Who do we like for Governor?

[snoogit]

What I dont get are these commercials on now that have various business people saying the tax system here is bad, and blah blah blah.

But everything I read puts Michigan in the top 10 of the most friendly places to do business... The commercials are a bad campaign, and an outright lie. Just another reason I couldn't find myself trusting Devos if he ever became governor.

[gvsusean]

The health care industry is not the best industry to use the free market system on, as it one of the most highly regulated industries of any industry that you can find. Most hospitals are also subsidized, that is why they would be non profit, it's pretty much illegal to make a profit on things people cant control, like the need to keep a house warm, or yes NOT dying. There are hospitals that are not subsidized, and can make profits, i.e the Mayo Clinic, but they are still restricted in what they can do as well. One of the biggest problems with the free market arguement, when it comes to hospitals and EMS services, is that there is never a gaurantee that their customers will pay. That goes back to the regulation, you can't deny a patient treatment, only try like hell to get your money back when a customer refuses to pay. Generally in the free market, payment is given before the service is rendered.

I agree and disagree..... I agree that the health care industry is WAY over regulated, however if it was a free market system it wouldnt have all the regulations and this has never been attempted, ergo we dont know if it would work or not (even though most of the time when a public system is privatized it becomes immensly more succesful )

[snoogit]

I dont think healthcare is overregulated. I think I agree with a lot of people who have looked at other industries that were deregulated, and I do not like what I see. One look at the Telco, and Media industries should prove this point, they're slowly being deregulated, and we are seeing the rise of AT&T again, as well as threats from these companies slowing down, or even excluding certain websites from using their services unless they pay a fee.

Last thing I would like to see is a heathcare industry use these same practices. Say Pfizer wants to charge rural hospitals more for their medicine because they don't use as much volume as urban hospitals do? or a company purposely underproducing a a drug so only the wealthiest patients can afford it? (which sometimes I wonder if this is already being done) deregulating heathcare could bring in many many problems.

[gvsusean]

I dont think healthcare is overregulated. I think I agree with a lot of people who have looked at other industries that were deregulated, and I do not like what I see. One look at the Telco, and Media industries should prove this point, they're slowly being deregulated, and we are seeing the rise of AT&T again, as well as threats from these companies slowing down, or even excluding certain websites from using their services unless they pay a fee.

Last thing I would like to see is a heathcare industry use these same practices. Say Pfizer wants to charge rural hospitals more for their medicine because they don't use as much volume as urban hospitals do? or a company purposely underproducing a a drug so only the wealthiest patients can afford it? (which sometimes I wonder if this is already being done) deregulating heathcare could bring in many many problems.

OK..... basic econ 101, ya the small hospital may get charged more but unlikely no reason to charge more or people would stop going to rural hospitals and go to cheaper ones in the city, plus competition would mop the floors with them ( i realize they are patents on drugs for like 15 years, im still working on that one), It would alos be unbeneficial to charge huge prices with underproduction unless the price was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo high that having ALOT of people buy your drug cheaper would be less than only a few at high prices (which again competition will fix) I guess what i am trying to say is free markets tend to work themselves out, maybe not right away, but eventually they will.

[michaelskis]

What I dont get are these commercials on now that have various business people saying the tax system here is bad, and blah blah blah.

But everything I read puts Michigan in the top 10 of the most friendly places to do business... The commercials are a bad campaign, and an outright lie. Just another reason I couldn't find myself trusting Devos if he ever became governor.

Small business tax in Michigan makes it difficult for small mom and pop businesses and many start-up companies. Additionally those that are successful at starting up here tend to move to other sates.

I personally think that DeVos will to a much better job. He knows how businesses work, he knows how to keep jobs in Michigan, he wants to revitalize urban cores, and work hard to find a good balance. While he is a Republican, he has a centralist side that show with his education ideas, environment, and urban growth policies.

[snoogit]

Small business tax in Michigan makes it difficult for small mom and pop businesses and many start-up companies. Additionally those that are successful at starting up here tend to move to other sates.

