Greenville Journal contents

[goodbye]

Did you mean "Piggly Wiggly simply doesn't generate a positive image"?

[gs3]

Did you mean "Piggly Wiggly simply doesn't generate a positive image"?

Great catch! Thanks!

[g-man430]

Hopefully if they build one downtown, it won't look like this: http://www.darrenfleeger.com/piggly_wiggly_large.jpg

[goodbye]

Hopefully such a plan wouldn't remain in Greenville for more than a minute.

[mallguy]

Re: grocery stores vs. downtown retailers- given that stores downtown are generally upscale and/or unique, I'd guess that the people who shop downtown (for whatever reason- whether they live near downtown, work downtown or are just there shopping) are generally in the market for upscale and/or unique things. Thus they'd be more likely to shop at a Trader Joe's rather than a Piggly Wiggly.

Look at any suburban neighborhood with generally upscale stores, such as Augusta Road- you also see upscale-ish grocery stores there. You wouldn't see a Compare Foods or a Kash n Karry or whatever it's called in any area of Greenville with upscale stores; I wouldn't expect to see one downtown, either.

[gs3]

We can probably all agree that there are even names worse than Piggly Wiggly out there:

http://www.kumandgo.com/

[krazeeboi]

I think if you're talking about impressing visitors, really, how many people outside of SC know anything about Piggly Wiggly, aside from those who may visit the state regularly? At most, I just think people will think the name is funny, but knowing Greenville, if one WERE to locate downtown, it would be very pleasing aesthetically and true to urban form. If the store truly services customers and fulfills their needs, people will get over the name REALLY quickly.

[RestedTraveler]

I think if you're talking about impressing visitors, really, how many people outside of SC know anything about Piggly Wiggly, aside from those who may visit the state regularly? At most, I just think people will think the name is funny, but knowing Greenville, if one WERE to locate downtown, it would be very pleasing aesthetically and true to urban form. If the store truly services customers and fulfills their needs, people will get over the name REALLY quickly.

Hey krazeeboi...Granted, Piggly Wiggly is prdominantly a Southern Chain; however, I think y'all had better take a step back and realize just how much of the U.S. Piggly Wiggly covers:

http://www.pigglywiggly.com/cgi-bin/custom...elocations.html

[RestedTraveler]

And does anybody know...just what is the difference between the stores represented by http://www.pigglywiggly.com/ and the ones represented by http://www.thepig.net/ (other than the fact that the later are in South Carolina only)?

[Fiddlestix]

Re: grocery stores vs. downtown retailers- given that stores downtown are generally upscale and/or unique, I'd guess that the people who shop downtown (for whatever reason- whether they live near downtown, work downtown or are just there shopping) are generally in the market for upscale and/or unique things. Thus they'd be more likely to shop at a Trader Joe's rather than a Piggly Wiggly.

Look at any suburban neighborhood with generally upscale stores, such as Augusta Road- you also see upscale-ish grocery stores there. You wouldn't see a Compare Foods or a Kash n Karry or whatever it's called in any area of Greenville with upscale stores; I wouldn't expect to see one downtown, either.

One hopes that the idea is NOT to recreate Augusta Rd. on Main Street. They also cruise on over to Publix in their SUVs and, regardless of what people might say about upscale, I think Augusta Rd. has more than its share of seed establishments. I think Earth Fare or those upscale food marts you've mentioned would be fine. But I think a downtown experience -- where people live and work downtown -- needs to have a full service store that is NOT upscale. Country club living is fine for some residential districts, but the best downtown model doesn't stick its nose in the air at full service food stores. That's what I object to in this thread. I'll concede the point about Piggly Wiggly versus Bi-Lo or Publix or Ingles. But as between any full-service grocer and upscale ones, the downtown is better served by having a full-service, mainline grocer over a niche grocer. Sure, some people might find it neat to be able to go downtown and get some exotic herb or free-range veal, but that doesn't serve the people who live there. On Augusta Rd. those same people don't care because they'll fire up the 12 cylinder Ford Himalaya to pick up some milk. One imagines a downtown living experience where that doesn't happen, mainly because it's not necessary. And for those people...having a Trader Joe's without some other walking distance grocery option would be a shame, no matter how cool or upscale the other options might seem.

