CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More

[KJHburg]

If one of you attends one of these open forums about the new CTC let us know what they say.

https://www.charlottenc.gov/CATS/News/CATS-Announces-Public-Meetings-for-CTC-Redevelopment-Update

[jednc]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:40 PM, JeanClt said:

The Oculus:



Does look cool.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is what it will end up looking like...

Edited May 16, 2023 by jednc

[15895]

If I were still living in Charlotte and could attend, I’d vocally be against this. I don’t think it makes sense from what I understand. 

Maybe it’s my lack of knowledge (who owns the CTC currently etc). But the reason I would be opposed is, I think CLT should go all in with Gateway. Why couldn’t they sell CTC and allocate funds to Gateway, etc. Even if it causes more delays to Gateway Station, I think it’s unfortunately worth it.  I don’t get the need for a revised new facility at CTC. 

Anyone have clarity on the thought process? Who here supports the CTC project that could explain your view on why this project makes sense? (I do like the renderings and in a world where money and resources were infinite, of course I’d be down with it. It looks nice. It looks good. It seems good. But the broader context just seems wrong) 
 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[J-Rob]

I thought there wasn't enough space for this at Gateway, but that's not a defense or support of either project. Just my perhaps faulty recollection. I will say this: In a vacuum separate from Gateway, I am excited for the CTC to be redeveloped . When you combine new ownership at EpiCenter with CTC redevelopment and Moxy development, it could create a cool corridor for the Hornets and the city to maximize. Right now, the stretch is just sad, and somewhat perplexing, given it is within sightline of the Trade and Tryon intersection. 

[kermit]

Yea, a quick look at the latest google sat images reveals these 4 blocks to be the most underutilzed in Uptown  (aside from some 2nd ward stuff and Levine land). Some type of change is certainly needed here, and I suspect the current CTC is one of the big things that has prevented any spillovers developing from the arena.

I am pretty ambivalent about moving buses underground, and the cost of this is… but this site is at least 2 blocks closer to the square than a Gateway station site could be so I do see some logic to the project.

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

Valid points. Especially if Gateway would be too small and maybe the cost of burying the buses would lead to development of all of those underutilized blocks. It definitely looks nice in rendering so at least there’s that. It’s an exciting project otherwise. 

[TCLT]

This location is more central to more destinations and also adjacent to our two existing rail lines, allowing for a much wider array of connections and quicker, more efficient trips. Given the silver line is at least 15 years away from revenue service, putting the bus hub at Gateway Station is essentially forcing all buses to go to what's essentially no man's land for a decade. Which is a terrible way to improve the transit experience. I'm pretty sure Gateway is going to include some level local bus service anyway which should be sufficient to serve the needs of Amtrak and Greyhound riders.

Edited May 16, 2023 by TCLT

[SydneyCarton]

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlotte-hornets/article276481711.html

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[RANYC]

Reading on twitter from a QC Nerve Contributor that the Hornets are abandoning plans for the Practice facility in the CTC Re-do (or as I call it, "Never-Do") and instead will build on the parking lot currently housing Brooklyn Lounge.  Does anyone have ideas for what else a practice facility can be besides one big single-story gym?

Edited August 3, 2023 by RANYC

[carolinaboy]

3 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Reading on twitter from a QC Nerve Contributor that the Hornets are abandoning plans for the Hornets practice facility in the CTC Re-do, or as I call it "Never-Do," and instead will build on the parking lot currently housing Brooklyn Lounge.  Does anyone have ideas for what else a practice facility can be besides one big single-story gym?

Hopefully this will be part of a new mixed-use tower (residential/hospitality).

[J-Rob]

31 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Reading on twitter from a QC Nerve Contributor that the Hornets are abandoning plans for the Practice facility in the CTC Re-do (or as I call it, "Never-Do") and instead will build on the parking lot currently housing Brooklyn Lounge.  Does anyone have ideas for what else a practice facility can be besides one big single-story gym?

I would imagine it might have multiple courts, or multiple partial courts, plus enhanced training and therapeutic areas.

[DonkeyKong]

Probably very similar to what the ATL Hawks have.  

https://www.hok.com/projects/view/emory-sports-medicine-complex-atlanta-hawks-training-facility/

[KJHburg]

48 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Reading on twitter from a QC Nerve Contributor that the Hornets are abandoning plans for the Practice facility in the CTC Re-do (or as I call it, "Never-Do") and instead will build on the parking lot currently housing Brooklyn Lounge.  Does anyone have ideas for what else a practice facility can be besides one big single-story gym?

Yes I do and I just read about this the Spurs new training facility, private club and restaurant in the swank La Cantera area of San Antonio.    The Rock at La Cantera! (and yes it was an old limestone quarry site)   This is a suburban NW location.  

