Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[Mobuchu]

Charlotte just added its share of property at spirit square to the land swap deal. The county land in 3rd ward where the baseball stadium would go is valued at 28mil. The Marshal park site is totaled at 19mil. So the city threw in spirit square to even the #'s. Check out the video.

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top...RegionCookie=12

I'm at the point where I dont mind the smaller park. It will have a broader range of users and times with the proximity to the office towers. But I still dont want baseball in third ward. It's too close to Panthers stadium and I fear very little retail space will be added to the site.

This is a tough topic...

[reverbandwhiskey]

1. I don't want a dime of taxpayer money wasted on another stadium.

2. If MLB wants a team here, they can pay to move the Knights to another city. The value of the land that the Knights stadium will sit on will be more than enough to cover destroying the stadium.

3. I hope the land swap gets finalized soon and the Knights can break ground on their stadium soon. I wonder if they could have one ready for the 2007 season?

[SmellyCat]

I wonder if they could have one ready for the 2007 season?

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way they could get one built by then. Most likely it would be ready for the 2008 season.

[Subway Scoundrel]

But I still dont want baseball in third ward. It's too close to Panthers stadium and I fear very little retail space will be added to the site.

This is a tough topic...

I am no expert but in some cities I have been in, it appears baseball parks generally drive more businesses around them. One reason I think is there are more games, so more days of traffic. And for pro football, it is on Sundays and people are arriving in the morning.

Just one example and maybe not a good one is Denver. When Coors field was built, it opened up the LoDo (lower DT Denver) and that place started to sprout. Where football fields tend to be more destinations, baseball seems more neighborly. I think it has to do with the hulking size of football stadiums. It just seems a baseball park size is more urban. At least the new parks are.

Now there is no football stadium in Durham DT, but the Bulls (AAA) DT park has really opened up that end of DT and will continue to do so.

Again, this is just my opinion

[cinco]

Now there is no football stadium in Durham DT, but the Bulls (AAA) DT park has really opened up that end of DT and will continue to do so.

Again, this is just my opinion

really... that's good to hear. when i lived in durham (96-98), around the new stadium was "no-man's land".

my opinion on the 3rd ward triple A ballpark hasn't changed. i know i'm in the minority here, and i'm sure this landswap deal has already happened behind closed doors... but i still think a 9 acre park will attract more business and residential around it.

most here probably don't remember or experienced a charlotte o's baseball game @ crockett park... in southend. i have emotional (historical) reasons for it being there, but other than that i also think that the ballpark would help the southend area solidify it's niche more than it could ever do uptown. IMO.

[Mobuchu]

Well I hope your right. And hopefully the city will require a decent amount of retail on the street fronts. The knights are going to build this themselves and with no development in the area right now they may not have the vision to put retail in that wont be used for a couple years.

On a different note, wasn't there extra space on the north side of the parcel that would not be used by the stadium? Maybe they can throw in a condo or office tower there.

[Arlyn15]

I personally don't want any taxpayer money going toward Major League Baseball...at least not now. Let's let the Bobcat's debacle play out first. Right now we can't get 16,000 people out to arena twice a week, try getting 30,000+ out four nights a week.

I'm also not excited about the prospect of moving the Knights to uptown. To me that is a signal to everyone, that we are a "minor league" city. We want to be Atlanta (but better), not Durham.

[redjeep77]

most here probably don't remember or experienced a charlotte o's baseball game @ crockett park... in southend. i have emotional (historical) reasons for it being there, but other than that i also think that the ballpark would help the southend area solidify it's niche more than it could ever do uptown. IMO.

oh yeah man, i do recall a couple of games there. It was nice having a park in town before the fire destroyed it.

[eastsider]

I'm also not excited about the prospect of moving the Knights to uptown. To me that is a signal to everyone, that we are a "minor league" city. We want to be Atlanta (but better), not Durham.

So the only projects that should be built in Charlotte are things that will impress people in other cities instead of building things for the existing residents of the city? Why not build something in downtown that all people could afford to use. The highest ticket price in Durham is only $8 and the cheapest I believe is $5.