I agree with gsupstate about Piggly Wiggly being a cheesy name within the mainstream grocer niche. But the alternative is not to cast about in an altogether different niche for something that satisfies an elitist view for downtown living.

[gs3]

One thing for sure though....look at the websites. Pigs and Publix. Both middle America grocers. Hmmmmm, which fits Greenville's downtown?

http://www.pigglywiggly.com/

http://www.publix.com/

[krazeeboi]

Hey krazeeboi...Granted, Piggly Wiggly is prdominantly a Southern Chain; however, I think y'all had better take a step back and realize just how much of the U.S. Piggly Wiggly covers:

http://www.pigglywiggly.com/cgi-bin/custom...elocations.html

Wow, I didn't know the Pig had expanded its presence like THAT...and who knew they were big in Wisconsin?

Well, given that, I would think that there would be a noticeable difference between the newer built stores and the older stores. I wonder how many urban locations the chain has now, if any?

[Fiddlestix]

And does anybody know...just what is the difference between the stores represented by http://www.pigglywiggly.com/ and the ones represented by http://www.thepig.net/ (other than the fact that the later are in South Carolina only)?

Piggly Wiggly has its eponymous web site and its South Carolina (Charleston-area) franchisee has a separate web site (thepig.net). (Found this by going to the LINKS page of the main Piggly Wiggly web site...which means that I am in need of some serious psychotherapy.)

[RestedTraveler]

Piggly Wiggly has its eponymous web site and its South Carolina (Charleston-area) franchisee has a separate web site (thepig.net). (Found this by going to the LINKS page of the main Piggly Wiggly web site...which means that I am in need of some serious psychotherapy.)

Thanks, Fiddlestix! Pig Links sounds like some sort of sausage to me.

[Greenville]

Wow, this thread is on fire! There have been some good thoughts all the way around.

First of all, I do not think downtown Greenville is elitist. Say that to someone from Los Angeles and they will laugh in your face (someone from Pelzer might find it elitist, however). It's not like we have Versace, Armani, Dean & Deluca, Prada, etc. lining our downtown streets. Granted, there are some expensive and very nice local retailers, but in my book we don't need to worry about being elitist downtown. But if we were going to have an expensive, upscale part of the city, doesn't it seem natural that it would be in some area of downtown?!?

My problem with Piggly Wiggly is mostly their name. It has a negative connotation of dumb, Southern, and redneck. Some people embrace that image, but I run from it. To each his own.

I realize that Hoggly Woggly has some decent stores, but they also have some stores in very poor condition (yes, I have been in them). I am sure that they would respect the urban environment enough to have a smaller store that fits into the surrounding area, but they are still "Piggly Wiggly" and that simply does not fit in an urban area. I think it would look silly to have a Bi-Lo or an Ingles there too, simply because they don't tend to have urban stores. Now something like Trader Joe's, Safeway, or Fresh Market? Now you're talking!

[vicupstate]

First, Fiddlestix's last post is 1000% dead-on correct.

As for Publix, it is an UPSCALE grocer compared to BiLo, Food Lion, Ingles, Winn Dixie, and just about any other chain you can name. They have attrctive stores, broad offerings and you pay more for that.

If I need a pre-made lemon pepper roasted chicken, I will go to Publix. If I need a gallon of Milk, I will go to Bi-Lo.

If it unfair to compare a Piggly Wiggly from 1980, or in Pelzer, to what would undoubtedly be built DT. A new store will be just that - NEW. It will be shiny and clean, and have the offerings and layout of modern day grocers.

Look at the M. Pleasant pics, that is what you will get, maybe even nicer. DT does indeed need infrastructure.

As for negative images, the only ones I have encountered have been in this forum. The significant presence of P.W. in Illinois and Wisconsin should be taken into consideration, when the southern apologists

in this thread feel embarassed by there heritage.