I personally think that DeVos will to a much better job. He knows how businesses work, he knows how to keep jobs in Michigan, he wants to revitalize urban cores, and work hard to find a good balance. While he is a Republican, he has a centralist side that show with his education ideas, environment, and urban growth policies.

Don't we have a "businessman" in another office in this country, who has shown us it doesn't work?

Buisness intelligence does not equal political intelligence.

[MJLO]

I would never refer to Dick Devos as a centralist, unless I were refering to political pandering. He comes from one of the most right wing fortress holds in the country. It was his wife, and her mother who pushed some very neo-conservative agendas on this state in the last election.

I think he would be good for fiscal responsibility, But i'd be terrified that we'd throw the social advances of the last 40 years out the window.

[MJLO]

OK..... basic econ 101, ya the small hospital may get charged more but unlikely no reason to charge more or people would stop going to rural hospitals and go to cheaper ones in the city, plus competition would mop the floors with them ( i realize they are patents on drugs for like 15 years, im still working on that one), It would alos be unbeneficial to charge huge prices with underproduction unless the price was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo high that having ALOT of people buy your drug cheaper would be less than only a few at high prices (which again competition will fix) I guess what i am trying to say is free markets tend to work themselves out, maybe not right away, but eventually they will.

ok there is one massive flaw with this arguement, when i'm going to the hospital, usually, it's an emergency, If I'm at UMH in Greenville, and i'm having a lethal Asthma attack, I don't have time to say you know what, UMH charges to much, I think I'll drive the extra 40 minutes to GR to avoid the expense. If I did that, I would die! Most of the time, when someone has to go to the hospital, it's out of a dire need. You cant really shop for hospitals like you do car insurance. While there are alot of cases, where you can pick and choose medical care, when you're talking about hospitals, If someone will die, if they don't get treatment, you can't let the free market decide that. In Econ 101, it's the flaw of the free market. It's the part where there are certain goods and serices, that need government intervention. Like a police force, or a national defense. I think it's good that Hospitals are only semi private. You cant refuse someone treatment, if they cant pay for a good or service such as that. It's a moral thing. It's the flaw of the market.

[gvsusean]

ok there is one massive flaw with this arguement, when i'm going to the hospital, usually, it's an emergency, If I'm at UMH in Greenville, and i'm having a lethal Asthma attack, I don't have time to say you know what, UMH charges to much, I think I'll drive the extra 40 minutes to GR to avoid the expense. If I did that, I would die! Most of the time, when someone has to go to the hospital, it's out of a dire need. You cant really shop for hospitals like you do car insurance. While there are alot of cases, where you can pick and choose medical care, when you're talking about hospitals, If someone will die, if they don't get treatment, you can't let the free market decide that. In Econ 101, it's the flaw of the free market. It's the part where there are certain goods and serices, that need government intervention. Like a police force, or a national defense. I think it's good that Hospitals are only semi private. You cant refuse someone treatment, if they cant pay for a good or service such as that. It's a moral thing. It's the flaw of the market.

At the same time going only semi-private leads to the extreme prices we are seeing...... in that rural setting (assuming we were at a free market) would another hospital not go into that rural area if they would make a profit, underpricing the higher cost hospital??? I know your thinking ya, but who would want to go into a small rural area with small profits, the answer if there is profit to be made someone will... I agree that there are certain markets that need govt intervention but healthcare is not it... as far as refusing treatment and all I agree they shouldnt be allowed to refuse for severe injuries or causes... Finally, If it doesnt go one way or another soon, we will see either completely public healthcare or hopefully comp. private.

[MJLO]

healthcare costs so much in part, because of the regulated insurance agencies, there's a good chance even a person without insurance isn't feeling the full brunt of the healthcare costs. Gov't protects people from medical collections to an extent. you can have a 20,000k hospital bill, and pay $10 a month on it pretty much(although i know that's a bit extreme). Healthcare costs so much I think in part, to the fact that it's not the consumer paying for the drugs, or the visit, so much as the individuals health insurance. I also know that's not an absolute either. since there are quite a few people who dont have health insurance. But without that regulation, alot more people would die. I guess that could be attributed to the survival of the fittest.

