Who do we like for Governor?

[RustTown]

Actually, it is often the rich who are bribed the easiest. It's a little something called greed. The more you get the more you want. People that get rich don't get rich by mistake.

[RustTown]

On another note, I saw a new DeVos commercial, tonight. Apparently, DeVos, nearly single-handedly, turned around downtown Grand Rapids. Looks like he's trying to head of Granholm when she claims how she's helped turn around Michigan's cities.

[eagle]

Actually, it is often the rich who are bribed the easiest. It's a little something called greed. The more you get the more you want. People that get rich don't get rich by mistake.

Probably true about many but if you look at how the DeVos family created their wealth it's been from a consistent pattern of sharing, not greed. Their company is as large as it is because of sharing the wealth with all the families who distribute their products.

Heard two great examples of this the other day.

1.) Some years back Rich DeVos and Jay VanAndel personally purchased a bunch of Avon stock. At the time I guess they were looking to buy them out. After a period of time they scratched the idea and sold the stock. Keep in mind this was a personal business deal. They bought the stock and they sold it. True to their generosity, they decided to divide the substancial profits from the sale amongst their Amway distributors. These distributors didn't even know about the purchase and the sale but received a check with a percentage of the sale proceeds.

2.) When their business was getting of the ground in Panama the government stepped in and prohibited multi-level distribution. Amway was unable to sell a single product through their distributor force for over a year. The company knew that these distributors had worked hard to develop their businesses and were basically being shut down by the government. Amway froze their businesses at the levels they were before the shut-down and continued to pay them these monthly bonuses until the situation was worked out despite the fact that not a single product was being sold by these distributors.

Certainly not the selfish, greedy, evil capitalists that many make them out to be!

[RustTown]

Thanks for sharing, though my indictment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I was just answering to the poster before me that implied that the rich are less easily to be bribed. In fact, it is my opinion, that they are often the easiest to be bribed.

[hood]

Apparently, DeVos, nearly single-handedly, turned around downtown Grand Rapids.

He pretty much has. His developments alone are massive, I doubt anyone else would of built anything if he haden't started everything off.

[snoogit]

He pretty much has. His developments alone are massive, I doubt anyone else would of built anything if he haden't started everything off.

Umm no. Devos has helped, but most of his developments havent exactly turned around Grand Rapids, merely augmented the growth that was already happening.

I would give much much, much much much more credit to Spectrum Health, Jack Loeks, and Fred Meijer then to Alticor anyday.

[GRDadof3]

Even many Republicans here are scratching their heads at the Devos ads. Richard Devos (Dick Devos' Father) and Jay Van Andel may have been instrumental in reviving downtown since the 1980's, but Dick Devos?

However, it seems to have helped him in the polls:

http://fox17.trb.com/041106-wxmi-poll,0,66...oll=wxmi-home-2

[snoogit]

Initial campaign bump in the polls, once it starts getting dirty things will change. Right now Devos can play it safe and play happy ads, that make him look good, and aren't offensive in anyway. Come July-August things will get pretty dirty.

[Rizzo]

Grand Rapidians know who's responsible for the rebirth in downtown. Aparently, the eldest Devos is ok with his son using his image in the race. BTW that commercial is poor in showing Grand Rapids...

[twoshort]

Heh, I found this funny:

[MJLO]

You guys, i'm not going to pick one side or the other on this, but I would give Dick Devos credit for downtown, he didn't do it single handedly but he's definately made an impact. the company RDV, you know the one doing all the developement on the hill, among other projects, stands for Richard DeVos, not senior, but Dick Devos, and the Devos family was instrumental in the formation of the quickly becoming health giant, Spectrum. Not to mention GVSU's growing downtown campus is due in large part to Dick Devos. I'd say Richard senior hasn't truly had his hands in alot of downtown developement as of late. His son, who shares his name, has been instrumental.

[ben.schaafsma]

He pretty much has. His developments alone are massive, I doubt anyone else would of built anything if he haden't started everything off.

I hope you aren't serious. Dick Devos had nothing to do with the developments downtown, though his family did - mainly his father.

Remember all those layoffs at Amway in the last 5 year or so? I wonder whose fault that was?

[JDrew]

I hope you aren't serious. Dick Devos had nothing to do with the developments downtown, though his family did - mainly his father.

Remember all those layoffs at Amway in the last 5 year or so? I wonder whose fault that was?

And i hope that you are not serious. To say that Dick DeVos had nothing to do with the development of downtown is just a ridiculous statement. He, with others, started the group called Grand Action which has been in existence since 1991 and has been involved in redeveloping downtown GR ever since. He has been involved in a number of projects. Do some research before you throw out absolute phrases like "nothing to do with".

