?

Look. Whoever buys those condos at the Soleil Center, is absolutely their business. If some of you guys on here don't realize that this building is more iconic than functional, then you just don't get it. Every peice of land in Raleigh isn't meant to be some made up little village with shops, especially this area.

I think most of us would be ecstatic to see ANY area in the city designed as an actual village instead of a suburban wasteland. The reason why so many people, myself included, are frustrated with this project is that its development sends a message to the citizens and real estate industry that "money talks, good ideas/planning walks."

[ChiefJoJo]

Why is everyone so concerned about a small strip of land. What about the subdivisons that are clear-cutting through our landscape, and are built to cheap substandards?

Soleil and it's "small strip of land" is iconic. It is symbolic of a lot of what is wrong with Raleigh IMO, and that's why it tends to be a lightning rod on the forum and other places good planning is appreciated. Sure it's only a hotel and 40 or so condos, but I don't think that is an appropriate response to why there is a planned 42 story building in a floodplain at Crabtree. You can lump Soleil right into why we have so many lousy sprawling subdivisions in and around Raleigh. Almost without exception, whatever some developer wants to do in Wake County, gets done--planning and smart growth be damned.

If this project and others like it are built and traffic, schools and flooding and lack of drinking water gets bad enough, hopefully people will demand better growth and accountability among our local leaders.

[Hurricane]

I think most of us would be ecstatic to see ANY area in the city designed as an actual village instead of a suburban wasteland. The reason why so many people, myself included, are frustrated with this project is that its development sends a message to the citizens and real estate industry that "money talks, good ideas/planning walks."

How is the project a bad planning idea? There is very little land in that area so building up is the only option. In what way would this project be acceptable to you? I know I'm new here, so forgive me if I've come on too strong.

[RDUairport]

Hurricane, I think most people that have a problem with the project are focusing on the fact that its built in a flood plane not the fact that its a huge building that isn't located in downtown. Yes there are a few that don't like that as well but I believe most problems are for locating such a large project in such a flood prone area. I for one love the project and don't care about the location, mostly because it doesn't really matter to me (until the traffic gets even worse and then I'll bite my tounge), however I can see where people are get their frustration from with this project. Hope that helps. And nice to have you on board Hurricane!

[serapis]

Transitman no offense, but you are against every project that get's announced in this city, so your opinion is kind of null, and void to me. No offense though. You love to rant. However there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, if none of you are buying these condos in a flood plain, how is it your business? I don't see how this project will personally effect any of you. You can't rant about traffic either, beacause this one building will bring very little of that.

[Subway Scoundrel]

Hurricane, I think most people that have a problem with the project are focusing on the fact that its built in a flood plane not the fact that its a huge building that isn't located in downtown.

I think it is the opposite. I think people don't like the height at that location but use the floodplane argument to strenghten that opposition to the project. JMHO

[JTsaysToYou]

I dont give a crap about the floodplain or the height, i care about the price. Raleigh does not have anough REALLY rich people to make 45 1-3mil dollar condos that arent downtown. That is a veyr specialized niche that downtown has and if soliel becomes a trend, downtown will be dead again before we know it.

[serapis]

Why do you care where the millionaires go? If one condo tower can stop DT development (which far exceeds this project), then it wasn't meant to be. Millionaires know what they want, and where they want it. Trust.

Raleigh is growing up my friend. Not only that, it will eventually become an Atlanta or Dallas. Which for some reason (i don't know why you guys don't think so) isn't so bad, because i'm quite sure we will dodge some of their mistakes. They've laid the blueprint for New Southern Cities.

If you want to live in an urban village type atmosphere "throughout" the city, try Europe or Boston.

Raleigh is what it is, and not everyone finds that bad.

[RALBOI]

Why do you care where the millionaires go? If one condo tower can stop DT development (which far exceeds this project), then it wasn't meant to be. Millionaires know what they want, and where they want it. Trust.

Raleigh is growing up my friend. Not only that, it will eventually become an Atlanta or Dallas. Which for some reason (i don't know why you guys don't think so) isn't so bad, because i'm quite sure we will dodge some of their mistakes. They've laid the blueprint for New Southern Cities.

