Downtown movie theater coming

[Veloise]

Here's a pic of the Star theatre, Art Deco faux neuveaux design. Lotsa other accessory uses (restaurants, bars, gaming) inside.

http://www.cityofsouthfield.com/visitors/star.php

[midude]

skywalks = bad

For me, it's all about the view. They chop it up too much.

If there absolutely has to be an enclosed cross-street connection, why not go underground?

[gvsusean]

I like the theatre its not flashy or anything really special, but I dont think people on UP 20 years from now will be like, "Oh god what were those early 21st century people thinking, they should've torn this down with the press building!" (the last part is bound to happen soon, call it wishful thinking )

[john_denver]

For the record I am in the Dad/civitas camp.

Skywalks = surface lots = bad

[Allison Slater]

I really don't mind the design much.. I see a few things that could use a little work, but overall it does fit in well with the Van Andel, and hopefully more buildings in that area will do the same. Yeah having a set downtown style is nice, but what's even nicer is certain districts of style. In the core, the current style is great. Over by the Van Andel, a more modernist look fits well.

[torgo]

I think that design theater is so-so. I also dont get the "E Street" thing. As for skywalks, I usually dont like them, and this case is no exception. It's competely unneccessary if you ask me.

[civitas]

In addition, they visually block urban vistas.

Here's the great vista on the north side of the hotel.

[mpchicago]

I'm not sold on the need for a skywalk here either. In the Chicago Loop there are a lot of underground pedways, but they leak and are expense. GR Dad is right, get out and breath in that fresh air no matter the time of year!

Is that step back I see on the right side of rendering the parking ramp? From this angle we have, it doesn

[Rizzo]

No I think skywalks can work if in context.

[egrguy]

isnt it up to the planning commission on the use of skywalks? i could be wrong but i thought the new hotel had to go to them to get their skywalk approved.

maybe we need new planning commissioners to stop making GR the world's largest outdoor hampster cage.

[joeDowntown]

I like it!

I think a skywalk could be cool if they really did it up. Something with a suspension bridge feel, very transparent, etc. Also, a skywalk with an arch would be pretty cool (if designed right). But I agree, they are generally ugly and block the view. But they are nice on a -5 degree day.

From the July issue of Heartland Real Estate Business.

The article says the building will include 860 parking spaces.

Fishbeck, Thompson, Carr & Huber - Architect

Rockford Construction - Contractor

[numstead]

I'm bored of this rendering already. Oh, and yet another rendering that doesn't have the virtual camera level with the virtual horizon. Notice the building seems to lean in at the edges of the image.

"E Street Theatre" makes no sense to me.

Why Arial font?

Why no scrolling marquee?

Why only one frame for movie posters?

Why Aeon flux? Probably because some "artist" had a hard-on.

Green curtain wall seems too suburban office park to me.

I'm not a fan of skywalks either.

I'll probably have more opinions later.

[GRDadof3]

I like it!

I think a skywalk could be cool if they really did it up. Something with a suspension bridge feel, very transparent, etc. Also, a skywalk with an arch would be pretty cool (if designed right). But I agree, they are generally ugly and block the view. But they are nice on a -5 degree day.

Come on Joe. We have -5 degree days once or twice a year. In fact, I don't think we had any this past year below 20 degrees. Seriously people, it's like 100' from one building to another. You park farther than that from the entrance at Meijer.

Skywalks = Bad Urban Design

[andrew.w]

I think that skywalks connecting a hotel or residential structure with a parking ramp that is dedicated to that structure are occationally acceptable. The skywalk would be useful for groceries, luggage, etc. If a city (like Chicago) has enough shopping draw people will naturaly walk and only use the skywalk when they plan to drive out of the city.

But this skywalk doesn't make much sense. I can't see anything going on the next block that would need its own shortcut to the public ramp.

Now, regarding the theater, I like what's happening with the diagonal and metal around the entrance, and the vertical CINEMA sign is an appropriate feature. However, I think the diagonal step backs on the side of the building will look almost the same as a flat, blank, brick wall from the other dirrection. I'm not by any means someone who needs transparencyon every part of a building (especially a parking ramp) but there needs to be some interest. Maybe concrete banding or something?

[torgo]

The more I look at the rendering the more I think its a pretty boring design. Sure, there is glass and ground floor retail and I'm all for that, and I think it will be a good addition to downtown if it eventually gets built, but the overall design is just kinda "par for the course", ya know? I guess I was hoping to be "wowed" a little more.

