Why don't more people use RIPTA?

[JimmyGreaves]

Do you have a link for the minutes?

Here's the link from the July 18th RIPTA board meeting which I referenced.

http://www2.sec.state.ri.us/omfiling/pdffi...0/2006/5081.pdf

[Mij]

Here's the link from the July 18th RIPTA board meeting which I referenced.

http://www2.sec.state.ri.us/omfiling/pdffi...0/2006/5081.pdf

Thank you!

[Frankie811]

Ch 12 reports that projo will run a story in Thursdays paper on RIPTA and efforts to improve mass transit. It seems that on some lines full buses are leaving people at bus stops.

[runawayjim]

Ch 12 reports that projo will run a story in Thursdays paper on RIPTA and efforts to improve mass transit. It seems that on some lines full buses are leaving people at bus stops.

so if some of the lines have full buses, how are they over budget?

[urbie]

Ch 12 reports that projo will run a story in Thursdays paper on RIPTA and efforts to improve mass transit. It seems that on some lines full buses are leaving people at bus stops.

I hear a lot of this on the scanner -- sometimes in the morning, other times in the evening (e.g., at Roger Williams [?] the other night, there were about 100 kids, and the driver said, "There's going to be a riot if I stop and try to let them on the bus, because it's already full!" The dispatcher told him to go by).

Hey, if there's no room on the bus, there's no room on the bus -- what's he supposed to do?

Urb

[runawayjim]

I hear a lot of this on the scanner -- sometimes in the morning, other times in the evening (e.g., at Roger Williams [?] the other night, there were about 100 kids, and the driver said, "There's going to be a riot if I stop and try to let them on the bus, because it's already full!" The dispatcher told him to go by).

Hey, if there's no room on the bus, there's no room on the bus -- what's he supposed to do?

Urb

it's understandable that if they overcrowd the bus, it becomes unsafe. but if there's constant full buses on the same routes, they need to have more buses on those routes.

[Cotuit]

Ch 12 reports that projo will run a story in Thursdays paper on RIPTA and efforts to improve mass transit. It seems that on some lines full buses are leaving people at bus stops.

Here's the article by the way (you're getting slow Frankie!). I've had it open on my computer all day, but haven't had a chance to read it yet.

Group urges more RIPTA bus routes [ProJo.com]

[Frankie811]

Here's the article by the way (you're getting slow Frankie!)

Not really. Just trying to give someone else a chance to post. Plus I don't want to give Brick and monsoon a reason to complain.

[brick]

Everybody loves anecdotes, so here's mine from yesterday.

I had plans downtown that prelcuded me from attending the UP meeting. Actually, I could have made it but basically forgot by the time I was done with my other stuff. So anyway I decide that it's better for everyone to spend $2 taking the bus than hopping in my car to make the 3 mile trip downtown. I live just off of East Ave. in Pawtucket, right near Shea High School. So I can decide between the 42 on East/Hope or 99 on Pawtucket/No. Main. I elect to try the 42. Leave my house at 5:15, there is stop basically at the top of my (every) street. I am impatient and decide to walk East Ave. instead of standing in one place. I am not picked up by a bus until I get all the way up Hope St. past the Rochambeau library. I walk pretty fast so that's really only about 30 minutes, but that still seems a little much for a peak time. Beyond that, though, here are some observations.

1) Again, too many stops. This is nice when you want to do what I did since you are never more than about 1/16 mile from a stop, but otherwise it's annoying. for instance, when I got on, nobody got off, but someone got off at the stop before and the stop after. All of us could have been served by one stop - it would have required walking about 200 feet.

2) There is a stigma with people that ride the bus and unfortunately this stigma is sometimes correct. My bus was pretty full, and featured at least three people in my general vicinity who hadn't showered yet this week and two mothers with screaming (and I'm not talking fussing, I'm talking ears ringing shreiking) infants that did nothing to try and get their kids to quiet down. It was a pretty miserable experience.

