CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[tozmervo]

The kind of campaign the new red line plan will need 

 

[dubone]

On 3/1/2019 at 4:34 PM, kermit said:

More significantly (and less realistically) it seems there is an opportunity to interline the Gold and Silver lines from Hawthorne to Pecan. This would do three things. First passengers could transfer between lines at the Pecan station. Second, Gold Line vehicles could use the Silverline route to cross CSX and get into the center of PM without the Barnhardt detour. Finally, it makes it possible for some Silver Line vehicles to use the Gold Line route into uptown if there was a problem with the Silver line Route (there are all kinds of caveats to this such as platform length (single vehicle trains only)  and connecting the Gold Line route to the West Line at Gateway). But it would certainly be interesting if every other (or every third) Silver Line train was a train to the Square and it would have the side benefit of increasing street car frequency. 

Even on its own merit, the Gold line really should have already been getting to Pecan to go under Independence.  I even wrote a long memo to CATS to push for that with multiple points of reasoning, back when Silver Line was only ever hoped for as a BRT line.   But now even more so that a corridor will be built that is compatible and gives transfer and distribution possibilities.  The Gold Line has always been to help distribute to all the institutional employers along Elizabeth/Trade/Beatties Ford, so the same would clearly go if they could be going in the right direction and transfer along the way. . 

The Hawthorne bridge was rebuilt for the benefit of the express lanes underneath under the CATS budget because they had a way to justify it in that project.   Sunk costs are planning fallacies.  But also, think of the criticism if redundant corridors were built near each other but no transfer option, people will be complaining loudly about that for decades. 

[southslider]

^Unfortunately, CATS blew the opportunity to rebuild Hawthorne bridge with Silver Line in mind. There isn't room underneath. The tracks cannot turn quickly. And going overhead would be endlessly challenged by Elizabeth as impacting their historic neighborhood.

Edited March 5, 2019 by southslider

[ChessieCat]

On 2/28/2019 at 3:13 PM, CLT2014 said:

The more I look at it, it looks like they are going to keep it further from the creek by tearing down the businesses along Bryant Street:

So funny you mentioned Bryant Street.  Maybe CATS can re-use the Piedmont & Northern abandoned tracks that STILL exist betwen the buildings in this neighborhood!!! 

South Summit Ave just north of Bryant St

https://goo.gl/maps/Kk3mGYkDQ8k

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ChessieCat

[DMann]

So, here is a crazy thought about the Silver Line.  Lets run it into town, and instead of skirting 11th Street and going down Graham, lets stack it on top of the Blue Line.  Biggest obstacle would be the convention center, but I would imaging that could be managed.  Once we get to Morehead, we turn and run down Morehead Street up to Wilkinson and they continue to the Airport and Gastonia.  Seems to me that multiple lines are stacked at Five Points in Atlanta.  I can see a connecting stop at Trade Street and The Westin in the Uptown area.  

[archiham04]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:50 AM, southslider said:

^Unfortunately, CATS blew the opportunity to rebuild Hawthorne bridge with Silver Line in mind. There isn't room underneath. The tracks cannot turn quickly. And going overhead would be endlessly challenged by Elizabeth as impacting their historic neighborhood.

So you are telling me that the Hawthorne Bridge rebuild rebuild rebuild will not accommodate a light rail Line and will have to be REm**(&rfU(kING rebuilt to accomodate the Silver LINE.... ?!?!?!  My Sh!t is lost.

[southslider]

6 hours ago, archiham04 said:

So you are telling me that the Hawthorne Bridge rebuild rebuild rebuild will not accommodate a light rail Line and will have to be REm**(&rfU(kING rebuilt to accomodate the Silver LINE.... ?!?!?!  My Sh!t is lost.

Yep. Thanks, Lewis.

[orulz]

So, here is a crazy thought about the Silver Line.  Lets run it into town, and instead of skirting 11th Street and going down Graham, lets stack it on top of the Blue Line.  Biggest obstacle would be the convention center, but I would imaging that could be managed.  Once we get to Morehead, we turn and run down Morehead Street up to Wilkinson and they continue to the Airport and Gastonia.  Seems to me that multiple lines are stacked at Five Points in Atlanta.  I can see a connecting stop at Trade Street and The Westin in the Uptown area.  

