Baseball in Charlotte, which will happen?

[New Name]

Ahh, if that is still true then it does get interesting. Why and who would pay Diehl to use the courts to stop this deal from going through.

[cooperdawg]

Great point, not only can we not support a third franchise, without a salary cap, I wouldn't want a team here anyways.

[uptownliving]

This potential lawsuit is being brought on by Jerry Reese. He is the one that has retained Bill Deihl and his lawfirm. Both Jerry and Bill were at the County Commision meeting last night. Jerry was the one that spoke for about 20 minutes and Bill was allowed to speaked but deffered his time to Jerry.

Jerry Reese is the guy that has been trying to bring MLB to Charlotte for a very long time now. He has had more than ample time to line up investors and credible people behind him to make the plan work, but to his own admission last night he has no one lined up at this point.

This potenital lawsuit by him seems to be a last ditch effort on his part to force the City and County to deal with him and spend even MORE tax dollars to fund HIS plan for baseball downtown.

[graydog]

As was stated at the county commission meeting Tuesday night, if this deal is approved, the county will lease the stadium land to the Knights for $1 per year. There are 2 effects.

First, the county does not receive any money for the land that was paid for with our property tax dollars. Second, because the county will still own the land, it cannot tax it. There is no other way to see this except as a county (taxpayer) subsidy.

Whether or not Jerry Reece's lawsuit prevails, at least he will delay it. Worst case is we'll get to keep our money longer. Unfortunately that still ties up the money that could be used for schools or even given back to the taxpayers.

[nowensone]

^Aren't about a third of the lots inside the loop unoccupied and owned by the city or county and therefore generating no tax value? And if the stadium stimulates the building of residential towers, for example, isn't the resulting tax income far in excess of the "subsidy"? You might argue this would happen anyway, but speeding the process by 10 years or so results in additional tax dollars in at least the $20,000,000 dollar range.

[Charlotte_native]

There is no other way to see this except as a county (taxpayer) subsidy.

Whether or not Jerry Reece's lawsuit prevails, at least he will delay it. Worst case is we'll get to keep our money longer. Unfortunately that still ties up the money that could be used for schools or even given back to the taxpayers.

[uptownliving]

As was stated at the county commission meeting Tuesday night, if this deal is approved, the county will lease the stadium land to the Knights for $1 per year. There are 2 effects.

[dubone]

The lawyer for the county board said that he believed the law was clear, that as long as those $9m in bond funds went entirely to a park, and not the baseball stadium, it was legal. There was money spent on that land, but it was before the bond referendum even was put for a vote, so that isn't part of the restriction. The only leg to stand on is that there was some money spent on clearing buildings from that land for the park (or really for anything that will go there), so that money would simply need to be repaid (plus interest) to the park fund to make it whole.

I got nervous when I heard Bill James talk about that as tainting the land from ever being used for baseball, but the county lawyer was unequivocal that as long as the funds are restored, that there is no problem with using that site.

It will be very interesting to see how this turns out. At this point, though, if the law suit prevails, plan B would be to do all the other elements of the land swap, but simply sell the 8 acre land at market value. That means, there is no longer the option for that 8 acre land being used for the 3rd Ward park. If that happens, it would be interesting if one of the banks stepped in and offered a similar leasing agreement to the Knights.

[monsoon]

I am assuming that county lawyer will get a chance to argue his opinion in front of some judge who will decide what happens.

[dubone]

Yes, and it obviously is up to a judge. However, his confidence made me more confident. But it doesn't ring true that it would forever block a stadium from that land.

[graydog]

^Aren't about a third of the lots inside the loop unoccupied and owned by the city or county and therefore generating no tax value? And if the stadium stimulates the building of residential towers, for example, isn't the resulting tax income far in excess of the "subsidy"? You might argue this would happen anyway, but speeding the process by 10 years or so results in additional tax dollars in at least the $20,000,000 dollar range.

[Charlotte_native]

I am assuming that county lawyer will get a chance to argue his opinion in front of some judge who will decide what happens.

[browngeo]

Quick Read...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/c...&id=2727901

Mostly talks about Portland but thought it was relevant to this topic

[cityboi]

I found these links. I dont think no one has posted these here yet.

nice view!

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Great ESPN article. I'm one who thinks that MLB isn't "that" far off, especially when one considers the "Carolina" equation. Charlotte alone - today, January 2007 - can not support a MLB team. If the 2026 projections are correct, we could support one in about 10 or so years. Even so, the "Carolina Piedmont Crescent" (GSO to RDU) is currently home to over 7 million people and is largest geographic area (in terms of population) without an MLB team. That said, I think that building a stadium in uptown is a great idea but I think that building one without room to expand to accomodate MLB is unreasonable and short-sighted.

[dubone]

Those renderings have been in a few powerpoint presentations to city council and the county commission. It is good to see them again after not seeing them a while, as it allows for a fresh look.

The 3d rendering is a bit useless in that surroundings aren't even showing Charlotte, so it is hard to believe that ould actually be the design.

The siteplan does seem to show ample space for retail fronting the street. I really hope they take advantage of that space.

[hinsp0]

Great ESPN article. I'm one who thinks that MLB isn't "that" far off, especially when one considers the "Carolina" equation. Charlotte alone - today, January 2007 - can not support a MLB team. If the 2026 projections are correct, we could support one in about 10 or so years. Even so, the "Carolina Piedmont Crescent" (GSO to RDU) is currently home to over 7 million people and is largest geographic area (in terms of population) without an MLB team. That said, I think that building a stadium in uptown is a great idea but I think that building one without room to expand to accomodate MLB is unreasonable and short-sighted.