I have been to the AAA ballparks in the Durham, Memphis, and Oklahoma City. All are great downtown ballparks that draw diverse crowds and are a part of the community. Autozone Park in Memphis is truely an outstanding park that has a "major league" feel the second that you walk into it. Considering that the Knights have hired the same architect that did the Memphis and Durham ballparks, as well as many major league parks like Camden Yards, I think Charlotte will get something that the city can embrace. I think many opinions will change once the ballpark is built and many of you have the chance to attend a game.

[cinco]

So the only projects that should be built in Charlotte are things that will impress people in other cities instead of building things for the existing residents of the city? Why not build something in downtown that all people could afford to use. The highest ticket price in Durham is only $8 and the cheapest I believe is $5.

I have been to the AAA ballparks in the Durham, Memphis, and Oklahoma City. All are great downtown ballparks that draw diverse crowds and are a part of the community. Autozone Park in Memphis is truely an outstanding park that has a "major league" feel the second that you walk into it. Considering that the Knights have hired the same architect that did the Memphis and Durham ballparks, as well as many major league parks like Camden Yards, I think Charlotte will get something that the city can embrace. I think many opinions will change once the ballpark is built and many of you have the chance to attend a game.

well, all people could afford to use a 9 acre park... i know, we will still be getting a 5 acre park. look, i'm game... if the peeps of charlotte want minor league action uptown - then so be it. i will go to a number of games and enjoy it, but my opinion of this park is rooted more in future planning for the city.

[Arlyn15]

So the only projects that should be built in Charlotte are things that will impress people in other cities instead of building things for the existing residents of the city? Why not build something in downtown that all people could afford to use. The highest ticket price in Durham is only $8 and the cheapest I believe is $5.

I have been to the AAA ballparks in the Durham, Memphis, and Oklahoma City. All are great downtown ballparks that draw diverse crowds and are a part of the community. Autozone Park in Memphis is truely an outstanding park that has a "major league" feel the second that you walk into it. Considering that the Knights have hired the same architect that did the Memphis and Durham ballparks, as well as many major league parks like Camden Yards, I think Charlotte will get something that the city can embrace. I think many opinions will change once the ballpark is built and many of you have the chance to attend a game.

My point was that if you look at Charlotte's growth over the next 10 years, you could be at a point where Major League Baseball makes sense. If you commit today to a minor league team, you risk wasting the prime real estate that could occupy a major league team in the future. You don't set up an above-ground pool in your backyard until you can save enough money to put in an in-ground pool. It just wastes resources.

[AuLukey]

Well, as much as I hate saying this over and over, the arena did a lot more good for our city than anybody could have predicted, and it's still barely two years old. I bet half of the condos, if even that, would have been developed had it not been for the arena.

MLB or no MLB, somebody tell me of an example of when a minor league team had to move out of a city because MLB was put there. I'm unaware of any, but I would imagine that, given ticket prices, the two draw different crowds and, thus, wouldn't compete with each other.

As stated before, you have 2 (maybe 3) games a week with the nba and sometimes as many as 4 in a week for baseball. That brings a more continuous crowd in over the summer, which people tend to spend more time walking around outdoors in the summer. So now you have an extra 20k people running around uptown for an even longer period of time than basketball fans. At $5-8 a ticket, these people are going to have money left over. I hope that the designers of the baseball stadium decide to put in street level retail and, like the arena, hold off on opening them until the market is ripe. Same with the NHOF, I hope there is a great deal of retail built up in its proximity to prey on tourists. Tourists=money, Charlotte needs money.

[atlrvr]

This was just posted on the CBJ website as part of a description of the land swap plans.

Mass Mutual would end up with a prime piece of county property in Second Ward that is valued at $29.6 million. However, a 4-acre piece of the Second Ward tract will be carved out for a county park, lowering the final value delivered to Mass Mutual.

The company plans to use the Second Ward land, which includes an assemblage of Marshall Park and the site of the headquarters of Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools through a swap with the county, for development of an office condominium tower, 284 apartments, 410 condominiums and 35,000 square feet of retail space.

CMS would occupy two floors in the office tower as partial compensation for giving up its building in Second Ward.