[GRDadof3]

The more I look at the rendering the more I think its a pretty boring design. Sure, there is glass and ground floor retail and I'm all for that, and I think it will be a good addition to downtown if it eventually gets built, but the overall design is just kinda "par for the course", ya know? I guess I was hoping to be "wowed" a little more.

You're being too kind Torgo. The more I look at it, the more revolted I am. Why such blandness? Do we not deserve better, just as long as they make their $8.00/bucket of popcorn??? Come on Tower Pinkster Titus, is this the best you've got? I've seen better looking parking garages.

And the E Street is the kicker. It's on WEST Oakes, West of the city numbering center.

I'm looking forward to hearing what golscorer4 has to add.

[civitas]

http://www.walkablestreets.com/skywalk.htm

A few quotes to help with the conversation....

''The skywalks were not the best-developed scheme in recent history and have not served us all that well,'' said Jim Tarbell, a Cincinnati councilman. As cities try to draw residents downtown with loft conversions and tax incentives, several are trying to divert pedestrians back to the street and do away with the walkways, which critics say are antiseptic and have transformed cities into places to pass through, not live in.

''At the time they were built, they were seen as a way of competing with the suburbs,'' said Dave Feehan, director of the International Downtown Association, a collection of city-center groups. ''Remember the fear of crime people had 20 years ago? Downtowns were seen as unsafe places and places people didn't want to be.'' But now? ''People are saying, if we had it to do all over again, we wouldn't do it,'' Feehan said.

''The skywalk - it's ugly, and the space underneath it is dark and yucky,'' said Charlie Luken, the mayor of Cincinnati. ''The whole area is dead too much of the day.'' The skywalks deteriorated over the years and were used mostly by office workers looking for cigarette breaks, city officials said.

''If you come here, people would think we have no retail at all,'' said Cheryl Myers, a senior vice president of Charlotte Center City Planners in North Carolina. In the 1970s, the city began building its Overstreet Mall, a series of retail shops on the second floor of office buildings, connected by skywalks. Today, the skywalks connect 30 downtown blocks, Myers said. ''Everyone knows it's a mistake,'' she said.

Des Moines began building its three miles of skywalks in 1982, arguing that the $10 million program would save the city. Twenty-three years later, city officials blame the skywalks for the ghostly sidewalks and ground-floor vacancy rates of 60 percent. There are no plans to rip down its skywalks, but the City Council has passed resolutions limiting them to a central Skywalk District downtown.

[hombre_de_ciudad]

I think you skywalk detractors are making good points, and I agree that a skywalk system such as in Minneapolis would have a detrimental affect on street level business. I'm all for encouraging pedestrian traffic in areas such as Monroe Center and along Ionia.

But I think skywalks do have good applications. Skywalks between entertainment venues and their parking lots and ramps can make a trip downtown more managable for people. For instance, I like the skywalk that takes me from the VanAndel arena through the building next door and to the Market/Fulton parking lot after a Griffins game. It's warm and quick.

I can also see why hotels want to be connected by skywalk to the convention center. If there is inclement weather, people want a comfortable way to move from their rooms to their meetings. If you want to argue they should go underground, that's fine too, but I think northern cities do need to make some accommodations to people who are not used to our winter cold and slop. Come January, even I don't like it and I've lived here for years.

[DMRyan]

The source for those quotes is heavily biased against skywalks.

In some cities they work, in some they don't. The combination of promoting a well connected skywalk system with shops and services and a good street level retail can be done, a la Minneapolis and Calgary. I'm going to reference Des Moines because it's what I know and it's what brought me to this thread. That quote must be dated because you will find no where near a 60 percent street level vacancy rate here.

I'll start off by saying I've historically never been the biggest fan from an urban design standpoint of skywalk systems in general. I was lead to believe or have seen the effects of lessened pedestrian traffic, views blocked, etc. In Des Moines' cold climate, the skywalk has actually been a very effective tool in keeping major corporations downtown. The latest numbers of downtown employment in little old Des Moines are near 74,000 people! While the street life/street retail scene isn't booming in a big city sense, the skywalks hardly deter people from pounding the pavement when it's nice out. The retail and restaurant space in Des Moines' skywalk system currently has almost a 100% occupancy rate, and we are currently experiencing a pretty major transition back to spaces in the street level with our latest downtown boom. I'm not arguing that skywalks are always a positive thing, or that downtown Des Moines (or any city) never saw a decrease in street level activity as a result of the skywalks. I'm saying that from a different viewpoint, bringing together a well connected and expansive skywalk system AND focusing on street level retail are two options that can co-exist, and produce tangible economic development benefits as well. I'm torn on the issue because my city (said to have the most skywalks miles per capita in the US) has seen both positives and negatives from the skywalks. There are at least 80-90 businesses in our skywalk system that could've very well been pushed to the street level to exist, adding thousands of people to downtown's sidewalks, but it's very well possible that more large businesses could've bolted to the suburbs without having the convienence that they bring in options of getting around downtown and connecting parking.

