Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[SuffolkWahoo]

43 minutes ago, HRVA said:

First casino license issued in Danville. Hopefully a sign of others to shortly follow. 

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/va-lottery-board-awards-first-casino-license/?oly_enc_id=5578C4114245D9O

That Danville casino rendition looks like a community college/small hospital.  Yikes.  Makes me like the Headwaters renditions even more.

[Norf Native]

I would have thought the other casino licenses would have come pretty quickly since Danville recently got theirs.  Oh well...

[mintscraft56]

Portsmouth Casino already reached a milestone while ours in Norfolk remains a pile of materials and questions about why danville got one.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/portsmouth/rivers-casino-portsmouth-steel-beam-topping-off/291-0182af6c-06cd-4ef1-b23c-cd8e8b21455e

[Icetera]

1 hour ago, mintscraft56 said:

Portsmouth Casino already reached a milestone while ours in Norfolk remains a pile of materials and questions about why danville got one.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/portsmouth/rivers-casino-portsmouth-steel-beam-topping-off/291-0182af6c-06cd-4ef1-b23c-cd8e8b21455e

So it took slightly longer than a typical Walmart?  Sounds about right.  Did they completely remove the hotel or are the renderings just showing a Phase 1?

[HRVA]

51 minutes ago, Icetera said:

So it took slightly longer than a typical Walmart?  Sounds about right.  Did they completely remove the hotel or are the renderings just showing a Phase 1?

Last I saw, the hotel was a future phase. I drove by a couple of weeks ago and it looks like a giant big box shopping center. I’m sure it’ll be nice but my expectation is the Norfolk casino will be the premier casino in the state. 

[zeppelin14]

The Portsmouth casino will be a locals casino where people will simply go to gamble. Not a high-rollers place at all. Expect a "penny slots" kind of crowd. The hotel is the second phase.

The Norfolk casino isn't even materials on the ground yet.

Senator Lucas shouldn't be allowed to have her corrupted mitts anywhere near this or any other project.

[vdogg]

7 minutes ago, zeppelin14 said:

The Portsmouth casino will be a locals casino where people will simply go to gamble. Not a high-rollers place at all. Expect a "penny slots" kind of crowd. The hotel is the second phase.

The Norfolk casino isn't even materials on the ground yet.

Senator Lucas shouldn't be allowed to have her corrupted mitts anywhere near this or any other project.

Without Lucas, there would be no casinos anywhere in the state. I understand that she’s a controversial individual, but it cannot be overstated how much of a part the legislation she wrote, as well as her almost singular boosterism on casinos in Virginia over the past decade, played in the fact that we have casinos today.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

Sorry to tell you all Norfolk casino probably will NOT be better than Portsmouth casino, and if Richmond votes Yes for their casino then I believe they'll have the premier casino in the state. Rivers casino being the 1st in the state is huge, especially now when 2-3 casino are starting in a temporary location. I think Rivers is betting on cashing in early, and often. Also I can only imagine rooms in the area will start to see more traffic in 2023 due to Rivers, so it's kind of an area win they aren't building the hotel now. I can imagine a courtyard or some smaller hotel chain may build in the area of the casino soon, it's alot of open land. Rivers will also be a concert venue.

Norfolk casino isn't moving fast and honestly whenever a project moves slow the more likely it will be changed, and usually changes comes at a negative for the overall project. I really wanted Norfolk to get a big name casino in the area like Caesar or MGM I believe those companies have the means to have built Norfolk casino quicker.  If Rivers becomes established as a good casino, Headwaters will have a hard time trying to catch up, I'm almost sure that's why all these companies want a temporary location to establish some footing before Rivers becomes the state ONLY fully operational casino. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[vdogg]

55 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Sorry to tell you all Norfolk casino probably will NOT be better than Portsmouth casino, and if Richmond votes Yes for their casino then I believe they'll have the premier casino in the state. Rivers casino being the 1st in the state is huge, especially now when 2-3 casino are starting in a temporary location. I think Rivers is betting on cashing in early, and often. Also I can only imagine rooms in the area will start to see more traffic in 2023 due to Rivers, so it's kind of an area win they aren't building the hotel now. I can imagine a courtyard or some smaller hotel chain may build in the area of the casino soon, it's alot of open land. Rivers will also be a concert venue.

