Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[monsoon]

...Question on risk of proceeding. Once get the final approval this month, only two systems (Hawaii and somehwere in Florida) have ever not been fully funded and completed, and both of those voluntarily dropped out....

That would be Orlando. It will be interesting to see what company Norfolk uses to build the trains.

[Sky06]

I'm a little disappointed that HRT has failed to update their site with any of the new documents or news of this. The last time anything was added is May.

This is great news. Can't wait for things to get rolling. Sorry.

Here's a link to send your comments to HRT:

http://www.hrtransit.org/lrt/commentForm.asp

Edited September 14, 2006 by Sky06

[urbanfan]

That would be Orlando. It will be interesting to see what company Norfolk uses to build the trains.

I do believe that the trains are contingent on partnering with other light rail lines right now. The original goal was to partner with either Charlotte or Phoenix to add our order to theres. However, with so much time before approval now that ability is impossible now. So it will be interesting to see where and from who the trains come from.

[monsoon]

I do believe that the trains are contingent on partnering with other light rail lines right now. The original goal was to partner with either Charlotte or Phoenix to add our order to theres. However, with so much time before approval now that ability is impossible now. So it will be interesting to see where and from who the trains come from.

Indeed, Charlotte is already testing trains but the design, the Siemens S70, is a good choice for this kind of system. They will be ordering more trains for future extensions to the line but right now there is no schedule for this. You can see some photos of this testing and what this train looks like if you scroll though this thread starting here. Houston also uses this exact train.

Just for a rule of thumb. What ever schedule you see now, add at least a year to it. The Charlotte system is opening almost 2 years later than what was originally billed. Some of this was delays imposed by the FTA, some due to cost overruns because construction materials have gotten so much more expensive, and the rest (and ongoing in Charlotte) is due to incompetence by local officials.

It was a mistake for the city to put CATS (the local transit authority) IMO in charge of a large construction project where they had never done anything like this before. So CATS subcontracted out the management to a private company and its coming out now there were huge mistakes made due to this company's failings and lack of experience by CATS. Things like the ticket machine vender coming to install machines, but the platforms had not been built yet, boiler rooms with 11.5 ft boilers but having 11ft ceilings, and parking decks that don't have enough concrete in them. The tally right now is a $22M in cost overrruns from this one vender which the city has to cover.

Right now, total cost overruns are close to $60M over what was approved by the FTA and all of it has to come from local sources, or they have to cut stuff out of the system. They have done both in Charlotte. In hindsight, I think it would have been better if the city had put another department in charge of the construction, one familiar with large projects such as road building, and left CATS to run the trains and buses. Maybe this is something that Norfolk should consider as well.

[vdogg]

Thats an interesting point. To my knowledge HRT (our local transit authority) does not have any experience with large construction projects so they will likely be contracting out as well. It seems from the way you describe it though that most of the bad judgement and incompetence came from the private contractors end (though CATS can obviously take a large part of the blame here as well). Hopefully HRT will properly vet any private contractors they may choose. The city of Norfolk will be heavily involved in the decision making process however and they have had a decent track record with major projects as of late so i'm not too concerned. I would be surprised if there are not cost overruns however, which would become a major issue if it was decided that the state had to foot the bill (getting money from them is like pulling teeth). This brings me to a question however. Does anyone know if the states portion of this has been apporved by the general assembly yet?

[Seven Cities]

Chesapeake and Seven, thank you both for your extensive reporting. I'm going to quote and repost both reports in the Transit forum in the light rail threads. Not much we didn't know but the new stuff mentioned is quite exciting! Thanks to both of you for attending this.

No problem vdogg. It was only a few blocks from my job and since no one responded that they were going, I decided to venture out. I do apologize for not getting into the detail that Chesapeake Pirate did, mainly because I didnt bring my notebook with me to take notes. But as I said before, most of what he said we already knew.

