Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

Sir, I have been in engineering school for four years. I hang out with professional engineers all the time, and have been gifted with the insight into their profession. They do the best with parameters and information given. The information about asbestos from city records was bad, the city streets and utilities go back centuries and were not documented. The piling numbers were bad. All this information added money and time. Not to mention the changes to station location, additions to allow extension, and proffers to the local area added afterwords. Most of the cost is associated with bad information input, which happens with all projects (see Saturn V, Boeing 747, ect) The truth of the matter is that the engineers did their best to overcome these issues, which added cost. They were working in the unknown, breaking ground. Building infrastructure is not like buying a TV, when you make something from nothing. You base what it will cost off of the information given, nothing is incompetant with that.

A side note to add to this, in Portland we had a department store renovate its building to add a hotel in its upper floors. The project had to eventually ask the city for help to finish it because of cost overruns, which included finding out the building was actually 4 buildings that had been combined into one and not 3 buildings combined into one. Then there were issues with poor documents over the years that did not accurately detail the building and its inner workings.

Things like this are common when dealing with projects of any kind, and when it comes to rail projects in general, these types of issues can be costly...heck, the having to redo the NSU stop alone added millions to the cost, which is why HRT should of probably put a stop to NSU's whining and addressed their issue separately through later costs, such as added transit police protection.

Also, while there are rail projects going up all over the country, this is still the first line going in Hampton Roads, and like cookies, that first batch usually is the hardest one to make. Therefore alot of their mistakes are going to come out and be learned from with this first line...future lines will probably go much smoother than this....which in reality, this line is going really smooth compared to other rail projects I have seen over the years. Hell, Seattle is having more of an issue with rail projects than Hampton Roads is.

[urbanfan]

I don't see how we are approaching Charlotte's cost per mile, when they have 6 more LRVs, two car stations, and more elevated portions.

Yes, but almost all of the city portion in downtown charlotte has it's own dedicated right of way. The tracks are not winding through city streets like norfolk's does. That is the most expensive portion of the light rail contract, and the one that typically runs over anyway. On top of that norfolk has two elevated sections and two bridges over water crossings, so I would say that we have just as much elevation as charlotte has throughout their line.

[urbanfan]

Isn't this exactly what I warned would happen years ago? That HRT had absolutely 0 experience running a capital construction program. That they low-balled the bid overall. That any controller with a single active brain cell would have told them that the downtown portion was wayyyyy under budgeted. That there is a complete lack of oversight due to the governance structure of HRT. And that, as a result of this, it would risk killing any long-term plan for expansion or LRT. And why shouldn't it? If this is level of execution you can expect, why should tax payers, you know the ones paying for this, just suck it up as a part of the 'wonderful world of government projects'?

And people want the local cities to merge/share more services? Look at the two trans-regional services, HRT & SPSA. Not exactly making a strong case for it, are they?

I feel like Telmnstr on the housing bubble...

One thing, Please understand that the low bidding of the project did not come from HRT. I followed this project from start to semi-finish. The low balling came in as a request by the federal government not HRT. HRT submitted its project and the federal government did not like the figures. Therefore, they had a special delegation that dealt specifically with HRT to get the budget to the numbers that they liked. HRT had the right numbers previously and had it not been for government interference, we wouldn't be sitting where we are now. I understand that HRT had little experience in Capital projects, but they had the number right from the get go. Place the blame where blame is due, and in this instance, it is not with HRT but the FTA and the advisors that worked with HRT to get the numbers to where they wanted them.

[urbanfan]

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

I pray that VB Council doesn't go into a meeting on Tuesday and say,"YOU know what.. We don't want to have anything to do with this light rail. DIscontinue the study."

The study was required by state senators, not the city. The study will be finished. Pretty much the beach was forced into this they did not go into this on their own, so they have no say until the study is complete.

[ronsmytheiii]

Monticello Street near Wells fargo, looks like they are setting up the concrete casts:

City Hall and the end of Plume street work:

[varider]

I can really see a nice TOD on that lot in the 2nd picture. Maybe a condo tower wilth retail on the ground floor? Or office tower? Build a nice crosswalk across St Paul's to the LR station. What you guys think?

[ronsmytheiii]

Forgot this panorama, you can see the light rail line on the right side on Plume (only one track done):

[varider]

I love AltDaily.

http://www.24sevencities.com/features/news/politics/macarthur-center-station-an-icon-or-just-another-light-rail-stop.html

A successful mass transit system is critical to the growth and vitality of Norfolk, and the place making qualities of The Tide’s platforms and transit stations are inherent in their eventual status as civic, commercial, recreational, and cultural crossroads. They are not accessory structures but are extensions of the city that surrounds them, bringing with them immense opportunities to promote a sense of place and community. They are creators of urban identity and civic character, a source of beauty, excitement, inspiration and fun.

They shape our urban fabric, provide the scenery for our daily lives and affect the way we live, feel, and interact

.

[varider]

So, LR costs have risen to $340M..

Senior management, including Townes, need to step down.

They are really screwing up our chances for a regional light rail system, that our area really needs.

[mistermetaj]

So, LR costs have risen to $340M..

Senior management, including Townes, need to step down.

They are really screwing up our chances for a regional light rail system, that our area really needs.

Everyone is so ready to go for Townes's jugular and blame HRT, but in reality these kind of cost overruns are common for large transit projects. Look at the Denver International Airport, the Big Dig, or the Eastside Access 2nd Ave. Subway system in NYC. All of them cost way more than LR and all of them were or still are over budget.

When a plan is set in motion for a city and state venture like this the Federal Government usually pays 1/3rd. However, they won't give a dime until the schedule and planning passes all contingency requirements by the feds which usually brings up the cost of the project from the start. This was not just HRT and Townes's fault. This is the fault of the city, the state, and the federal government. By city council calling for Townes's head, they are indicting themselves as well in my opinion.