3) Getting off at KP wasn't too bad at 6 PM or so, but for that time there was still a remarkable lack of professional people around. What was worse was crossing Burnside Park, which was filled with barely sane homeless folks. I crossed the park but most people were walking all the way around. Not sure what to do about this but it is going to be hard to make the park lively if noone wants to go in it.

Getting rid of stops is a no-brainer to me although I suppose they do it for the elderly. I'm not sure what can be done as a compromise but it really annoying when the bus has to stop four or five times in a row along a 1/4 mile strip.

As for the people, I don't mean to imply that anything needs to be done about them (that's a little too Orwellian for me), but things like that are definitely why some people would rather deal with traffic and gas prices than ride the bus, even when the bus is more convenient for them.

[Frankie811]

Gee, you just don't have any luck driving or taking the bus downtown. I'm surprised you didn't complain about paying $ 2.00 instead of the required $ 1.50 fare.

[runawayjim]

one of my complaints as a driver is that there are too many stops and people stop at all of them on occasion. going up smith street, it stops at every cross street, and those are small blocks. they could cut those in half and it wouldn't be a problem for people.

[brick]

nm. You know what they say about arguing on the internet.

[MichaelQ]

3) Getting off at KP wasn't too bad at 6 PM or so, but for that time there was still a remarkable lack of professional people around. What was worse was crossing Burnside Park, which was filled with barely sane homeless folks. I crossed the park but most people were walking all the way around. Not sure what to do about this but it is going to be hard to make the park lively if noone wants to go in it.

That park.....

....is unbelievable. I've said it before on this board, but the PPD do absolutely nothing but watch the insanity that goes down within the gates. They don't enforce loitering laws (we have to have them, right?), they don't enforce littering laws, they don't care if folks are fighting. And combine this with the scene at Kennedy Plaza on most days - you can't blame people for not wanting to take the bus into Kennedy Plaza (I know all mass transit has its problems with "people" but there just seems to be something different about Kennedy Plaza that feels unsafe).

I could go on and on and on about the antics I witness at Burnside Park while I wait for my trolley every weekday, but I can pretty much sum it up with the events from last night, which perhaps you witnessed:

First off, the park was absolutely trashed. Again. One particular group of about eight homeless people were surrounding a bench with at least ten empty bottles, wrappers, newspapers, and bags surrounding them. Out of this group of eight were a man and a woman who were screaming at each other in the most vulgar language you could imagine. Then, the man grabbed a little girl who was apparently the daughter of the pair and dragged her away by her feet across the street to KP. At which point the woman raised her voice several more decibals and continued swearing at him across the street with him responding in kind (this is at 6:15 p.m. and there are people everywhere). After fifteen minutes of this, the guy came back across the street and him, the woman, the girl, and another woman all stood around next to the trolley stop and continued screaming and swearing at each other. Not one police officer or RIPTA security guard did anything. It was surreal.

I'm not an insensitive man, but surely Burnside Park is not the place for this type of activity. It dissuades people from coming downtown and crossing through that entire area. That's why the City moved Crossroads - same idea.

[Recchia]

RIPTA should only stop at its stops designated with the RIPTA Bus Stop signs, and they should make these far enough apart so its buses can run more efficiently. The problem is that RIPTA sees these signs as advertising as well, so the more they put out the better.

Driver's shouldn't just stop anywhere when someone pulls the rope, they should stop wherever the next actual stop is, and they shouldn't let people on at any old street corner, but rather at designated stops only. People would learn eventually when the bus flies by them cause they're just standing around on a corner. People need to realize that the bus is not a door to door car service and you may have to walk 500 feet from where you get off.

[Cotuit]

I don't think signs hanging upside down because the top screw is missing on poles leaning across the sidewalk, or a random sign nailed to a telephone pole next to a mud pit where people are expected to wait is a very good ad strategy for RIPTA.

RIPTA drivers also need to stop at the actual stops when people signal for a stop. I've been riding the trolley this week and the drivers (two different drivers) keep driving past the inbound stop across from the Hilton. People signal for it and the drivers daydream right by, then right by the one outside the old Public Safety Complex (why there are two so close is another issue, but they are there and marked, they should be stopping).

