The River District

[NDL.]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:51 AM, Nathan2 said:

It's not that people don't like town centers, it's that people don't like when developers call it a mixed-use pedestrian town center and then they make 60% of the project surface parking lots and sprawling developments that require a car. The River District is a terrible misuse of some of the last bit of undeveloped land in Charlotte. Instead of giving this land a thought-out decent design they have gone the easy and cheap route. Suburban neighborhoods can be walkable and car-lite, but this is not that, this is pure car-oriented sprawl packaged to look like a walkable community. 

I am glad that abundant parking was incorporated, only because it makes it convenient for me to drive to my destination, park, and walk around to varies points of interest throughout the day.  A good example of this would be downtown Greenville, which has abundant parking options, which allow me to park, and walk/enjoy an area for the course of several hours.

Conversely, when parking is a hassle, it makes me want to avoid an area altogether.

What's seemingly egregious, however, is the lack of planning behind/around a Silver Line leg:  this development could've had world class uniqueness and function, but it doesn't present itself that way.

A good example of excellent design and execution can be found at the Bridgeway development in Mauldin SC:  it has very unique design elements/characteristics, and has great pedestrian appeal.  Instead, the River District comes across as a rebranded Ballantyne, which I find unacceptable, since Ballantyne was built out before the light rail, nor does Ballantyne have river access.

Could my perceptions be mistaken?  Of course, yet marketing hasn't, in my view, done a great job at developing interest around this project.

Edited August 14, 2023 by NDL.

[tito_m9]

On 7/18/2023 at 12:02 PM, CLT2014 said:

Here is the park on the lake from their latest video as well. Some parking lots under the power lines, walking paths, chopped trees, and buildings. 

"Riverfront Park-ing Lot" - Reminds me of how Atlanta built some of their parks along the Chattahoochee and now they have signs in all the parks saying "warning! high theft area"

[RANYC]

At this point you all have seen that Beemok has decided to keep the western and southern open in Mason, Ohio, a tennis tournament I hadn’t even heard of until Charlotte was in contention to host it.  I’m actually happy for greater Cincinnati to keep something that’s been such a long-held part of community tradition there, and I’m also happy for the hundred or so acres of additional River District trees that were to be felled for surface parking.  We are experiencing more growth than we seem to be able to handle and don’t have to chase after every growth objective that gives us a look.  Having said that, I do think it was a worthy objective to pursue.  Hospitality Dollars are now freed up for some billionaire’s proposal to bring MLB to Charlotte.

Edited October 10, 2023 by RANYC

[J-Rob]

2 minutes ago, RANYC said:

At this point you all have seen that Beemok has decided to keep the western and southern open in Mason, Ohio, a tennis tournament I hadn’t even heard of until Charlotte was in contention to host it.  I’m actually happy for greater Cincinnati to keep something that’s been such a long-held part of community tradition there, and I’m also happy for the hundred or so acres of trees that were to be felled for surface parking.  We are experiencing more growth than we seem to be able to handle and don’t have to chase after every growth objective that gives us a look.  Having said that, I do think it was a worthy objective to pursue.

At least now Charlotte has a prime spot to set aside for an MLB stadium, plus a partial blueprint for funding, lol.

[NDL.]

Now we're in December.

2023.

Any updates?

I never see any meaningful changes when I drive over there, although I haven't gone in quite awhile.

[Norm2]

44 minutes ago, NDL. said:

Now we're in December.

2023.

Any updates?

I never see any meaningful changes when I drive over there, although I haven't gone in quite awhile.

They have an Instagram page where you can check up on some of their progress. they've mainly been doing ground work like building out roads, laying swear and water pipes, etc. Once all of that is done, they will start building up

[NDL.]

Thank you; I will give their page a look.

 

[KJHburg]

West Blvd extension to the River District off I-485 and I tried to get back to Dixie River Road went down a dead-end street.  Down this road was abandoned houses broken into and one mobile home spray painted "Keep Out s l u t Dungeon"  I quickly made a 3-point turn and got the hell out of that area.    Some serious crime down that road for sure.    So I will have to check out the River District some other day.  

Edited March 23 by KJHburg

[Norm2]

A s l u t dungeon!? Sounds like it might have been a good time. LOL 

[KJHburg]

1 minute ago, Norm2 said:

A s l u t dungeon!? Sounds like it might have been a good time. LOL 

I did not hang around to find out I raced out of that area.  

[RANYC]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:51 PM, KJHburg said:

West Blvd extension to the River District off I-485 and I tried to get back to Dixie River Road went down a dead-end street.  Down this road was abandoned houses broken into and one mobile home spray painted "Keep Out s l u t Dungeon"  I quickly made a 3-point turn and got the hell out of that area.    Some serious crime down that road for sure.    So I will have to check out the River District some other day.  