If you want to live in an urban village type atmosphere "throughout" the city, try Europe or Boston.

Raleigh is what it is, and not everyone finds that bad.

I agree!!!

[MR-2]

Well, technically, people refer to Atlanta and Dallas as comparatives due to their overwhelming sprawl and poor growth planning. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'we're following the same path as Atlanta' in a positive manner. Seems even you yourself make the disclaimer that we can still dodge many mistakes these larger cities made, but those mistakes are, in typical conjecture, what define them.

Not to be dissing Dallas or Atlanta either. They're swell cities, and they're turning around, along with many others.

I would rather aim for Portland or Baltimore. But that's just me. Perhaps I'm weird.

[dmccall]

If you want to live in an urban village type atmosphere "throughout" the city, try Europe or Boston.

Doesn't Boston have worse traffic problems than Atlanta or Dallas ever imagined?

[sax184]

Doesn't Boston have worse traffic problems than Atlanta or Dallas ever imagined?

Actually, it's more the contrary. Boston has 30% less traffic delay than Atlanta or Dallas. Boston has 25 hours of travel delay per person per year, Atlanta and Dallas have about 35 hours per person per year. Check out the "Congestion Data for Your City" and pull the Boston and Dallas profiles, look at 2003.

You can see the figures at the Texas Transportation Institute. Boston gets this advantage from its compact city form, associated walkability, and vastly superior public transportation system.

As to serapis' posts above, it's hard for me to take them seriously, so I guess we're even on that count. Incidentally, I notice no response to my point about precendents and protecting the water supply. But I am hardly against every project in Raleigh. Do you see me grousing about Seaboard Station? Plans for site 1? The RBC tower? Fayetteville St re-opening?

The hard truth is that outside of downtown, the quality of most development going on in the city limits of our state capital is somewhere between dysfunctional and downright awful when it comes to urbanistic qualities, and I point out the flaws I see in these projects because it is possible (and in many cases quite EASY) to do SO much better. Too often we are worsening pre-existing problems instead of repairing them.

I just don't see how cheering for any development that comes along just because it's new helps Raleigh move towards being a great city. And saying "Raleigh is what it is" doesn't give Raleigh enough credit for what it could be if we demanded better of our politicians and developers.

[Cary NC]

I have been reading several of the last few days worth of posts to get caught up and I am wondering how people define "smart growth". Does that mean only highrises in DT Raleigh? Does that mean no subdivisions? Does that mean setting boundaries on the cities limit and they can't grow past that line? What is smart growth guys?

It seems many are not in favor of neighborhoods and are in favor for the area to have singles, widows, and married couples living in highrises in DT Raleigh?

[JTsaysToYou]

I have been reading several of the last few days worth of posts to get caught up and I am wondering how people define "smart growth". Does that mean only highrises in DT Raleigh? Does that mean no subdivisions? Does that mean setting boundaries on the cities limit and they can't grow past that line? What is smart growth guys?

It seems many are not in favor of neighborhoods and are in favor for the area to have singles, widows, and married couples living in highrises in DT Raleigh?

Half of everybody on this forum doesn't care about urbanity or history, but height so i guess thats one definition. But to me, a smart-growth project is a project where you can live (for the most part) by walking and public transit, while sustaining a sense of community and friendliness. That is what I ultmately want for DT. And I dont think we should limit the growth per se, but make it more economical and a better choice to build urban communities.

Back to soliel, Soliel is not urban. It might be considered semi urban if the built a collection of skybridges and such (but even that wouldnt be that urban, just somewhat so), but as of now, not many people who live there will walk at all. They will drive marginally everywhere. There will be no to very little sense of community considering 1 or 2 people live on each floor, and it sure as heck wont be friendly.

Maybe I answered some questions?

[Rufus]

thanks for the generalization of the forum Jtsaystoyou. If i recall the site is called urban planet? anyways, the whole Soleil thing is interesting in the sense that leaders called it a surefire win for Raleigh, in which it was. Some thought it would hurt downtown, but really let's look at it, downtown has benefited from it. Soleil will get built because change is inevitable. Atlanta we are not, but pretty soon our city will become more and more of the "Atlanta model" of the New South.