Also, when a sign falls down, the drivers take that to mean they don't need to stop anymore. The sign outbound on Atwells at Dean went missing over the summer and the trolley drivers started insisting there was no longer a stop there, even after the sign was miraculously replaced, and I angrily pointed out that fact.

I'll stop now because I'm working myself into another RIPTA rant. Suffice to say, RIPTAs service and appearance is piss poor from the ground up. I say gut it and start over.

[Recchia]

I don't think signs hanging upside down because the top screw is missing on poles leaning across the sidewalk, or a random sign nailed to a telephone pole next to a mud pit where people are expected to wait is a very good ad strategy for RIPTA.

Lol. And they need to tear down all those yellow TA bands around telephone poles that they used to use to designate stops in ancient times and replace them with the nice white signs. Then they can work on schedules at major bus stops and setting out specific stops. They seem to love not stopping at designated ones but then letting people off wherever they want.

[Frankie811]

I'll stop now because I'm working myself into another RIPTA rant. Suffice to say, RIPTAs service and appearance is piss poor from the ground up. I say gut it and start over.

So what's your take on NY & Bostons metro bus system? I can't imagine that it's any better.

[Cotuit]

So what's your take on NY & Bostons metro bus system? I can't imagine that it's any better.

New York and Boston buses are much much better. But compared to other cities our size, Providence is actually (sadly) pretty damn good.

[Recchia]

New York and Boston buses are much much better. But compared to other cities our size, Providence is actually (sadly) pretty damn good.

Albany has the best bus system for mid sized metros I must say. Just from what I've experienced and heard.

[markOne]

Frankie811 said: on Oct 5 2006, 08:00 AM in post=576467 (Sorry I couldn't get your quote to format correctly)

Gee, you just don't have any luck driving or taking the bus downtown.

You do have to admit that Providence metro is not the easiest city to get around, then again is isn't the worst either. Keep in mind that we all just wish things were better than they are. Especially when some of the issues seem easy to fix.

That park.....

....is unbelievable.

[snip]

It dissuades people from coming downtown and crossing through that entire area.

I agree. I am not exactly a small person, but there are times when even I, in peak commuting hours, am made to feel uncomfortable in both KP and Burnside Park. I've seen some of the metro police asking sketchy older guys to move along when they are hasting young female students for cigarettes and money, but most questionable activity goes on unabated.

RIPTA should only stop at its stops designated with the RIPTA Bus Stop signs, and they should make these far enough apart so its buses can run more efficiently.

In my experience (primarily the 42, 49, and the 60) the drivers are fairly good about only stopping at official stops. What drives me NUTS is the fact that there so many of those stops. On Hope st. there is one every 1/10mi for most of the run (Brick may have been exasperatedly exaggerating, but not by much). I try to get off when someone else requests a stop that is near mine so that the bus doesn't have to stop too many times in a short stretch. NEVER has this actually worked. Here is what actually happens:

1) Someone makes a request to stop a quarter mile from my stop (whatever stop I am taking that day)

2) We both get off

3) I head down the street and watch as the bus stops TWO more times on the way to my stop.

4) I quietly loose my mind as I try to resist running up to the people getting off the bus 176 yards from the last time it stopped and chastising them for being lazy inconsiderate idiots.

No wonder they can't get the buses to run on time.

Albany has the best bus system for mid sized metros I must say. Just from what I've experienced and heard.

Burlington has a fairly good system. My brother lives there and has not had a car in years.

[edited to fix quote formating]

[Nyuszi]

So what's your take on NY & Bostons metro bus system? I can't imagine that it's any better.

Boston is about 150% better - even though I have my own complaints about it.

But i think you can't compare the two - even leaving out the metro and just looking at the bus system in Boston. The MBTA is focused on a single, densely populated metro region. Although there are competing constituencies (middle class suburbanites, low income inner-city, students in off-campus housing) it's all basically working people trying to get to and from work. This allows the bus system to create a logical "grid" of local and express busses that connect with each other and the metro.