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte...tml?jst=b_ln_hl

This is the first time I've seen specifics on how much development would occur in 2nd Ward. I'm a bit skeptical about how tall an office condo tower would be, but it is interesting that CMS would commit to space.

The total parcels in 2nd Ward are about 16 acres, of which 12 will be devloped. That give a population density of about 57 dua, or 55,000 people per square mile....not too bad....now just pray for architecture better than CityView Towers, and for God's sake, NO EIFS!!!

[monsoon]

, i'm game... if the peeps of charlotte want minor league action uptown - then so be it.

I am not sure the peeps want it. If they were being honest about it, they would put it on the ballot this fall and ask if the county residents would like to see a park or knights stadium on that property.

[AuLukey]

I am not sure the peeps want it. If they were being honest about it, they would put it on the ballot this fall and ask if the county residents would like to see a park or knights stadium on that property.

I bet you that a citywide vote would reflect a baseball stadium, a vote taken by just people in uptown would easily choose the park. Unfortunately I don't think the latter is possible.

[monsoon]

I bet you that a citywide vote would reflect a baseball stadium, a vote taken by just people in uptown would easily choose the park. Unfortunately I don't think the latter is possible.

Exactly the opposite happened when the voters were asked if they wanted an arena downtown. Since the county owns that land, it ought to be a ballot for Mecklenburg county voters. It was their taxes that paid for it.

[dubone]

It's a good thing thing that the county and city leaders don't put every micro-decision about everything into a one or two sentence Yes or No question on a ballot in a midterm election in which only the most obscure and extreme voters vote.

The land swap solves a host of issues, and I'm glad that the city leaders are moving forward. In the end, if the people don't like their choices they can vote them out of office, as they did with Lynn Wheeler.

However, as this plan gains two well designed urban parks, a well designed urban minor league ball park, a more appropriate school system headquarters, and housing in an otherwise desolate part of downtown, I doubt there will be any politicians that will lose their jobs from this. And thus, the silent majority will continue to be pleased.

I'm excited to see how dense the projects will be in second ward. That will really get that neighborhood off to a good start in its pursuit of a resurgence. Hopefully, with Spectrum's supposed use of hardcoat stucco on 230 S Tryon, it is a sign of things to come. Architecture, though, will remain to be seen, but I believe they are promising to be bound by the Second Ward Master Plan, which called for architectural variations.

[AuLukey]

Exactly the opposite happened when the voters were asked if they wanted an arena downtown. Since the county owns that land, it ought to be a ballot for Mecklenburg county voters. It was their taxes that paid for it.

While I know well of the arena debacle, that was different. Taxpayers paid for the arena itself. That's why it got "voted" down. All I've heard are good things about the Knights moving uptown giving more variety and entertainment uptown. The baseball stadium has few people opposed to the actual building itself, just to the fact that it will cover land a park would've been on.

[monsoon]

Maybe you ought to re-read this thread. There are plenty of people here concerned with the very negative impacts of building that stadium.

[Charlotteman]

I agree 100% with arlyn's earlier statement. Why waste this breathtaking location on a AAA park?

A 9 acre inner city park sounds a hell of a lot more appealing to me:) Charlotte Commons?

[peaceloveunderstanding]

It should be a park, the Knights and/or MLB should go in South End.

But what will happen is that the Minor League Stadium will go in 3rd Ward and that land sweap deal will take place. It sounds good from a financial standpoint, and the city likes to make a little extra money.

[krazeeboi]

^I agree with moonshield on the ballpark's location. Either way, the park is going to be too small. A 9-acre signature park for a city approaching 700K and metro of 2M+? Come on...

[A2]

really... that's good to hear. when i lived in durham (96-98), around the new stadium was "no-man's land".

my opinion on the 3rd ward triple A ballpark hasn't changed. i know i'm in the minority here, and i'm sure this landswap deal has already happened behind closed doors... but i still think a 9 acre park will attract more business and residential around it.

most here probably don't remember or experienced a charlotte o's baseball game @ crockett park... in southend. i have emotional (historical) reasons for it being there, but other than that i also think that the ballpark would help the southend area solidify it's niche more than it could ever do uptown. IMO.