In cities that only put up a few skywalks that never really had that much connectivity, they probably don't make much sense. In cold climate cities that have invested in them to the point that St. Paul, Des Moines, Minneapolis, etc. have, they have become a way of life.

[GR_Urbanist]

It's done in the typical style of GR buildings. Brick, Boring, and Blocky.

in this case they used all three and added what looks like some random elements to try to "jazz" it up. Nothing that they attached to the face of this thing looks like it had any thought behind it. I dont even know if Im looking at the front of this building or some side entrance. The signage is horrible and adds nothing to the overall appearance.

It honestly looks like they mashed a bunch of unrelated buildings together and added pointless architectural elements.

[grcitydog]

IMO the fewer the number of skywalks, the better. I must agree that they do have their place in very limited circumstances, such as from a convention center to a hotel, but to construct a maze throughout the city is ridiculous. I agree with GR Dad, imagine downtown Chicago connected by skywalks! In addition to being expensive, hard on the eyes, and keeping people from street level retail, they also divide the city between those who can afford the convention centers and fancy hotels from the regular guy on the street. We can't have a great city unless we mix it up!

[civitas]

I'm going to reference Des Moines because it's what I know and it's what brought me to this thread. That quote must be dated because you will find no where near a 60 percent street level vacancy rate here.

From the May 7, 2006 Des Moines Register

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll...ESS04/605070330

Skywalks were a boon to employers whose offices were located on the skywalk system, but they killed street-level retail and created only a small window of extended noon-hour sales for stores that moved up to skywalk level. "It's been a big learning curve," said Jacobs, and while "the skywalks have been successful, we are now looking at ways to bring people back down to street level."

[DMRyan]

From the same article:

The loss of downtown retail was part of a national cultural change during the 1970s, '80s and '90s.

"I don't think any single merchants group anywhere could have prevented that," Greenfield said.

"Buffalo and Detroit and other cities didn't figure it out until it was too late," Greenfield said, but Des Moines employers knew 30 years ago they needed to keep a strong employment base downtown if the area would survive.

I'm not saying that skywalks aren't without their ills on the downtown scene, but there is more to it than street level retail. Maybe its a sign of the times here economically, but there is more street level retail open in Des Moines than there has been since probably the early 1970's (minus department stores), and this has managed to happen with the skywalk retail space at near full occupancy. Admittingly, Des Moines' biggest challenge has been getting the businesses in the skywalks to remain open during the evenings and weekends.

[GRDadof3]

Thanks for the input DMRyan. No one here is disparaging Des Moines and its downtown retail. But we're not talking about a convention center attached to a parking ramp. We're not talking about conventioneers rolling out of bed and stumbling over to "man their booths". And we're not talking about accomodating a bunch of Southerners having to "brave the elements" to go to a movie in downtown GR. We're talking about a bunch of people from Grand Rapids going to the movies, and hopefully spending more time downtown to do other things (which they are more likely to do if not contained to hampster tunnels). If people have a hard time spending 1.5 minutes outside in January in Michigan, they really need to take a look at their lifestyle.

I think any urban planner in this country would consider skywalks a great disappointment, no matter where they are built or for what purpose.

[numstead]

Why is there a gabled roof over the "megastore"?

HOUSES have gabled roofs! WALGREENS have faux gabled roofs!

Gabled roofs are inherently referential to pastoral architecture.

I can see both sides of the issue that is preserving and re-creating the traditional early 1900's Chicago-school architecture in Grand Rapids versus modernism in Grand Rapids (Amway hotels vs. Pantlind, 126 Ottawa SOM vs. 126 Ottawa VIA, 70 Ionia vs. Milner), but there is absolutely no place for gabled roofs in the urban core.

[plants tongue firmly in cheek before starting next sentence]

Yes, I would've torn down that old city hall too!