[snoogit]

healthcare costs so much in part, because of the regulated insurance agencies, there's a good chance even a person without insurance isn't feeling the full brunt of the healthcare costs. Gov't protects people from medical collections to an extent. you can have a 20,000k hospital bill, and pay $10 a month on it pretty much(although i know that's a bit extreme). Healthcare costs so much I think in part, to the fact that it's not the consumer paying for the drugs, or the visit, so much as the individuals health insurance. I also know that's not an absolute either. since there are quite a few people who dont have health insurance. But without that regulation, alot more people would die. I guess that could be attributed to the survival of the fittest.

Health insurance companies are the same way though, they dont front the entire bill, infact most providers are lucky if they get 35% of the bill paid by the insurance company. Whats awful are the insurance plans that still will charge you the entire co-pay even though the drug costs less then the co-pay.

The insurance industry is most certainly not regulated enough. not if they can get away with co-pay gouging like that.

[gvsusean]

healthcare costs so much in part, because of the regulated insurance agencies, there's a good chance even a person without insurance isn't feeling the full brunt of the healthcare costs. Gov't protects people from medical collections to an extent. you can have a 20,000k hospital bill, and pay $10 a month on it pretty much(although i know that's a bit extreme). Healthcare costs so much I think in part, to the fact that it's not the consumer paying for the drugs, or the visit, so much as the individuals health insurance. I also know that's not an absolute either. since there are quite a few people who dont have health insurance. But without that regulation, alot more people would die. I guess that could be attributed to the survival of the fittest.

I guess thats kind of my point...... they are regulated regulation is not free market

[Yankee Fan]

So it looks like statewide they are now in a dead heat. Should start to get interesting.

[MJLO]

Yankee fan where do you get your polling data, and how did she go from having a twenty point margin, to having a dead heat??

[RustTown]

DeVos has spent millions of dollards on T.V. adds and Granholm has yet to officially start her campaign including having not spent any of her money yet, that's how it's narrowed into a dead statistical heat. Nothing is done yet.

[Yankee Fan]

Here is one link to site that I frequent:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2006/State...nor%20March.htm

[gvsusean]

DeVos has spent millions of dollards on T.V. adds and Granholm has yet to officially start her campaign including having not spent any of her money yet, that's how it's narrowed into a dead statistical heat. Nothing is done yet.

Are dollards worth more than dollars??

[RustTown]

It was an obvious typo.

[civitas]

This political "message" caught my eye while leaving the parking ramp tonight.

The ramp is next to RDV's offices. Hmmmm.....

[Allison Slater]

Maybe it's an unfinished sentence? "Keep Right (Empty, Go Left)"

=p

[twoshort]

This political "message" caught my eye while leaving the parking ramp tonight.

The ramp is next to RDV's offices. Hmmmm.....

[grandrapidsdude123]

Yeah, maybe we could get a Jesse Ventura/ Ted Nugent ticket.

Nugent was talking about running a few years ago.

At least that would have been an entertaining race

[Nitro]

Nugent was talking about running a few years ago.

Hmmmm........What about a Cheney/Nugent ticket????.......Think about that one for a minute.

[MJLO]

eep. violent deaths due to gun shot wounds on the rise in Michigan.

[Yankee Fan]

I understand that everything is spin in a race like this, but I am confused by something that maybe someone here can help me with. I continue to hear Grandholm blame Michigan's woes on free trade agreements and President Bush. This makes no sense to me because it was actually Bill Clinton who signed NAFTA into law and pushed for increased trade with China. So, when she points to our State's economy and says that it is the Republicans and, in particular, President Bush who we should blame, is that not beyond misleading?

Just to clarify, I am not a republican.