Norfolk casino isn't moving fast and honestly whenever a project moves slow the more likely it will be changed, and usually changes comes at a negative for the overall project. I really wanted Norfolk to get a big name casino in the area like Caesar or MGM I believe those companies have the means to have built Norfolk casino quicker.  If Rivers becomes established as a good casino, Headwaters will have a hard time trying to catch up, I'm almost sure that's why all these companies want a temporary location to establish some footing before Rivers becomes the state ONLY fully operational casino. 

Rivers is opening with no hotel. It's basically a temporary casino, just like the one the Pamunkey are building at Harbor Park, until that hotel is built. Without a dedicated hotel connected to the Casino, it basically is a locals casino like someone else mentioned up thread. There is more to success than being first to market, though that is a definite plus. Design, location, and accessibility are key and the most important factors in the long run. While I am certainly disappointed that we won't be getting that 30-story tower the Pamunkey initially tantalized us with, it is almost undeniable that, on paper, the Norfolk casino is designed to be higher quality in every metric. We'll have to wait and see what the final product looks like. Truth be told, as much as I despise them, I'm quite curious as to what Cordish would have brought to the table.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

1 hour ago, vdogg said:

Rivers is opening with no hotel. It's basically a temporary casino, just like the one the Pamunkey are building at Harbor Park, until that hotel is built. Without a dedicated hotel connected to the Casino, it basically is a locals casino like someone else mentioned up thread. There is more to success than being first to market, though that is a definite plus. Design, location, and accessibility are key and the most important factors in the long run. While I am certainly disappointed that we won't be getting that 30-story tower the Pamunkey initially tantalized us with, it is almost undeniable that, on paper, the Norfolk casino is designed to be higher quality in every metric. We'll have to wait and see what the final product looks like. Truth be told, as much as I despise them, I'm quite curious as to what Cordish would have brought to the table.

I don't believe seeing  Dover or Ocean Downs with a hotel, and those places stay packed with buses all year long. I think your over estimating the importance of a hotel, especially in the case of Headwaters they literally are in walking distance of 6+ hotels. And I can't believe that the quality of Headwaters is going to be that much better, they haven't even started building and want to put a temporary casino on Harbor park. That's the kind of decision that will have people not too excited to even come back let alone visit. Where exactly are you guys getting this local casino thing from.... The area is big and a casino is only an added amenity I'm sure thousands of tourist will come just to make the vacation more exciting. 

Norfolk done some underhanded buisness to get this casino. Cordish should have had the opportunity to build 1st. The fact that Norfolk didn't go about this in good nature could come back to bite the city. I believe Danville casino is being delayed and considering Pamunkey is a tribe casino things may not go as planned. Plus cordish probably has deeper pocket and access to better developers than Pamunkey. I just feel like Norfolk is picking up leftovers, everywhere else Pamunkey wanted to build didn't want them including their native territorial lands.

And considering Richmond literally courted 5 different companies and Norfolk just took the 1st opportunity is worrying too. Norfolk should of had more competition for this casino especially considering the national casinos willing to open in Richmond. But in the ever going one up attitude in Hampton Roads, Norfolk needed a casino because Portsmouth was getting theirs. I honestly hope it bits them in the ass so the area can stop doing redundant sh*t. I hate to keep comparing to Richmond but look at what that city is doing with it baseball stadium, and arena. Norfolk competes with Portsmouth and that just sad, considering it so much more Norfolk could focus on to keep it relevant. Rant over

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

I also base my opinion on my time in the hotel industry. It wasn't uncommon to have tourists stay in Norfolk or Portsmouth but drive to the Oceanfront or Williamsburg 25 and 45 mins away from DT Norfolk and Portsmouth. People are willing to travel for a good time and considering DT Norfolk is only 10 mins from Rivers that's an easy drive and a abundance of hotel rooms. Portsmouth isn't Danville or Bristol, it actually places to stay already within 15 mins of the casino. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[mintscraft56]