Lastly, please spare me the "people will come to DT to shop at Whole Foods or Earth Fare". These stores are ALREADY in the suburbs. Do you really think Mrs. Soccer Mom is going to drive her SUV past the one on Woodruff Road to shop at one DT?

[krazeeboi]

Wow, this thread is on fire! There have been some good thoughts all the way My problem with Piggly Wiggly is mostly their name. It has a negative connotation of dumb, Southern, and redneck.

You know, I have never thought that. There is an older Piggly Wiggly in Orangeburg, and my family and I used to frequent it for the meals prepared in the deli area, which are quite good. At some point, I just think you get over the name, and I don't think I ever had an issue with it. I mean, the name is "Piggly Wiggly"; if anything, I would think the name reflects the agricultural history of SC, not shotgun houses and Rebel flags plastered all over a broken-down, bullet-hole riddled pickup truck with no hubcaps and other typical Southern stereotypes. Actually, I thought the name "Harris Teeter" was funny when I first heard of the store.

[gs3]

First, Fiddlestix's last post is 1000% dead-on correct.

As for Publix, it is an UPSCALE grocer compared to BiLo, Food Lion, Ingles, Winn Dixie, and just about any other chain you can name. They have attrctive stores, broad offerings and you pay more for that.

If I need a pre-made lemon pepper roasted chicken, I will go to Publix. If I need a gallon of Milk, I will go to Bi-Lo.

If it unfair to compare a Piggly Wiggly from 1980, or in Pelzer, to what would undoubtedly be built DT. A new store will be just that - NEW. It will be shiny and clean, and have the offerings and layout of modern day grocers.

Look at the M. Pleasant pics, that is what you will get, maybe even nicer. DT does indeed need infrastructure.

As for negative images, the only ones I have encountered have been in this forum. The significant presence of P.W. in Illinois and Wisconsin should be taken into consideration, when the southern apologists

in this thread feel embarassed by there heritage.

Lastly, please spare me the "people will come to DT to shop at Whole Foods or Earth Fare". These stores are ALREADY in the suburbs. Do you really think Mrs. Soccer Mom is going to drive her SUV past the one on Woodruff Road to shop at one DT?

You forget about Trader Joes. Cheap AND unique. Why must the American capitalist society make people choose.....good price OR unique designs / offerings? European countries don't do this to the agree Americans do. Think IKEA. Trader Joes is doing the same for food. Why can't both price and unique offerings be together in the same store? Even the poorest Europeans eat FAR better than most Americans. Yes, if I want free range meat, fresh basil, red curry or fresh hummus, why can't it be in the same store with milk, bread, and eggs??? And can't all that be wrapped in a slick urban image??? The photo of the pig in Mt. Pleasant looks no different than Bi-Lo in Mauldin or Pelham Road.

As for the PW's in Wisconsin and Illinois, have any of you actually been to the rural towns in these states....no different than the South. Rural and poor. Fitting that these would be the expansion towns for The Pig.

[Greenville]

You know, I have never thought that. There is an older Piggly Wiggly in Orangeburg, and my family and I used to frequent it for the meals prepared in the deli area, which are quite good. At some point, I just think you get over the name, and I don't think I ever had an issue with it. I mean, the name is "Piggly Wiggly"; if anything, I would think the name reflects the agricultural history of SC, not shotgun houses and Rebel flags plastered all over a broken-down, bullet-hole riddled pickup truck with no hubcaps and other typical Southern stereotypes. Actually, I thought the name "Harris Teeter" was funny when I first heard of the store.

That is a hilarious description with "shotgun houses" and "pickup truck with no hubcaps," krazeeboi!

I think the problem with Piggly Wiggly, aside from the name, is that their stores vary a lot. Food Lion is like this as well. You can go to a fairly new and nice one, but you can also go to one that is old and in poor condition. Most of the ones I have seen and been in (which is only a handful) are not very good stores. I did not grow up with Piggly Wiggly. I had never heard of it until I went to the coast, and I thought it was a funny name. It is funny that you found Harris Teeter to be a funny name, because I was thinking earlier that a Harris Teeter would be okay downtown, that its name is unique in a good way.