On another note, while getting ready for work this morning, I heard on WAVY News 10 that Mayor Fraim will be holding a press conference today to make an official announcement on the light rail project. I don't know what time or where (more than likely City Hall), but there should be additional info on the briefing later today on Channel 10.

[vdogg]

No problem vdogg. It was only a few blocks from my job and since no one responded that they were going, I decided to venture out. I do apologize for not getting into the detail that Chesapeake Pirate did, mainly because I didnt bring my notebook with me to take notes. But as I said before, most of what he said we already knew.

On another note, while getting ready for work this morning, I heard on WAVY News 10 that Mayor Fraim will be holding a press conference today to make an official announcement on the light rail project. I don't know what time or where (more than likely City Hall), but there should be additional info on the briefing later today on Channel 10.

I can't wait. On a side note we should also be hearing some more official info on the Hilton shortly too. It's been a busy month.

[vdogg]

With light rail, library must be relocated.

Now that light rail is getting close to reality, with a projected opening in late 2009 or early 2010, city officials have some work to do - not the least of which is relocating the main library, Kirn Memorial.

Plans call for razing the deteriorating building and replacing it with a light-rail station andpossibly a new office building. However, there are no plans yet for the new library, said Councilman W. Randy Wright, during a public briefing on light rail Wednesday at Kirn. He said that the library site, on City Hall Avenue across from MacArthur Center, would have to be vacated by mid-2008.

[monsoon]

^The city ought to do everything it can to make the actual stations destinations as well. It would be great if they could incorporate the new library into the new station design.

[okinawatyphoon]

^The city ought to do everything it can to make the actual stations destinations as well. It would be great if they could incorporate the new library into the new station design.

That's definitely a good idea. Hopefully that office building plan goes through too.

[vdogg]

Found this little blurb on Norfolks website, they must've already held the press conference.

Norfolk Mayor Paul Fraim announced today that the Federal Transit Administration has approved the city

[Seven Cities]

The press release said the system is expected to transport 20,000 people per day. How did that number suddenly increase from the initial expected ridership of 6000-12,000 per day? Even Randy Wright quoted the 6000-12,000 figure at yesterday's meeting.

[erdogs]

The press release said the system is expected to transport 20,000 people per day. How did that number suddenly increase from the initial expected ridership of 6000-12,000 per day? Even Randy Wright quoted the 6000-12,000 figure at yesterday's meeting.

My guess would be politics.

[okinawatyphoon]

20,000 sounds like wishful thinking IMO. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[urbanlife]

just some good urban planning I wish to point out, the Kirn Library building is the most important stop for the light rail system simply because it is what should be seen as the center of the city. In needs to be a clear connection to Waterside, the mall, Granby. This should be something the city is proud of and uses as its marketing tool.

Actually two things to point out that it should be like, the second being more fitting. Here in Portland we have Pioneer Square where it is seen as the center of the city and the center stop for light rail. The plaza functions as the city's "living room." The other example in Portland is this new building on the PSU campus where the streetcar stops in the center of it. The second choice fits the description of what Norfolk wants better. It consists of a plaza with shops and small cafes in it at ground level. The upper levels of the two buildings includes office and class room space.

Something like this, with the help of a great architect to design and undertand the flow of the area would be ideal. A plaza that interacts with the city is needed for this stop. An office tower on the stop is also important because if its location, something 12-25 stories would make sense. The higher option would be best if this building not only included the library on the lower floors, offices above that, and possibly condos on the upper floors. Making this building a strong statement for what the city wishes to be seen as.

It is shame I will be no where near being a liscenced architect by this time. I would be going after the mayor right now with this idea if I was.

[monsoon]

20,000 sounds like wishful thinking IMO. I hope I'm wrong, though.

It's more like officials getting confused by riders/ridership and trips. They are not the same thing.

[Sky06]

It's more like officials getting confused by riders/ridership and trips. They are not the same thing.