2 hours ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Sorry to tell you all Norfolk casino probably will NOT be better than Portsmouth casino, and if Richmond votes Yes for their casino then I believe they'll have the premier casino in the state. Rivers casino being the 1st in the state is huge, especially now when 2-3 casino are starting in a temporary location. I think Rivers is betting on cashing in early, and often. Also I can only imagine rooms in the area will start to see more traffic in 2023 due to Rivers, so it's kind of an area win they aren't building the hotel now. I can imagine a courtyard or some smaller hotel chain may build in the area of the casino soon, it's alot of open land. Rivers will also be a concert venue.

Norfolk casino isn't moving fast and honestly whenever a project moves slow the more likely it will be changed, and usually changes comes at a negative for the overall project. I really wanted Norfolk to get a big name casino in the area like Caesar or MGM I believe those companies have the means to have built Norfolk casino quicker.  If Rivers becomes established as a good casino, Headwaters will have a hard time trying to catch up, I'm almost sure that's why all these companies want a temporary location to establish some footing before Rivers becomes the state ONLY fully operational casino. 

IT better be better than theirs. Portsmouth has been in a long Brotherhood with Norfolk but as the central city and metro in the area we should be getting the somewhat better end of things if we want to make the area and city as a whole look better.

[baobabs727]

There’s so much to unpack here, lol. I don’t even know where to begin. First of all, Louise Lucas is a problematic figure, to put it nicely. However, she did raise awareness on the casino issue over the past decade or so and deserves credit for Portsmouth’s casino.  As far as Norfolk goes, and I have said this from the beginning, the City definitely should have opened things up via an RFP much like Richmond did. I don’t really think that needs additional splainin’.

RE:  Norfolk versus Portsmouth— I have no doubt that Headwinds will be larger, more luxurious and better positioned to grab the lion’s share of regional gambling revenues than will Rivers. 

[Arctic_Tern]

I for one am glad that Cordish isn't building the Casino. From everything I've seen and heard irt the Waterside development they're a prima donna of a company, and we don't need more of their drama trying in our City.

I would be flabbergasted if the Portsmouth Casino turns out as nice as the Norfolk one. If Portsmouth's casino ever fails and is turned into a Walmart I don't think anyone would notice the difference.

[BeagleAccountant]

20 hours ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Sorry to tell you all Norfolk casino probably will NOT be better than Portsmouth casino, and if Richmond votes Yes for their casino then I believe they'll have the premier casino in the state. Rivers casino being the 1st in the state is huge, especially now when 2-3 casino are starting in a temporary location. I think Rivers is betting on cashing in early, and often. Also I can only imagine rooms in the area will start to see more traffic in 2023 due to Rivers, so it's kind of an area win they aren't building the hotel now. I can imagine a courtyard or some smaller hotel chain may build in the area of the casino soon, it's alot of open land. Rivers will also be a concert venue.

Norfolk casino isn't moving fast and honestly whenever a project moves slow the more likely it will be changed, and usually changes comes at a negative for the overall project. I really wanted Norfolk to get a big name casino in the area like Caesar or MGM I believe those companies have the means to have built Norfolk casino quicker.  If Rivers becomes established as a good casino, Headwaters will have a hard time trying to catch up, I'm almost sure that's why all these companies want a temporary location to establish some footing before Rivers becomes the state ONLY fully operational casino. 

It takes less than two minutes to compare the plans and realize that the two are going after completely different clientele. 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

Ok let's put this thing into perspective, this is Pamunkey 1st casino, it went from a 700 million dollar investment to 300 million, the footprint is smaller,the tower is shorter. We're on the cusp of a recession, building cost are also higher. Pamunkey has been nearly dead silent since announcing the plan to start this spring. Summer is 2 weeks away. Danville casino who has the backing of a much larger company is already delayed....... And Pamunkey has yet to start. 