^^^cinco I am with you man. ^^^

Booo Hisss Boooo Hissss. A2 does not want some dumpy piece of crap AAA stadium on what is probably the best piece of Prime Real Estate left in Center City CLT. Make it a Park. We will never get this chance again to create something that will last GENERATIONS!!!!!

AAA baseball, while nice, is a waste in a city that will be looking at inviting a Major team within ten years. Plus that stadium will probably be worth less that what the land cost that it sits on. This is a waste of effort, time and money IMO. For those thinking that the Minor Leauge Stadium is driving condos around the area, you must be kidding. The best place to live in larger cities like NYC is off the the Park. Everyone wants to be off of a Park. Would you buy a condo when they list such amentities as a MINOR LEAGUE Stadium is in your front yard?!

(not me)

A2

[dubone]

Where is this extra acre coming from? How did the original site for 3rd Ward Park suddenly become a "9" acre park? The site itself is 8 acres, and with the transportation needs as a result of the closure of 3rd street, it would likely be shaved down a bit from that.

The county hired experts on how to not repeat the mistakes of Marshall Park. They warned that they did not recommend going forward with the original site, and recommended finding a way to get a site closer to Tryon, even if it yielded a slightly smaller park.

The reasons are that the old site is too far to draw casual visitors from Tryon during the day, and the development sites around it are not as viable. The new site, however, has sites that are so good that Novare has already purchased them for their developments over the next few years. And those developments will be far far denser than would happen in the case of the original site.

I know that the stadium is the controversial element of this, but to me a large draw of people/visitors is good, regardless of whether it is seassonal or not. Societal efficiency is gained by locating it uptown, as parking resources would be underutilized at this time. Not to mention the tens of billions of dollars in transportation infrastructure to get people from the metro region in and out of downtown.

And all the other fringe benefits in 2nd Ward just make this a winner in my book. And in real life, I have heard exponentially more people being for this than against it.

[A2]

Where is this extra acre coming from? How did the original site for 3rd Ward Park suddenly become a "9" acre park? The site itself is 8 acres, and with the transportation needs as a result of the closure of 3rd street, it would likely be shaved down a bit from that.

The county hired experts on how to not repeat the mistakes of Marshall Park. They warned that they did not recommend going forward with the original site, and recommended finding a way to get a site closer to Tryon, even if it yielded a slightly smaller park.

The reasons are that the old site is too far to draw casual visitors from Tryon during the day, and the development sites around it are not as viable. The new site, however, has sites that are so good that Novare has already purchased them for their developments over the next few years. And those developments will be far far denser than would happen in the case of the original site.

I know that the stadium is the controversial element of this, but to me a large draw of people/visitors is good, regardless of whether it is seassonal or not. Societal efficiency is gained by locating it uptown, as parking resources would be underutilized at this time. Not to mention the tens of billions of dollars in transportation infrastructure to get people from the metro region in and out of downtown.

And all the other fringe benefits in 2nd Ward just make this a winner in my book. And in real life, I have heard exponentially more people being for this than against it.

I agree with your postives about the Park and the Stadium with the benifits and all, but ultimately if Charlotte concedes to an Uptown location for the stadium we can hang up the idea of MLB. The goodies that come out of the deal now would be GREAT if Charlotte were to remian stagnant in growth, but the truth is that we are growing so fast it is hard for me (A UP junkie ) to keep up.

I guess Raleigh will be the big winner. MLB IS COMING TO THE 12MILLION STRONG IN THE CAROLINAS. The question now is where will it go??? There is NO DOUBT a market. There is OVER 6,500,000 within a 100 mile radius of CLT.

With the current plan in place the mods and admins of the site need to just shut down this thread since CLT's fate will have already been decided when the first shovel goes into the ground to build a MINORLEAGUE STADIUM in a soon to be Major Legue City.

I am all for The Triangle and the Triad if Charlotte is so short- sighted not to see this.

I thought Charlotte called herself a "can-do" city. This is a step backwards IMO.

A2