Before stacking it on top of the Blue Line, just elevate or trench the blue line from Trade to 11th and then share the tracks. The only reason the silver line can't share the blue line ROW is that the grade crossings would be closed too much. Elevating or trenching the blue line both removes the existing grade crossings and allows the uptown route to be shared, solving two problems at once. Phasing for a trench might be tricky but the end result would be great.

[southslider]

11 hours ago, orulz said:

The only reason the silver line can't share the blue line ROW is that the grade crossings would be closed too much.

How often is too much?  As often as signals change for intersecting streets either side of the tracks? As often as people cross the same streets in crosswalks immediately adjacent to the Blue Line?

The only reason for expensive stacking atop Blue Line, or tunneling under Gold Line for that matter, is our obsession with moving cars as quickly as possible through places that should be focused more on people.

The cheapest way to reach Uptown's core with transit is to give more of that limited space at grade to transit.

[orulz]

25 minutes ago, southslider said:

How often is too much?  As often as signals change for intersecting streets either side of the tracks? As often as people cross the same streets in crosswalks immediately adjacent to the Blue Line?

The only reason for expensive stacking atop Blue Line, or tunneling under Gold Line for that matter, is our obsession with moving cars as quickly as possible through places that should be focused more on people.

The cheapest way to reach Uptown's core with transit is to give more of that limited space at grade to transit.

I don't know. Ask @tozmervo who said the below:

On 2/27/2019 at 11:56 AM, tozmervo said:

But the problem with those headways is that you've then crippled Uptown's road infrastructure. MLK, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th street crossings would effectively be impassable because the gates would be down almost continuously. 

I do think that maybe MLK west of the tracks could be a good corridor (as a transit mall) for the West Line.

 

[Scribe]

On 3/8/2019 at 4:46 PM, archiham04 said:

So you are telling me that the Hawthorne Bridge rebuild rebuild rebuild will not accommodate a light rail Line and will have to be REm**(&rfU(kING rebuilt to accomodate the Silver LINE.... ?!?!?!  My Sh!t is lost.

Now you are reaching my level of displeasure with CATS management.

[southslider]

Traffic signals operate on 30 to 120 second cycles, though longer cycles for bigger intersections with more phases.  Once fully upgraded to three-car stations, Blue Line trains cross a street every 300 seconds.  Overlapping Silver Line would result in trains every 150 seconds between the two lines in both directions. Most Uptown signals are 90 second or less cycles, with smaller intersections,  more pedestrians,  and one-way streets. To say running more trains on existing tracks in Uptown would cripple traffic is very much an exaggeration. 

[tozmervo]

18 minutes ago, southslider said:

Traffic signals operate on 30 to 120 second cycles, though longer cycles for bigger intersections with more phases.  Once fully upgraded to three-car stations, Blue Line trains cross a street every 300 seconds.  Overlapping Silver Line would result in trains every 150 seconds between the two lines in both directions. Most Uptown signals are 90 second or less cycles, with smaller intersections,  more pedestrians,  and one-way streets. To say running more trains on existing tracks in Uptown would cripple traffic is very much an exaggeration. 

I don't follow the numbers. Are you saying the crossing gates are down for an average of 90 seconds?

[southslider]

2 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I don't follow the numbers. Are you saying the crossing gates are down for an average of 90 seconds?

Trains hold "red" for a street less frequently than a signal does for an intersection.  Cars on 6th St stop more frequently for College St than for LYNX, and that remains the case, even when double the number of trains.

[tozmervo]

Let's say the blue line and silver line each have 5 minute headways. As you said, that means a train every 150 seconds, but that's only in one direction. When you add the other direction, that is only true if the trains are perfectly synchronized for that specific crossing. You will have another crossing where trains are coming through every 75 seconds in alternating directions. I don't know how long gates stay down, but in uptown I'd guess it's pretty close to 60 seconds. That means a given intersection could be limited to four brief 15-second windows of being opened to vehicles, bikes, scooters, and pedestrians. When you have train operators being cautious around uptown crossings already that is going to, as I said, cripple east-west connectivity.