RIPTA, on the other hand is kind of schizophrenic - it wants to serve an entire state, but it's very focused on the city of Providence. The hub-and-spoke model makes it very difficult to get from one part of town to another, or from out of town to anywhere other than downtown. And in my limited experience on longer distance runs, they also suffer from too many stops with few express-type options.

So, the needs and solutions that would improve the MBTA or that make it work at the level it is now, wouldn't really apply to RIPTA as well.

As for the people issue, I feel like that's a chicken-egg problem (though the police could certainly help). When the system has a critical mass of riders who are sane people that are concerned with social mores and "acting right" it kind of forces everyone else to fall in line (except, of course, that there's always the one or two wackos on any given bus). Whereas, if there's no one around to glare at you for having a screaming match with your friend, plus there's a man having a screaming match with a paper bag, you're less likely to tone it down. Of course, this discourages that critical mass of people from riding, and around the cycle goes.

[Cotuit]

plus there's a man having a screaming match with a paper bag

That was you staring at me while Baggie and I were having our discussion?

[brick]

As for the people issue, I feel like that's a chicken-egg problem (though the police could certainly help). When the system has a critical mass of riders who are sane people that are concerned with social mores and "acting right" it kind of forces everyone else to fall in line (except, of course, that there's always the one or two wackos on any given bus). Whereas, if there's no one around to glare at you for having a screaming match with your friend, plus there's a man having a screaming match with a paper bag, you're less likely to tone it down. Of course, this discourages that critical mass of people from riding, and around the cycle goes.

I should make it clear (since my initial post really doesn't) that I'm not condemning those people per se. I have had many worse people on various fixed rail systems around the world. However, when the subject at hand is "why don't people use RIPTA?" then I have to put in my interpretation that people like this are part of the problem.

I really don't know what it is. Honestly on any given night taking the Red Line out of Boston there will be people more offensive than the people on RIPTA. Yet somehow, being in a train car instead of on the bus there is less negative connotation.

I tried to take RIPTA into the city again on Columbus Day and ended up walking all the way downtown. This is because they were on their hour headway holiday schedule. No problem there, only I didn't really find that out until I was already up at the Hope Center, where a schedule was actually posted! In the meantime, I passed at least 6 bus stops with booths that could have had schedules posted. why not just take the time to post schedules and do some basic maintanence? I can't be the only one that feels this way.

I grew up in Springfield, MA. There are definitely some similarities in the bus systems. PVTA in Spfld has to deal with overflow from the high schools just like RIPTA and it is a similar metro. (although PVD has more density and more populated suburbs). When I wanted to go downtown on the weekends I would leave my house at 8:15 and get to the bus stop by 8:30 or so, where I would wait for the 8:35 bus. The bus was never later than 8:45 and never so early that I would miss it. So I rode it regularly.

[runawayjim]

is ripta's holiday schedule different from their regular weekend schedule?

[Cotuit]

I grew up in Springfield, MA. There are definitely some similarities in the bus systems. PVTA in Spfld has to deal with overflow from the high schools just like RIPTA and it is a similar metro. (although PVD has more density and more populated suburbs). When I wanted to go downtown on the weekends I would leave my house at 8:15 and get to the bus stop by 8:30 or so, where I would wait for the 8:35 bus. The bus was never later than 8:45 and never so early that I would miss it. So I rode it regularly.

Yes, intown headways are ridiculous to the point of being useless. Even with a free pass through work, I still walk most days. I can walk from my house on Federal Hill to Kennedy Plaza without seeing a bus (as I did this morning). What's the point of waiting when I can make it to my destination on foot faster? The end all is when trolleys with 20 minute headways are bunched. How can two trolleys that are supposed to be 20 minutes apart be on top of each other? And of course that translates into a 40 minute hole in the schedule. Most people in moderately good health can walk the entire length of the greenline's route in a little more than 40 minutes.

is ripta's holiday schedule different from their regular weekend schedule?

It's generally the Sunday schedule which has many routes (like the trolleys) not running until 10am and drastically reduced headways. Some routes don't run at all on Sundays. And I work most holidays because ours are deferred to the week between Christmas and New Years.