You guys speak as if its a done deal, by state law they could build an even smaller casino at 200 million dollar. I don't care what you all believe Pamunkey will bring, this thing still has no traction. And you believe it'll be better than Rivers ?? , a proven company How? I wouldn't hang my hat on a couple of renderings, or what's on paper. It's starting to look like Headwaters will change again. 

All the while Rivers is just moving along as planned, so we'll see. 

1 hour ago, BeagleAccountant said:

It takes less than two minutes to compare the plans and realize that the two are going after completely different clientele. 

That remains to be seen and you guys are getting way ahead of yourself for a project yet to even be started. Headwaters could still end up being just a regular casino. 

 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

18 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

There’s so much to unpack here, lol. I don’t even know where to begin. First of all, Louise Lucas is a problematic figure, to put it nicely. However, she did raise awareness on the casino issue over the past decade or so and deserves credit for Portsmouth’s casino.  As far as Norfolk goes, and I have said this from the beginning, the City definitely should have opened things up via an RFP much like Richmond did. I don’t really think that needs additional splainin’.

RE:  Norfolk versus Portsmouth— I have no doubt that Headwinds will be larger, more luxurious and better positioned to grab the lion’s share of regional gambling revenues than will Rivers. 

Lucas is responsible for all the casino in this state, not just the Portsmouth casino. How do you have no doubts about Headwaters??. They're already trying to put a temporary casino in Harbor Park, that a totally new wrench. It's those decision that you all should be more in tuned with. Why hasn't Pamunkey started building and how long of a temporary casino will they need? So until Headwaters builds and opens I'm sure Rivers will be far superior to it, and that's based in fact. 

. 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

20 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

IT better be better than theirs. Portsmouth has been in a long Brotherhood with Norfolk but as the central city and metro in the area we should be getting the somewhat better end of things if we want to make the area and city as a whole look better.

How so? This is the tribal mentality Hampton Roads have to let go of like now. Who care if Norfolk has the best in the area. You understand Rivers is already a win for Norfolk and the region. Norfolk hotels can and will say it's a casino 5 miles from Downtown. The casino adds an amenity this area doesn't have it's a huge positive for the hospitality industry in Norfolk. Especially considering Rivers will be a better  entertainment option than anything Norfolk has to offer now.  

Norfolk or any other city in HR shouldn't feel they deserve better than the next city. This area should only be one city and anything done to help the region should be championed by the region and not force into unnecessary competition and toxicity. That's why SITW left completely, no one area really deserves it because we aren't unified.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[baobabs727]

35 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Ok let's put this thing into perspective, this is Pamunkey 1st casino, it went from a 700 million dollar investment to 300 million, the footprint is smaller,the tower is shorter. We're on the cusp of a recession, building cost are also higher. Pamunkey has been nearly dead silent since announcing the plan to start this spring. Summer is 2 weeks away. Danville casino who has the backing of a much larger company is already delayed....... And Pamunkey has yet to start. 

You guys speak as if its a done deal, by state law they could build an even smaller casino at 200 million dollar. I don't care what you all believe Pamunkey will bring, this thing still has no traction. And you believe it'll be better than Rivers ?? , a proven company How? I wouldn't hang my hat on a couple of renderings, or what's on paper. It's starting to look like Headwaters will change again. 

All the while Rivers is just moving along as planned, so we'll see. 

That remains to be seen and you guys are getting way ahead of yourself for a project yet to even be started. Headwaters could still end up being just a regular casino. 

 

LOL. Pawmunkey investment is $500 million until otherwise notified and is backed by a  BILLIONAIRE named Yarborough from TN.  Now THAT's a "FACT," Jack.

[baobabs727]

34 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Lucas is responsible for all the casino in this state, not just the Portsmouth casino. How do you have no doubts about Headwaters??. They're already trying to put a temporary casino in Harbor Park, that a totally new wrench. It's those decision that you all should be more in tuned with. Why hasn't Pamunkey started building and how long of a temporary casino will they need? So until Headwaters builds and opens I'm sure Rivers will be far superior to it, and that's based in fact. 