Now obviously I haven't seen the cost sheet, or at least a comparison of costs vs. estimated and costs from the beginning, but I think the overruns run far deeper than one man's management position.

[varider]

We all understand how public projects work,

but the problem is Townes didn't alert the chairmen/women of the problems that had arisen and they can't even tell the public what actually has cost more than projected. HRT's upper-level management has not kept a tight budget and is playing around with Norfolk taxpayers $$.

[varider]

This was a very interesting report. It looks like the City of Norfolk is taking a serious look at a real rail transit system and planning for TOD. There's actually 4 additional LR lines just within the city's limits. Also, great plans for NSU station, MacArthur Station, Newtown Station, and a "Grand Central-like" station at Harbor Park with mixed use developments. Also, I didn't know the City of Norfolk is 97% developed. I like the idea of "density bonuses.Take a look:

http://www.railvolution.com/rv2009_pdfs/20091030_4pm_Trans21Local_Wright.pdf

[Norfolk4Life]

I dont think that the problem is the cost overruns themselves. most will agree that sh*t happens and that you cannot forsee site-related problems. I think people have a problem with the soft-costs that have skyrocketed (management pay, consultants, etc.) and the fact that HRT seems to have deliberately mislead us. HRT specifically said that the new cost was $328 million. In less than a week HRT changed that to $340 million. This is what people have problems with.

[varider]

If the Beach bails out,

should Norfolk continue with an extension to the Naval Station?

[vdogg]

I encourage everyone to take time to fill out this form with regards to the Richmond/HR highspeed rail line. Comments are due by February 11, 2010. HR residents, it is imperative that we voice how much HSR is needed for Hampton Roads, southside in particular. I plan to post this link in all relevant HR forums, but please confine your comments to the thread.

[carolinaboy]

If the Beach bails out,

should Norfolk continue with an extension to the Naval Station?

Ummmmmm.....yes, absolutely.

[atp4984]

I encourage everyone to take time to fill out this form with regards to the Richmond/HR highspeed rail line. Comments are due by February 11, 2010. HR residents, it is imperative that we voice how much HSR is needed for Hampton Roads, southside in particular. I plan to post this link in all relevant HR forums, but please confine your comments to the thread.

Why they're not considering making the 460 route a 150mph line is beyond me. It's the straightest flatest 50 miles of track in the whole system. Combined with improvements to the DC/Richmond leg, a possible 2 hour commute from Norfolk to DC would be an economic game-changer.

[Glassoul]

Why they're not considering making the 460 route a 150mph line is beyond me. It's the straightest flatest 50 miles of track in the whole system. Combined with improvements to the DC/Richmond leg, a possible 2 hour commute from Norfolk to DC would be an economic game-changer.

Because 150MPH would require electrification.

[vdogg]

Because 150MPH would require electrification.

Exactly, which will add billions of dollars to the relatively "low" price tag. As it stands now, our system is positioned very will to compete with the other projects because it is far less expensive and therefore more attractive for federal stimulus dollars. We can always get the base system in place now, and then add electrification further down the road in an "upgrade". The Northeast Acela started out at a top speed of 90 mph, and then progressed to 150 mph in certain areas through successive upgrades.

[virginia pe]

If the Beach bails out,

should Norfolk continue with an extension to the Naval Station?

I doubt that they could prove to the feds that it could be economically viable. I can't see beach commuters driving to Newtown Road and then paying to park in a park-n-ride lot to ride to the Naval Station. Yes, I think they should look into it, but I doubt they will get the federal money to make it happen.

[varider]

I doubt that they could prove to the feds that it could be economically viable. I can't see beach commuters driving to Newtown Road and then paying to park in a park-n-ride lot to ride to the Naval Station. Yes, I think they should look into it, but I doubt they will get the federal money to make it happen.

Welll park-and-rides are free.

And after hearing Sessoms comment on Wavy and the fact that he's signing the papers to acquire the NS ROW on Thursday leads me to believe that LR is a GO in Virginia Beach. Once they've paid 45 or so million dollars (Circuit City,ROW), there's no turning back IMO.

[rusthebuss]

Welll park-and-rides are free.

And after hearing Sessoms comment on Wavy and the fact that he's signing the papers to acquire the NS ROW on Thursday leads me to believe that LR is a GO in Virginia Beach. Once they've paid 45 or so million dollars (Circuit City,ROW), there's no turning back IMO.

Nothing is a done deal...they could turn it into a bike path for all we know

[varider]

While nothin is a done deal.. no way this thing turns into a bike path. People don't even ride bikes around here because it's too spread out. Norfolk is the only city that bike paths could work. Plus a 50 or 60 million dollar bike path wouldn't fly to well. Now there may be a bike path adjacent to the rail system. There should probably be a bikeway and a walkway actually. That'd be cool. But yeah, IMO, we have either LRT or BRT to look forward to.

[varider]

http://www.wvec.com/news/local/Delays-in-light-rail-are-bad-news-for-some-Norfolk-businesses-80293137.html

This really is sad that some of these long time locally-owned businesses are getting put out of business by the construction.

Edited December 30, 2009 by varider

[carolinaboy]

http://www.wvec.com/news/local/Delays-in-light-rail-are-bad-news-for-some-Norfolk-businesses-80293137.html

This really is sad that some of these long time locally-owned businesses are getting put out of business by the construction.

While I agree it is a bad situation for businesses to be effected, I have to wonder about the statement that the city ought to "Give" money to struggling businesses to prop them up. Is the book store owner going to "give" taxpayers of Norfolk a book afterwards as a "thank-you " for helping him stay afloat? I don't think so. Sorry.....off topic.

Edited December 30, 2009 by carolinaboy