[Rizzo]

Man... I was 'n at the commercial with Mr. Devos driving through Ada? in a Town Car?... I love this dude; he's so spiffy with his pull over thingamajigs.

[RustTown]

I'm looking forward to this race more and more.

DeVos has a nearly endless supply of his own money to spend, but I'm beginning to wonder if his pacing will mess him up. Granholm has literally done nothing in terms of real campaigning, as of yet. I'm wondering if anyone thinks DeVos may be getting out of the gates too soon?

[GRDadof3]

I hope you aren't serious. Dick Devos had nothing to do with the developments downtown, though his family did - mainly his father.

Remember all those layoffs at Amway in the last 5 year or so? I wonder whose fault that was?

Anyone who comes into politics from the private sector will have worked for or run a company that laid people off. It's hardly a barometer of someone's worth. In fact, many times layoffs are needed to maintain profitability.

Should we not look seriously at Granholm because she has made budget cuts or cut State workers? That, in effect, is the same thing. Anyone in a leadership position has to make the tough calls at times.

But why anyone would want to leave the private sector and take the abuse and thankless job of public service is beside me.

[craig d]

And on second thought, if a reactionist is one who opposes the Marxist Revolution, doesn't that make a "planner" a Marxist?

Snoogit, are you a communist?

Not that it really matters, but you can't equate Marx with communist ideals brought about by stalin, lenin, chavez, castro, mao, etc. (not saying you were) All of those leaders f*d up the thought esp. stalin and lenin. That is why there are words like Stalinism and Leninism, Maoism...they have led tainted forms of communism.

Also, I want to know how the repubs on this board feel about Devos purposely not affiliating himself with the republican party in his "get to know who i am" advertisements.

[torgo]

Also, I want to know how the repubs on this board feel about Devos purposely not affiliating himself with the republican party in his "get to know who i am" advertisements.

I haven't seen one of his ads, but if he isn't affiliating himself with any party, I have two opinions. On one hand, I am tired of party-line kool-aid drinkers who decide to love or hate someone because they have ane R or D next to their name, so I kinda like it. That said, it seems kinda silly because everyone knows DeVos is a republican, so let's just call a spade a spade. You don't need to hide the fact that you are a republican or that you vote for republicans. I don't.

[MJLO]

Especially when you're aura is red!

[mejane]

How tall is Dick DeVos? I was under the impression he stood between 5'10" and 6'.

It amuses me how in one of the commercials he stands quite a bit taller than everyone

in the video, with maybe one exception. Those kinds of impressions are no accident.

It also amuses me how he is set up as a kind of messianic saviour of Grand Rapids.

It helped George, maybe his PR people think it will work for Dick. Nothing would

have worked for Betsy - she is the real politician in the family, but she put her foot

in her mouth too many times to be considered electable. Hence, we get Dick.

Also, the medical thing that the DeVos family meddled in - it really IS about business,

not about health care.

[eagle]

it really IS about business, not about health care.

All health care is about business. The profit motive is what gives the caregiver the incentive to provide good health care. The profit motive is why a company will spend billions of dollars researching new treatments. The potential profits is what causes a hospital to invest in new technology. All to beat the competition and make a profit. (Spectrum's actually non-profit but they still want your money! ) This all serves to benefit us as the consumer.

For example, we have one of the best EMS systems in the country here in Grand Rapids. It's all private (i.e. for profit.) I've worked for many different systems in different states and the system is better here by far. There's not a single subsidy or tax dollar coming from the communities that these companies serve. This setup demands that the companies provide the best care possible. The day they start providing substandard care they find themselves out of business.

Their number one goal is to make a profit. The only way for them to make a profit is to provide better care than anybody else.

[RustTown]

Eagle, your last post is so simplified and generalized it's not even funny. The seeking of higher profits doesn't always result in the best product, and both you and I know that. That last post almost sounds like a word-for-word, biased and spun-to-hell paragraph out of the Bible of Big Business. If it were that easy than there would very rarely be any bad products produced, and that is not within the realm of reality, at all. It's time to come down out of your ideological high-chair, and back down to the real world where millions of lives have been ruined, and entire companies completely brought down, in the solitary quest for greater profit margins. Please, let's not fool ourselves, there is an entire other side to this story, though I give you credit for a helluva spin.

[Rizzo]

Business theory aside. The reason why EMS makes profit is because I don't have a choice in how I arrive at the ER if I call 911. Lying down or sitting up, if I have insurance you're racking in the dough, no matter if the service is top quality or not. It's not like I can choose whether or not to go in an ambulance or which ever company can serve me when I'm having a heart attack and unconscious.