. 

Oh geesh. Let's not lionize Louise. She's darn sure a hot mess.  Besides, if you're right and she's also responsible for the Headwaters Casino in Norfolk, well...then she's quite possibly dumber than dirt 'cause she just shot herself and her fair City right in the foot! 

As to temporary this and that, Norfolk's temporary casino is designed to give folks a little taste of the action until the main casino is open. Actually, there is talk of keeping the temporary casino open as an adjunct facility, even after Headwaters is fully open for business.

Edited May 12, 2022 by baobabs727

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

Just now, baobabs727 said:

Oh geesh. Let's not lionize Louise. She's darn sure a veritable hot mess.  Besides, if you're right and she's also responsible for the Headwaters Casino in Norfolk, well...then she's quite possibly dumber than dirt 'cause she just shot herself and her fair City right in the foot!  Norfolk's temporary casino is designed to give folks a little taste of the action until the main casino is open. Actually, there is talk of keeping the temporary casino open as a adjunct facility, even after Headwaters is fully open for business.

Well she has been pushing for a casinos for 22 yrs, she brought the players together to make it happen. Norfolk voted for a casino that is why they'll be building one, Lucas made that vote possible in the 1st place. Btw River's knew Headwaters was coming as well they seemed to not be swayed either, in fact they dropped the hotel from their plans. People are coming to gamble, not a resort in Norfolk , a tiny resort at that. A resort that will need the amenities of the area to be relevant. 

And hot mess how?? Because of Confederate Monuments thing?.... You suggesting they should have stood, she also beat all charges. So Lucas was on the right side of history my friend, Lucas also had a hand in Portsmouth Unity Festival, Lucas is the type of politician HR needs someone not afraid to take risk. Even if it means Norfolk get benefited too. 

I'm not buying the explanation for the temporary casino. Either they're opening a temporary casino because Rivers has such a headstart it could established itself as not only the region but the State's best casino for a couple years or they will delay this project for some time until the economy recovers. 

 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

27 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

LOL. Pawmunkey investment is $500 million until otherwise notified and is backed by a  BILLIONAIRE named Yarborough from TN.  Now THAT's a "FACT," Jack.

We'll see Pamunkey also had no plans to build anything in Norfolk until everything and everywhere else fell thru. Im also not to keen on only '1' billionaire backing it, so it would only take for him to back out to turn Headwaters into a tailspin. Facts are headwaters should have started by now and it's not. I'm not buying 500 million either consider all the other larger casinos are investing much less. Pamunkey dropping 500 million dollar on it's 1st casino seems a bit pipe dreamish. 

[baobabs727]

10 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Well she has been pushing for a casinos for 22 yrs, she brought the players together to make it happen. Norfolk voted for a casino that is why they'll be building one, Lucas made that vote possible in the 1st place. Btw River's knew Headwaters was coming as well they seemed to not be swayed either, in fact they dropped the hotel from their plans. People are coming to gamble, not a resort in Norfolk , a tiny resort at that. A resort that will need the amenities of the area to be relevant. 

And hot mess how?? Because of Confederate Monuments thing?.... You suggesting they should have stood, she also beat all charges. So Lucas was on the right side of history my friend, Lucas also had a hand in Portsmouth Unity Festival, Lucas is the type of politician HR needs someone not afraid to take risk. Even if it means Norfolk get benefited too. 

I'm not buying the explanation for the temporary casino. Either they're opening a temporary casino because Rivers has such a headstart it could established itself as not only the region but the State's best casino for a couple years or they will delay this project for some time until the economy recovers. 