[New Name]

Does anyone know what Jerry Reese is proposing instead of the third ward park? Does anyone know what land he has in mind in second ward?

I started to wonder what this would mean for a lot of projects - if he actually does stop the landswap.

Does is take land away from the area that is being pinned to encompace the new Brooklyn area in second ward? And I was under the assumption that the dedication of MLK St. leading from the parcells in thridward to the Brooklyn parcells in second ward was all part of the big picture (a proud historical street leading to a proud historical rebuilt area).

But if Reese stops the landswap. Where does it lead the connectivity?

[Justadude]

I\'m just disappointed that SouthEnd isn\'t anywhere in the conversation for a ballpark. I believe it would be a far superior location for that kind of project, and would really increase usage of the rail line (which could use the support, given the politics of the hour).

I like the idea of the 2nd Ward renovation, but 3rd Ward -- and especially that block -- is the wrong place for another sports venue. BoA is already a dead-zone 347 days a year, but that effect would be exponentially increased by having another stadium a block away that would be empty 280 days a year. Downtown stadiums are cool, but I think we\'ve got enough eggs in that basket already. A block of mixed use would be far, far more healthy for the long term progress of the neighborhood.

[dubone]

Jerry Reese basically tallied up all the public land in 2nd Ward, put a LandDesign drawing together showing a billion dollar retractable roof stadium, a fictional tenant, and an equally fictional market for a $4billion in development to cover the stadium costs.

I'll be honest, now that the Republican's counter proposal have decoupled the new park location and 2nd Ward development from the baseball, I am less fanatical about the baseball. I wanted 2nd Ward and the better park location much more than I wanted baseball. I still hold firm that they MUST put as much retail space on the street level as possible. The dead zone argument doesn't hold as much water for me as others on this site, because I walk and run through the current state regularly, and it is epitome of urban death (it is gravel surface lots right now certainly with brownfield waste underground). The 280 days without a game could still be activated with clever connections to the park, street retail, and event creation.

[Justadude]

I agree that something is always better than nothing, but I would hate to be stuck with a permanent dead-zone rather than a temporary one. The park, and related vertical development surrounding it, will be there regardless of the stadium and will definitely trigger "quality" development on that block one way or another. Even if it takes another couple of years for the right project to come along, I think it's worth the patience to make sure that there's something on that part of SMint St. to organically connect it to the Morehead St. area (assuming that appropriate modifications are eventually made to the 277 underpass). I would hate 30 years from now to look at an aging ballpark in a lifeless neighborhood, and think "Man, if only we had held out for the aquarium/zoo/retail complex that could've been built there".

Otherwise, I totally agree with your post above. 2nd Ward really is the more important part of this equation, and it's better that it not be tied to something as potentially alienating as another sports venue. If the ballpark does go through, I would really want to see some kind of creative design that makes it a semi-public facility with year-round activity; I think it would be neat to somehow make it an extension of the park area next door. Perhaps make some sort of plaza that leads directly from the park into the stadium, allowing people to enter the ballpark and shop or sightsee without actually buying a ticket for the game.

[dubone]

If they build it with quality materials, in 30 years this place might be endeared to all of us. However, by then, if growth patterns continue, then MLB will come, and this land can revert to other development. I think of this as a reserve on the land, so other land nearby can be developed and with more density. I already believe that the perceived scarcity of sites left in 3rd Ward with the stadium and park planned, the rest of the land has come to life and now has active development plans. Without 13 acres being reserved for these park and rec projects, I believe all of that other land would not have sprung to action.

Anyway, at this point, the only way this will stop is by a judge's decision. I would prefer for people to expend energy lobbying CCP, City Council, County Commissioners, and the Knights themselves to get commitments for avoiding a dead area. For example, the City Council is still in the critical path for this, as it has not executed the interlocal agreement (unless I missed something over the holidays). The city made it a great priority to include street retail on the arena (although they sadly only did it on one side). I would like them to simply demand that the Knights provide the street retail spaces.

Atlrvr or others, could you explain what UMUD zoning is going to require? My understanding is that UMUD does require street retail, and I would personally protest a renoning if they were trying to get out of that requirement.

[monsoon]

I think downtown Charlotte is mostly destined to be a place of concrete canyons and dead streets with some token people friendly areas. This ball park will pretty much kill off anything positive in this regard for third ward for the next few decades. The present generation looks back with disdain on what as been done in the past in Charlotte by misguided urban renewal projects and I predict that future generations will be doing the same.

[dubone]

I'm willing to take the risk that a baseball stadium, park, dense mixed-use developments, and redesign of the gridded to streets to be more pedestrian accessible, will be fine in the eyes of the next generation. Race removal and the destruction of antique structures to build surface parking does not equate to what is planned now. The next generation might still be upset about it, but at least the current generation will be living in their handiwork, rather than abandoning it as the past generation.

Work of past generation: dead zone.

Work of this generation: live zone that lacks some utopian ideals.

I'll go with the latter, and defend it.

[monsoon]

....

Work of past generation: dead zone.

Work of this generation: live zone that lacks some utopian ideals.

I'll go with the latter, and defend it.