[MJLO]

All health care is about business. The profit motive is what gives the caregiver the incentive to provide good health care. The profit motive is why a company will spend billions of dollars researching new treatments. The potential profits is what causes a hospital to invest in new technology. All to beat the competition and make a profit. (Spectrum's actually non-profit but they still want your money! ) This all serves to benefit us as the consumer.

For example, we have one of the best EMS systems in the country here in Grand Rapids. It's all private (i.e. for profit.) I've worked for many different systems in different states and the system is better here by far. There's not a single subsidy or tax dollar coming from the communities that these companies serve. This setup demands that the companies provide the best care possible. The day they start providing substandard care they find themselves out of business.

Their number one goal is to make a profit. The only way for them to make a profit is to provide better care than anybody else.

The health care industry is not the best industry to use the free market system on, as it one of the most highly regulated industries of any industry that you can find. Most hospitals are also subsidized, that is why they would be non profit, it's pretty much illegal to make a profit on things people cant control, like the need to keep a house warm, or yes NOT dying. There are hospitals that are not subsidized, and can make profits, i.e the Mayo Clinic, but they are still restricted in what they can do as well. One of the biggest problems with the free market arguement, when it comes to hospitals and EMS services, is that there is never a gaurantee that their customers will pay. That goes back to the regulation, you can't deny a patient treatment, only try like hell to get your money back when a customer refuses to pay. Generally in the free market, payment is given before the service is rendered.

[eagle]

Business theory aside. The reason why EMS makes profit is because I don't have a choice in how I arrive at the ER if I call 911. Lying down or sitting up, if I have insurance you're racking in the dough, no matter if the service is top quality or not. It's not like I can choose whether or not to go in an ambulance or which ever company can serve me when I'm having a heart attack and unconscious.

Rizzo, it would seem to be this way but this isn't really how it works here in the Grand Rapids area. First of all, I'm not "racking in the dough!" As a paramedic with over 7 years experience I make less than the guy who shows up on our scenes to tow the cars away! (I know you meant the company's racking in the dough but I wanted to throw that in. ) EMS is actually quite a bit less profitable than you'd imagine. Most of our patients are medicare/medicaid which pays only a fraction of the costs of service; and their reimbursments continue to decrease. Another massive group of patients have no insurance, or use us for non-medically necessary reasons (determined not necessary by their insurance company = no payment) so we recover none of these costs. Plus local medical control and groups like the federal homeland security place requirements on the EMS services that can't be recovered by billing patients. For example, we recently had to add new 12-lead ECG monitors costing about $15,000 to each ambulance but we can't bill more for using them. Homeland security is requiring every medic to go through another incident management class but not paying for it. We of course can't bill our patients for the extra costs of putting all of us through this.

As far as choice goes you do have a choice between two competing ambulance services. A vast majority of EMS calls are to some type of facility, either jail, nursing home, Doctor's office, school, Urgent Care Center, office building, etc. These facilities usually exclusively use one ambulance service. Most students when they register at a school have to specify an ambulance preference, nursing home patients specify their preference, etc. When you're in a facility the choice may sometimes be made for you but a choice is still being made by someone based on the quality of the service. You've also probably seen the ads at somepoint too for ambulance memberships. And most people with "I've fallen and I can't get up" alarms specify which service they want notified in an emergency.

So you're right, if you're dying in your house you may not make a choice between services but a majority of our patients do. This requires us to provide the best service possible which you then benefit from when you need us.

Also, whether you make a choice or not, believe me, the city leaders are very aware of their city residents' satisfaction with their local EMS services. The fire and police agencies that we work with on a daily basis will not tolerate substandard service. The minute we start screwing up we won't be covering that area anymore. Either another service will be brought in or the city will take over.

Lmichigan, this isn't coming from an ideological, high-chair, Bible of Big Business spin zone. Just one humble paramedic on the streets opinion from real-world experience. My boss wants to stay in business and make a profit. For him to do that requires me to provide the best care possible.

I don't disagree that greed and the profit motive can sometimes lead to situations where individuals get hurt. It doesn't change the fact though that the health care industry is driven by the quest for your, and my healthcare dollars as I originally stated.

The pharmaceutical company (whom I have very significant problems with by the way) researches and develops a new drug in hopes of making a profit, not in hopes of curing you. The hospital invests in new equipment in hopes that you'll pay them thousands of dollars to use it, not necessarily because they care about your quality of life. You say I'm spinning it, I just see this as making more, and better, services available to us, the consumer that we wouldn't have otherwise!

I think we've made this one off topic enough for now!