You forget about Trader Joes. Cheap AND unique. Why must the American capitalist society make people choose.....good price OR unique designs / offerings? European countries don't do this to the agree Americans do. Think IKEA. Trader Joes is doing the same for food. Why can't both price and unique offerings be together in the same store? Even the poorest Europeans eat FAR better than most Americans. Yes, if I want free range meat, fresh basil, red curry or fresh hummus, why can't it be in the same store with milk, bread, and eggs??? And can't all that be wrapped in a slick urban image??? The photo of the pig in Mt. Pleasant looks no different than Bi-Lo in Mauldin or Pelham Road.

I shopped at Trader Joe's when I lived in DC for graduate school. There was not one in the District proper, but they had a few in the close suburbs. Nonetheless, one of my roommates and I would drive 15 minutes to Trader Joe's rather than driving 3 minutes to the Safeway right down the street. Why? Because we could get a LOT more for our money at Trader Joe's. Not only that, but the food was healthier (no preservatives or artificial ingredients) with unique offerings I couldn't get anywhere else. And the shopping experience was fun! If we ever get a Trader Joe's in Greenville, I will be ecstatic!

As for the PW's in Wisconsin and Illinois, have any of you actually been to the rural towns in these states....no different than the South. Rural and poor. Fitting that these would be the expansion towns for The Pig.

I totally agree, gsupstate. Rural is rural. The people might talk slightly differently depending on which area of the country you are in (not as differently as you might expect, though!), but the way of life is basically the same. The fact that Piggly Wiggly is in the Midwest doesn't cause me to increase my desire for them to be in Greenville's downtown.

[krazeeboi]

That is a hilarious description with "shotgun houses" and "pickup truck with no hubcaps," krazeeboi!

I try.

I think the problem with Piggly Wiggly, aside from the name, is that their stores vary a lot. Food Lion is like this as well. You can go to a fairly new and nice one, but you can also go to one that is old and in poor condition. Most of the ones I have seen and been in (which is only a handful) are not very good stores. I did not grow up with Piggly Wiggly. I had never heard of it until I went to the coast, and I thought it was a funny name. It is funny that you found Harris Teeter to be a funny name, because I was thinking earlier that a Harris Teeter would be okay downtown, that its name is unique in a good way.

I agree about the stores varying a bit. I really haven't experienced this firsthand, as the only one I've frequented was the one in Orangeburg--my grandmother and grand-aunt loved the store, but my mom preferred Bi-Lo. But I've known HT's to vary somewhat too, at least here in Rock Hill. The one by campus isn't as nice as the one next to the walled-in McMansion subdivision on Celanese Road. But I guess that's to be expected. And HT's do indeed make good DT stores, as the one in Charleston demonstrates.

I totally agree, gsupstate. Rural is rural. The people might talk slightly differently depending on which area of the country you are in (not as differently as you might expect, though!), but the way of life is basically the same. The fact that Piggly Wiggly is in the Midwest doesn't cause me to increase my desire for them to be in Greenville's downtown.

I think the original point about the Pig's presence in the Midwest was that the chain is familiar to those outside of SC, as I really had no idea it had such an expansive presence.

[Fiddlestix]

First, Fiddlestix's last post is 1000% dead-on correct.

Regrettably, vicupstate, my "last post" before yours was the one where I said I'm in serious need of psychotherapy.... You don't need to reply as I'm just going to assume you meant the one BEFORE my last post. Don't burst my bubble to correct me.

The closest Trader Joe's to downtown is in Newport News...or Tysons Corner, VA -- depending on how the traffic on I-95 is running. Don't hold your breath anyone. Unless you're vicupstate and you meant "last post" and not "the one before the last post."

As for Safeways and Giants...I've been in some suburban stores of those chains that are total crap with half bare shelfs that aren't properly mounted, flickering flourescents, linoleum flooring peeling up, etc. And in downtown, I've been to very nice ones -- the one across from what was the Soviet Embassy in DC was nice. And the Giant (once part of Ahold) had an urbanized variation called "Food Emporium," I believe. The key thing, of course, was whether they had what I needed, not whether it was cool or helped me overcome my insecurities about city living. I've only shopped for groceries to be trendy once, at the Disco Kroger in Atlanta (near Buckhead) where there were always hot babes and it was on my way home. I got my can of "Manwich" (or Kroger-brand Sloppy Joe concoction), some hamburger buns and a 6-pack of St. Pauli Girl and didn't meet a single single woman. I decided after that I may as well just shop at my regular Kroger's.