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/04/18/spurs-share-timeline-for-new-practice-facility-500m-campus-on-far-northwest-side/

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2023/07/24/Facilities/san-antonio-spurs-practice-facility.aspx

I would think this could be the new model for NBA training facilities but wonder how much space they are talking.  

also in terms of the Hornets building a high rise along with a training facility is probably way too long a process for them.  It could be years before the underground CTC and adjoining tower gets going.  Look at the stall of many private financed projects and one only needs to look at the 20 plus year Gateway project.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by KJHburg

[kermit]

Seems like a lost opportunity not to put this facility Med School-adjacent (near the Pearl) for some sports medicine sponsorship opportunities. Would be a nice anchor for an orthopedics program.

I guess space in the Pearl is getting kinda tight already thanks to the Belk hogging most of the land over there.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Yes I do and I just read about this the Spurs new training facility, private club and restaurant in the swank La Cantera area of San Antonio.    The Rock at La Cantera! (and yes it was an old limestone quarry site)   This is a suburban NW location.  

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/04/18/spurs-share-timeline-for-new-practice-facility-500m-campus-on-far-northwest-side/

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2023/07/24/Facilities/san-antonio-spurs-practice-facility.aspx

I would think this could be the new model for NBA training facilities but wonder how much space they are talking.  

also in terms of the Hornets building a high rise along with a training facility is probably way too long a process for them.  It could be years before the underground CTC and adjoining tower gets going.  Look at the stall of many private financed projects and one only needs to look at the 20 plus year Gateway project.  

Does anyone know if this might be a pivot initiated by the new owners, or was it already in the works?

You mean the stall of publicly-financed projects, yes?  I lay our inaction at the feet of Jones-Lyles.  Taiwo should  be our city manager. 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Seems like a great opportunity to put a nice restaurant/sports bar maybe overlooking the practice courts and implement a state of the art sports book in there since it will be legal now. I don’t know where they could place a sizable sports book in spectrum currently. This new facility could be an attractive place to put it and would also generate foot traffic 7 days a week. 

[RANYC]

My memory of this is somewhat blurred, but wasn't a lucrative "district" naming rights deal supposed to cover the city's financing of the practice facility?  I was skeptical when reading that a city could just offer up naming rights for an otherwise unknown, uninteresting, unimpressive stretch of inner city corridor to, poof, materialize dollars to fund a world-class sports facility.  I suppose crazier things have happened, however.  But now with this facility potentially going across Brevard north of the arena, how do you stitch together any sort of valuable naming rights proposal?  Or was this always supposed to just be naming rights on the building itself, so whereas Spectrum gets the arena, some new corporate buyer gets to name the practice facility?

[CLT Development]

59 minutes ago, RANYC said:

My memory of this is somewhat blurred, but wasn't a lucrative "district" naming rights deal supposed to cover the city's financing of the practice facility?  I was skeptical when reading that a city could just offer up naming rights for an otherwise unknown, uninteresting, unimpressive stretch of inner city corridor to, poof, materialize dollars to fund a world-class sports facility.  I suppose crazier things have happened, however.  But now with this facility potentially going across Brevard north of the arena, how do you stitch together any sort of valuable naming rights proposal?  Or was this always supposed to just be naming rights on the building itself, so whereas Spectrum gets the arena, some new corporate buyer gets to name the practice facility?

I think it was naming rights for the facility itself, but yea, I'm starting to grow weary of any project the county/city is involved with overall.

[CLT2014]

But will it be a Target or pickelball court on top of a bus terminal? Maybe we should hire some consultants to help figure that out? 

[RANYC]

Holy Cow - Check out these renderings of the proposed new Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan.  Who could've imagined this is how one might encounter a bus station at ground-level.  Put me in mind of our CTC Re-Do.  Guess it's back to the drawing board on that as well given the long-term outlook for the office market?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/01/nyregion/port-authority-bus-terminal-replacement.html

Edited February 3 by RANYC

[MarcoPolo]

The PA's new bus terminal and accompanying mixed use development is truly spectacular @RANYC.   As for your question about it too being negatively affected by the COVID slump in NYC's office market, the short answer is no.   While the "trends" impacting office use in NYC and CLT are the same, there are sufficient differences in the size and breadth of the two markets to nullify attempts to correlate outcomes, if that is the direction your question was aimed?    These differences manifest themselves specifically in demand, net supply removal, rental rate increase, and facility need.   As an aside, the original proposal did anticipate several towers, while the one selected anticipates two, an acknowledgment that the velocity of office take-up has changed in the short to mid-term.   For those bored enough to discuss more...continue reading some observations below  