I wouldn't be surprised we hit that number fairly early on, after people jump on the wagon. It seems we do more underestimating around here whenever it comes to transportation rather than the other way around. 10,000 cars usually turns out to be 50,000, and so on.

Hey, Norfolk had a beautiful Union Station back in the day. It's a real shame this building isn't still here so we could make that a central point for LRT. But I agree with above, this central station needs to be "grand," calssic, and a hub for activity.

http://www.npl.lib.va.us/absoluteig/galler...x=&shownew=

[vdogg]

Roll out the doom and gloom

Light rail gets green light. How to pay for it still a challenge

NORFOLK - State lawmakers can't seem to agree on how to pay for some of the region's biggest transportation projects. And now comes light rail, asking for an additional $29 million.

That's the challenge facing backers of Norfolk's light-rail line, a $232 million project that received a long-awaited federal approval Wednesday.

The state's share of the cost, which amounts to 13 percent, is the most uncertain, considering the overwhelming demands on the transportation budget. State lawmakers will meet later this month in a final attempt to reach a deal on transportation financing for the year.

The lawmakers should make this a priority. If we had a functioning regional system in the first place a lot of those projects would either not be needed, or could be constructed in greatly reduced form.

[Sky06]

If we had a functioning regional system in the first place a lot of those projects would either not be needed, or could be constructed in greatly reduced form.

Agree. But we also need to consider possibility that the state may not help us one bit. Let's make this happen regardless of the state. I'm also beginning to wonder whether VB lawmakers are dense or just want to outdo Norfolk. We're not talking Chicho's here, we're talking the future.

Edited September 15, 2006 by Sky06

[vdogg]

Agree. But we also need to conmsider possibility that the state won't help us one bit. Let's make this happen regardless of the state. I'm also beginning to wonder whether VB lawmakers are dense or just want to outdo Norfolk. We're not talking Chicho's here, we're talking the future.

Yes, I did notice that the naysayers magically happened to be from my city again. I wish we could get some representatives at the Beach who can drop their suburban mindset and make intelligent decisions.

[monsoon]

Ahh, I did not realize the local portion of the funding had not been wrapped up. I am pretty sure the FTA will not recommend to congress to fund this system until that part is signed off. And as a clarification the way the federal portion works, the FTA recommends to congress to provide the funding. Congress and the President have to sign off on it in a budget bill before Norfolk can actually start construction using federal money.

[Sky06]

just some good urban planning I wish to point out, the Kirn Library building is the most important stop for the light rail system simply because it is what should be seen as the center of the city. In needs to be a clear connection to Waterside, the mall, Granby. This should be something the city is proud of and uses as its marketing tool.

I recall vdogg's post in Norfolk constructon v2 that HRT was planning to build a 12-story HQ on site of library. The note says it was not slated to begin until late 2007. Is this still the plan? Will this be a combo HQ and rail station? Any thoughts?

[vdogg]

Ahh, I did not realize the local portion of the funding had not been wrapped up. I am pretty sure the FTA will not recommend to congress to fund this system until that part is signed off. And as a clarification the way the federal portion works, the FTA recommends to congress to provide the funding. Congress and the President have to sign off on it in a budget bill before Norfolk can actually start construction using federal money.

We might as well write this whole project off if that's the case because I really don't see the state coming through with any money. They have been deadlocked for the better part of a year now due to some arcane notion that we can pay for all of these projects without tolls, or taxes, or anything related to the two. This kinda dampens my hopes of this actually coming to fruition.

[vdogg]

The first 2 comments in the comment section are a perfect example of the polarization that exists between some Beach residents and Norfolk on this issue. The opinions couldn't be further apart. At least this time it doesn't have to go before a referendum, and I have a feeling that Norfolk and HRT will try to find some way to come up with the other 13 percent if the state (read beach delegates) decides in the 11th hour not to come up with their share.

[monsoon]

One of the requirements for getting the recommended for funding is the financial viability of the system. They are not going to grant money for a system that can't be finished due to lack of funds.