The difference in Piggly Wiggly's may have to do with the different franchisees. I've just now become aware that there are different franchisees for the store. The one that operates the Charleston area stores has some nice locations. Of course they may have some P-O-S locations, too. But if Piggly Wiggly -- or their Charleston-based franchisee were to announce that they'd like Greenville to be the launching pad to their new, superslick "High on the Hog" city living groceries and that they'd go whole hog in putting it together and other franchisees and cities would look to Greenville as the model for what they're doing, would it be more interesting? Or is the name Piggly Wiggly too hard to get beyond?

When I worked in one major city, we could be very casual during the summer and would wear shorts and Izods or Polo shirts to the office. I had a similar job in Charlotte and anything casual was strictly verboten. Not even a "casual Friday." Same brain function. Same job. It was just that the people in Charlotte (pre-Panthers) wanted so much to be something more and couldn't laugh at themselves. Yes, insecure. I'd like for us to have enough self-confidence about Greenville to think that the downtown won't go to hell in a handbasket if Piggly Wiggly were to open a store here, even on Main Street. Greenville will remain a "wannabe" location as long as people here run scared of the little things that the big cities seem to be able to weather or shrug off -- or, frankly, add to their character.

I've just decided that I now actually long for the day when Piggly Wiggly announcing its coming to downtown doesn't cause hand-wringing on this board. That's when I'll know Greenville has come of age.

[Greenville]

I think the original point about the Pig's presence in the Midwest was that the chain is familiar to those outside of SC, as I really had no idea it had such an expansive presence.

It was, and it is interesting how much territory Piggly Wiggly covers. I only learned that a few weeks ago when we were talking about the Piggy Wiggly shirts with the big logo on the front. I looking for a picture of the shirt, and although I never found one, I did come across some of their store pages in the Midwest. Regardless of the images Piggly Wiggly conjures up in people's minds, you have to admit that they are obviously doing something right to grow the business like they have.

[Greenville]

Regrettably, vicupstate, my "last post" before yours was the one where I said I'm in serious need of psychotherapy.... You don't need to reply as I'm just going to assume you meant the one BEFORE my last post. Don't burst my bubble to correct me.

The closest Trader Joe's to downtown is in Newport News...or Tysons Corner, VA -- depending on how the traffic on I-95 is running. Don't hold your breath anyone. Unless you're vicupstate and you meant "last post" and not "the one before the last post."

As for Safeways and Giants...I've been in some suburban stores of those chains that are total crap with half bare shelfs that aren't properly mounted, flickering flourescents, linoleum flooring peeling up, etc. And in downtown, I've been to very nice ones -- the one across from what was the Soviet Embassy in DC was nice. And the Giant (once part of Ahold) had an urbanized variation called "Food Emporium," I believe. The key thing, of course, was whether they had what I needed, not whether it was cool or helped me overcome my insecurities about city living. I've only shopped for groceries to be trendy once, at the Disco Kroger in Atlanta (near Buckhead) where there were always hot babes and it was on my way home. I got my can of "Manwich" (or Kroger-brand Sloppy Joe concoction), some hamburger buns and a 6-pack of St. Pauli Girl and didn't meet a single single woman. I decided after that I may as well just shop at my regular Kroger's.

The difference in Piggly Wiggly's may have to do with the different franchisees. I've just now become aware that there are different franchisees for the store. The one that operates the Charleston area stores has some nice locations. Of course they may have some P-O-S locations, too. But if Piggly Wiggly -- or their Charleston-based franchisee were to announce that they'd like Greenville to be the launching pad to their new, superslick "High on the Hog" city living groceries and that they'd go whole hog in putting it together and other franchisees and cities would look to Greenville as the model for what they're doing, would it be more interesting? Or is the name Piggly Wiggly too hard to get beyond?