First let's discuss "facility need".   The PA's bus terminal is woefully inadequate and extraordinarily burdensome for both the users and service providers it houses.   A replacement has been warranted for a couple of decades, having reaching a breaking point economically, and environmentally from an operational perspective over the last several years.   Charlotte's "need" for a new rail station is aspirational for the most part.  Our current station (if we dare consider it such) has no "capacity" issue.  It's location may not be optimum, and its design and appearance  embarrassing, but there is no crises needing resolution by its relocation and upgrade as regards immediate service needs and negative externalities to the community at large.   And, the critical variable in the redevelopment of the PA Bus Terminal equation is the City's current office profile, and how it is evolving post COVID.   This variable in particular is what lets NYC's project pencil out, where as in Charlotte, it has caused delay/reconsideration.   

Currently Manhattan has approximately 130 to 150 million ft2 of Trophy and Class A office stock (Vanderbilt Tower, Hudson Yards etc and the dozens of newer and refurbished 15 to 30 story boutique towers for the multitude of denizens of the financial and investment ecosystems, scattered about Manhattan).  This figure represents only multi-tenant and single tenant private sector space, not institutional/gov't public space totals.   As of the last half of 2023 (and continuing into the first month of 2024) the demand for office space of all classes (including B and C properties) reached 75% of pre-COVID levels in Manhattan, (new leases signed, leases submitted, leases renewed, tires kicked, etc).  That's astounding when one considers 2019 was a robust year historically for offices in NYC.   The 2023 number represents a 40% increase from 2022 levels, and is the highest figure across the top 20 US metros, which together only averaged a  20% increase in office demand.   NYC is on track to lease approximately 30 million square feet of office in 2024, on par with what is considered a healthy year historically for the City's office market.   At this run rate, 2025 will usher a return to pre-COVID conditions.  What supports this rosy forecast?   The underlying fundamentals and continued evolution of the Big Apples office sector.   Let me explain.  

The most significant factors contributing to the rebound are; the immense stock of class B and C office space, (much of which is housed in now obsolete pre war, and early post war buildings, totaling some 250 million ft2); and the impressive rental rate growth in Trophy and Class A buildings.  Many B and C properties have been and continue to be repurposed for other uses.  COVID accelerated this process, (which has been steadily reducing overall inventory for years), at just the time when a significant set of office users are clamoring for new, state-of-the-art, "healthy" space.   The leasing percentages quoted in the paragraph above are almost entirely centered on the City's Trophy and Class A space.   Within the giant, deep ocean of existing office space in Manhattan, Trophy and class A office buildings poke out like islands,  accounting for 73% of Manhattan's leasing activity last year while representing only 25% of its total inventory.  Unsurprisingly such buildings also experienced an average increase in rental rates of over 16%, reaching the highest per square foot values ever for Trophy properties.   With interest rates beginning their downward trajectory this year the ocean of B and C properties will continue to recede, and the islands of Trophy and Class A properties will continue to grow.   And that's just from the thousands of small players currently in the Manhattan market.   The demand side must also take into account the constant international entries to the City, as well as the handful of whales (already in the Manhattan market) looking for islands to expand upon.   The later numbered at least three confirmed, requiring an average of 1.2 million sf2 each.   That's 3 to 4 skyscrapers "on deck" so to speak, some supetralls, in addition to a few single tenant towers, also in the works.   It generally takes a minimum lead time of 3+ years from construction start to occupancy, in the best circumstances, for office tower delivery in Manhattan, so the office inventory proposed for the Bus Terminal redevelopment is a no brainer.   Even with higher interest rates, office construction of Trophy space continues in NYC, along Billionaires Row for example, in smaller 20+ story buildings.   Later this year into mid next year as interest rates recede to the upper 3%, low 4% range office construction will commence in earnest in the Big Apple and class A/Trophy locations, such as the new Bus Terminal, will be highly sought after.

Charlotte's total office market (all of Mecklenburg County) by comparison is significantly smaller.  Of the total only 25% to 30% is Class B and C, and almost all of that is located in the suburbs (outside Uptown/Midtown/Southend).  The Queen City is a new City with most of our office stock built since the early 1980's, and we've been fairly systematic in demolishing the tiny inventory of older building stock once present.   Suburban space users are not inclined to pack up and move to the center city in search of new space...quality, or not.  They will continue to surf the suburbs and find homes there...mostly in Ballantyne, Southpark, The River District, Waverly, and University City.  That leaves a handful of "upgrade" prospects in uptown, and many of these have already made their moves into new space at Legacy Union as commented on in one of @CLT Development posts, and over to Southend.  Our ocean is much shallower in that regard.   The number of Class B and C properties uptown that haven't already engaged in redevelopment (ie: old Duke Power building) can be counted on one hand and represent small numbers of potential users as these building already have significant vacancies.  We also do not have a pipeline of potential center city inclined, "new to market" prospects to rely on.  These factors, in addition to a less robust leasing  growth rate across the higher-end Trophy and Class A building, make what's left of Charlotte's "potential" office market small, and thus enslaved to externalities such as interest rates.    The new bus terminal project is already a risky office proposition based on location vis-a-vi other more desirable places like Southend.  The uncertainty of transit was the final straw.   The proforma for the Project does not yet pencil out with only some retail and residential serving as anchors.   It really depended on the office.    And, given the City's dismal track record with PPP's and incentives in general, the Project will continue to depend on office.   But, like I posted earlier, the day will come.  Just slower than we all would like   