[Desert Power]

3 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Let's say the blue line and silver line each have 5 minute headways. As you said, that means a train every 150 seconds, but that's only in one direction. When you add the other direction, that is only true if the trains are perfectly synchronized for that specific crossing. You will have another crossing where trains are coming through every 75 seconds in alternating directions. I don't know how long gates stay down, but in uptown I'd guess it's pretty close to 60 seconds. That means a given intersection could be limited to four brief 15-second windows of being opened to vehicles, bikes, scooters, and pedestrians. When you have train operators being cautious around uptown crossings already that is going to, as I said, cripple east-west connectivity.

This is a key point.  The gates are down much longer than they *should* be 

[videtur quam contuor]

There is a reason why 2d, 3d, and 4th are grade separated now and were not before automobile traffic. 

[thenewkage95]

On 3/8/2019 at 11:46 AM, archiham04 said:

So you are telling me that the Hawthorne Bridge rebuild rebuild rebuild will not accommodate a light rail Line and will have to be REm**(&rfU(kING rebuilt to accomodate the Silver LINE.... ?!?!?!  My Sh!t is lost.

Speaking of the Hawthorne bridge, does anyone know why construction is dragging on so slowly? I think we’re pushing a year now and I feel like I can count on my fingers the number of days I’ve actually seen them working on it? They’ve got a ton of building materials in the center lanes, so...

[Matthew.Brendan]

Well if Sugar Creek bridge is any indication... we’re 4+ years into that one. 

[kermit]

50 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

Speaking of the Hawthorne bridge, does anyone know why construction is dragging on so slowly? I think we’re pushing a year now and I feel like I can count on my fingers the number of days I’ve actually seen them working on it? They’ve got a ton of building materials in the center lanes, so...

The contractor who had the design-build contract effed up the design work -- they installed girders that were incorrectly sized. Its all on the contractor to fix but it looks like it will cause delays to streetcar opening. Its discussed in a bit more detail in the Streetcar thread.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Girders meaning the width of the span?

[southslider]

15 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Let's say the blue line and silver line each have 5 minute headways.

No, each line is planned for 10-mnute headway in each direction, so effective 2.5-minute trains on two lines in both directions. That's a train every 150 seconds, as I said. But let's say it went to 5-minute headways on the two lines in both directions.  That's still only a train every 75 seconds, which is still less often than a motorist sees a red light at most intersections inside Uptown, including those either side of the LYNX line, namely College and Brevard Streets.   The carmageddon argument is bogus.

Edited March 11, 2019 by southslider

[kermit]

20 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Girders meaning the width of the span?

I think the problem is with the steel that is already up but I am not an engineer and I my only source of info is the Observer so...

[archiham04]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

I think the problem is with the steel that is already up but I am not an engineer and I my only source of info is the Observer so...

... but yes, the steel that spans the width is all wrong and to be ripped out.

So on the subject of why they dragging their feet on fixing....  They are going to have to eat a significant amount of cost to replace.  Because of that I suspect they are going to wait until the end of the project to even start the repair.  That way if there are other issues and stuff hits the fan they can walk away and let their bonding company deal with the carnage.

[kermit]

Mary Newsome has a nice write up  on the center city routing debate.

https://nakedcityblog.blogspot.com/2019/03/is-economic-development-tail-wagging.html

She spends lots of time discussing access vs. development. If CATS wants to build to maximize development potential (which they say they do) then I think they need to rely heavily on value capture as a means of paying for the line. If value capture does not play a significant role then they should build for access.

My current opinion (it changes daily) is CATS should have chosen the 6th street surface route through down. They could have closed the street to cars and installed signal prioritization. Once they decided they wanted a tunnel instead they could route all rail traffic along either 6th or Trade and then dig a cut and cover tunnel on the other route.

Edited March 12, 2019 by kermit