 

That all sounds suspiciously like...wishful thinking to meee! :-0).  Is Louise your Auntie?  Did Mayor Alexander somehow ruin your relative's funeral? LOL. Just kidding. But actually...I am curious as to why you kinda, sorta seem to be rooting for Norfolk to fail....and for Portsmouth to crush her larger neighbor across the river? I can almost see you salivating at that very prospect! Such passion and verve on the topic!  And why so cynical re:  Pawmunkey/Yarborough and their motivation behind building out Harbor Park's temp casino? I'd like to know if you know something we don't. Go on! Do tell!   As for me, I just call balls and strikes. Norfolk's 500M trumps Portsmouth's 300M. Norfolk's hotel trumps Portsmouth's, er, lack of a hotel. Norfolk's location trumps Portsmouth's location, etc.,etc.  Personally, I hope they BOTH succeed!  But will they...both succeed?  IDK.  However, I doubt very much that Portsmouth's "headstart" as you call it will make much difference vis-a-vis their competition as you have outlined it...in the end. 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

19 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

That all sounds suspiciously like...wishful thinking to meee! :-0).  Is Louise your Auntie?  Did Mayor Alexander somehow ruin your relative's funeral? LOL. Just kidding. But actually...I am curious as to why you kinda, sorta seem to be rooting for Norfolk to fail....and for Portsmouth to crush her larger neighbor across the river? I can almost see you salivating at that very prospect! Such passion and verve on the topic!  And why so cynical re:  Pawmunkey/Yarborough and their motivation behind building out Harbor Park's temp casino? I'd like to know if you know something we don't. Go on! Do tell!   As for me, I just call balls and strikes. Norfolk's 500M trumps Portsmouth's 300M. Norfolk's hotel trumps Portsmouth's, er, lack of a hotel. Norfolk's location trumps Portsmouth's location, etc.,etc.  Personally, I hope they BOTH succeed!  But will they...both succeed?  IDK.  However, I doubt very much that Portsmouth's "headstart" as you call it will make much difference vis-a-vis their competition as you have outlined it...in the end. 

Norfolk deserves to fail it undercut Cordish and is the only casino without a national conglomerate to back it. Norfolk casino just seems like a fu*k you to Portsmouth and it rushed everything to one up a city in it's region. Alot of money is also going into shoring up the waterfront how much of the 500 million will be eaten by that alone. Considering that land has sat vacant for 20+yrs I'm sure it won't be cheap. I don't have any inside info other than what I see. And what I've seen is bothersome, had Rivers been this slow I would have the same energy. I've been on these type development forums for quite some time,anytime something is moving slow or not at all it's not a good sign. I can't recall any project being delayed and still living up to expectations and Headwaters is probably no exception. Honestly I'm only returning the energy you'll have for Rivers you all would hate for Rivers to be better because it in Portsmouth and that would sting your Norfolk ego the most. If I'm not mistaken Bristol also will have a temporary location in an effort to be the 1st in Virginia obviously these casinos need skin in the game before Rivers open. The only real casino in Virginia for at least a year or more will be Rivers.

In fact Norfolk was so ready to beat out Portsmouth they were going to sell the Indian Tribe land within the city. Land that the tribe would control completely that how greedy Norfolk looks to me and yes it pisses me off that the city operates like that. Like I said yesterday Norfolk could do alot more to be relevant

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

How so? This is the tribal mentality Hampton Roads have to let go of like now. Who care if Norfolk has the best in the area. You understand Rivers is already a win for Norfolk and the region. Norfolk hotels can and will say it's a casino 5 miles from Downtown. The casino adds an amenity this area doesn't have it's a huge positive for the hospitality industry in Norfolk. Especially considering Rivers will be a better  entertainment option than anything Norfolk has to offer now.  

Norfolk or any other city in HR shouldn't feel they deserve better than the next city. This area should only be one city and anything done to help the region should be championed by the region and not force into unnecessary competition and toxicity. That's why SITW left completely, no one area really deserves it because we aren't unified.

 

5 miles hits different when you have to travel through that tunnel. Rivers clientele will mostly come from Hampton/NN (from those close to MMBT), Suffolk, Chesapeake, and points south. Now if they had kept it on the waterfront, where ferry's could pass back and forth between the casinos, then it would be a far different story.