[Windsurfer]

Great comment.  Just trying to remember, wasn't there a firm that moved to The South End, or uptown from the suburbs recently?

"Suburban space users are not inclined to pack up and move to the center city in search of new space...quality, or not.  They will continue to surf the suburbs and find homes there...mostly in Ballantyne, Southpark, The River District, Waverly, and University City.  That leaves a handful of "upgrade" prospects in uptown, and many..."

[KJHburg]

Back on track according to acting CATS exec.

""Charlotte’s top transit executive said yesterday that, despite months of little to no public discussion of a proposed redevelopment of the Charlotte Transportation Center, the project will soon start moving forward.

The 2.6-acre bus hub sits across the street from Spectrum Center, bounded by East Trade, South Brevard and East Fourth streets and the Lynx Blue Line. The CTC opened in 1995. In June 2022, Charlotte City Council approved a $275 million package of arena upgrades for the NBA Charlotte Hornets that included $60 million for a new practice center. At the time, city administrators preferred to include the practice center in a new transportation center, pitching the practice facility as an anchor for a project including retail, office and parking atop the bus hub.

Yesterday, during council’s monthly economic development committee meeting, Brent Cagle, interim CEO of Charlotte Area Transit System, offered an update on the CTC after months of silence by city officials.

Cagle said several key steps will occur by the end of this year, starting with an anticipated rezoning request for the property within several weeks. Private developers White Point Partners and Dart Interests secured rights from the city to redevelop the CTC in 2019.

“It’s always been a project to replace the CTC and have private development over-build on the same parcel,” Cagle told the committee. “That has not changed.”

Within the next two months, council will be asked to officially accept a $15 million federal grant awarded in 2021 to help pay to replace the existing transportation center. 

It will take roughly two years to build a new CTC. During that time, a temporary station is planned on adjacent property owned by the developers. Cagle said those plans remain intact.

Just before Cagle spoke, Malcolm Graham, the council member who serves as committee chair, shared his disappointment about the lengthy silence regarding the CTC.""
Charlotte transit chief on next steps for transportation hub - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

[Desert Power]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:25 PM, SydneyCarton said:

I hope that this gets built.  This is a very impressive tower.

This looks so tall

[RANYC]

On 3/5/2024 at 6:10 PM, KJHburg said:

Back on track according to acting CATS exec.

""Charlotte’s top transit executive said yesterday that, despite months of little to no public discussion of a proposed redevelopment of the Charlotte Transportation Center, the project will soon start moving forward.

The 2.6-acre bus hub sits across the street from Spectrum Center, bounded by East Trade, South Brevard and East Fourth streets and the Lynx Blue Line. The CTC opened in 1995. In June 2022, Charlotte City Council approved a $275 million package of arena upgrades for the NBA Charlotte Hornets that included $60 million for a new practice center. At the time, city administrators preferred to include the practice center in a new transportation center, pitching the practice facility as an anchor for a project including retail, office and parking atop the bus hub.

Yesterday, during council’s monthly economic development committee meeting, Brent Cagle, interim CEO of Charlotte Area Transit System, offered an update on the CTC after months of silence by city officials.

Cagle said several key steps will occur by the end of this year, starting with an anticipated rezoning request for the property within several weeks. Private developers White Point Partners and Dart Interests secured rights from the city to redevelop the CTC in 2019.

“It’s always been a project to replace the CTC and have private development over-build on the same parcel,” Cagle told the committee. “That has not changed.”

Within the next two months, council will be asked to officially accept a $15 million federal grant awarded in 2021 to help pay to replace the existing transportation center. 

It will take roughly two years to build a new CTC. During that time, a temporary station is planned on adjacent property owned by the developers. Cagle said those plans remain intact.

Just before Cagle spoke, Malcolm Graham, the council member who serves as committee chair, shared his disappointment about the lengthy silence regarding the CTC.""
Charlotte transit chief on next steps for transportation hub - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

back on track?...so it, too, had derailed?