When I worked in one major city, we could be very casual during the summer and would wear shorts and Izods or Polo shirts to the office. I had a similar job in Charlotte and anything casual was strictly verboten. Not even a "casual Friday." Same brain function. Same job. It was just that the people in Charlotte (pre-Panthers) wanted so much to be something more and couldn't laugh at themselves. Yes, insecure. I'd like for us to have enough self-confidence about Greenville to think that the downtown won't go to hell in a handbasket if Piggly Wiggly were to open a store here, even on Main Street. Greenville will remain a "wannabe" location as long as people here run scared of the little things that the big cities seem to be able to weather or shrug off -- or, frankly, add to their character.

I've just decided that I now actually long for the day when Piggly Wiggly announcing its coming to downtown doesn't cause hand-wringing on this board. That's when I'll know Greenville has come of age.

Good points, although I think it is a stretch to conclude that one company in Charlotte characterizes the feelings of everyone else in the city. Do you really think that your one example of a company in Charlotte not wanting casual Friday means that Charlotte was a "wannabe" city? Perhaps the owner didn't like the idea of people dressing casually. I know plenty of businesses in Greenville that have casual Friday, and I also know of a lot that haven't given in to the trend to go more casual at work. Either way, it comes down to preference and I don't feel that it reflects a city's opinion of its place in the world.

The Piggly Wiggly thing isn't insecurity on my part, and I don't think it is insecurity for anyone else here either. The point is that it isn't the best fit. Obviously Greenville won't fall apart and become a ghost town if Piggly Wiggly opens an urban location, but is it optimal? Many of us don't think so.

I didn't realize that caring about your city's appeal and presentation meant that you are insecure about it. If I lived in Manhattan, I would be just as opposed (or perhaps even more opposed) at the idea of Piggly Wiggly opening a store there. It simply doesn't seem to fit in a downtown, urban location. And for a city like Greenville that is growing and wowing people on a daily basis, things like this are worth analyzing. Don't you agree?

[krazeeboi]

^Good point. The deli in the PW in Orangeburg serves up some serious Southern home cooking!

[gs3]

Good points, although I think it is a stretch to conclude that one company in Charlotte characterizes the feelings of everyone else in the city. Do you really think that your one example of a company in Charlotte not wanting casual Friday means that Charlotte was a "wannabe" city? Perhaps the owner didn't like the idea of people dressing casually. I know plenty of businesses in Greenville that have casual Friday, and I also know of a lot that haven't given in to the trend to go more casual at work. Either way, it comes down to preference and I don't feel that it reflects a city's opinion of its place in the world.

The Piggly Wiggly thing isn't insecurity on my part, and I don't think it is insecurity for anyone else here either. The point is that it isn't the best fit. Obviously Greenville won't fall apart and become a ghost town if Piggly Wiggly opens an urban location, but is it optimal? Many of us don't think so.

I didn't realize that caring about your city's appeal and presentation meant that you are insecure about it. If I lived in Manhattan, I would be just as opposed (or perhaps even more opposed) at the idea of Piggly Wiggly opening a store there. It simply doesn't seem to fit in a downtown, urban location. And for a city like Greenville that is growing and wowing people on a daily basis, things like this are worth analyzing. Don't you agree?

Great points Greenville! Fiddlestix, I see your points, but I might add that I fell in love with Greenville because of all this "hand wringing" as you call it.....the fact that SO many people care about SO MANY details.....the fact that people actually actually care about what kind of store goes in downtown, the fact that so many people care about the a small 30 foot plot of grass in Piazza Bergamo, the fact that so many care about DETAILS! I think this is FANTASTIC and shows a truely involved city!!! Involved citizens. Far from running from something, Greenvillians embrace everything head on!!! Would any of us want to live in a city with an apathetic attitude.....a city where no one cares what kind of store goes downtown??? I think not. I for one value every single opinion.....those opinions and that caring to get into the nitty gritty details are the qualities that I hold dear.....the qualities that give us that famous "quality of life". Piggly Wiggly simply does not fit downtown Greenville in my opinion.