Now imagine that exploration on foot or on bike?  You bolted out of fear and you were in the carapace of your 1-2 ton motorized machine.  I’m convinced our car obsession and desire to be tucked away in nature comes from our deep-seated insecurity and suspicion of our fellow countrymen.  

At any rate, thanks for the photos of River District’s progress.  Many trees felled for this development, but alas, I think I’d rather see this area developed as part of a master plan than chaotically and sporadically which would have resulted in more tree loss and probably more car-oriented strip mall sprawl.

Edited March 25 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

here is the master plan for the River District next time I go over there I will get some shots of Westrow the first development node.  You can see West Blvd extension where I was the other day and I was south of that a bit when I ran down a dead-end road.  

Plan from their website. 

 

[AltNative]

where is the hierarchy to this plan? Looks like a garbled mess 

[Nathan2]

23 hours ago, RANYC said:

Now imagine that exploration on foot or on bike?  You bolted out of fear and you were in the carapace of your 1-2 ton motorized machine.  I’m convinced our car obsession and desire to be tucked away in nature comes from our deep-seated insecurity and suspicion of our fellow countrymen.  

At any rate, thanks for the photos of River District’s progress.  Many trees felled for this development, but alas, I think I’d rather see this area developed as part of a master plan than chaotically and sporadically which would have resulted in more tree loss and probably more car-oriented strip mall sprawl.

The river district is a car-oriented strip mall sprawl, they just put a little lipstick on it. Honestly think the river district is an ecological disaster. The last bit of forested land by the river should've been saved. This whole development will inflate VMT and clog roads. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Literally a blank slate and what do we get but Ballantyne 2.0

[J-Rob]

I am perplexed by most of the push back on the River District. The area is 20 minutes from Uptown, with no existing infrastructure, no public transportation, and under the shadows of major airport. Of course it will be car-oriented.

Compared to Ballantyne, which was mostly just office parks and sprawling parking lots initially, this seems very well planned. The River District is dense mixed use, with a heavy emphasis on residential (which is needed), built around town square, and I think will have connecting trails. The office component is mostly concentrated next to the interstate.

I understand regretting the canopy loss, but it is private property and the developers are working to save as much canopy as possible. I have trouble envisioning a project here that is more urban and less car-oriented.

 

Edited March 26 by J-Rob

[Windsurfer]

3 hours ago, J-Rob said:

I am perplexed by most of the push back on the River District. The area is 20 minutes from Uptown, with no existing infrastructure, no public transportation, and under the shadows of major airport. Of course it will be car-oriented.

Compared to Ballantyne, which was mostly just office parks and sprawling parking lots initially, this seems very well planned. The River District is dense mixed use, with a heavy emphasis on residential (which is needed), built around town square, and I think will have connecting trails. The office component is mostly concentrated next to the interstate.

I understand regretting the canopy loss, but it is private property and the developers are working to save as much canopy as possible. I have trouble envisioning a project here that is more urban and less car-oriented.

 

Yes, it's 20 minutes from downtown....there's two ways to look at that.  

 It just seems that in our rush to become urban we're not sparing any MAJOR open space.  Again, I'm bringing up London, but within walking distance of where we lived (Kingston Upon Thames) we had two parks that are 1,100 acres and over 2500 acres respectively.  This doesn't include the actual greenway along the river itself.   Were it not for these major parks, this part of London would be unbearable.

A smattering of green area here and there is pitiful.  

[InSouthPark]

^^ Richmond park was established in the 1600's by British royalty and given to the people by King Edward VII.  The closest thing we have to a king giving away land for the public use is Anne Springs-Close who inherited a fortune and loved the outdoors enough to put the land aside in a conservation easement. I assume the private property owners of the River District were not generationally wealthy or royalty, nor in position to gift this land to the city/county. 

At least the developers have set aside 500+ of the 1400acres as undeveloped.  40% undeveloped land is way more than most developers are doing right now. 

 

 

 

[tozmervo]

22 hours ago, J-Rob said:

I am perplexed by most of the push back on the River District. The area is 20 minutes from Uptown, with no existing infrastructure, no public transportation, and under the shadows of major airport. Of course it will be car-oriented.

Compared to Ballantyne, which was mostly just office parks and sprawling parking lots initially, this seems very well planned. The River District is dense mixed use, with a heavy emphasis on residential (which is needed), built around town square, and I think will have connecting trails. The office component is mostly concentrated next to the interstate.

I understand regretting the canopy loss, but it is private property and the developers are working to save as much canopy as possible. I have trouble envisioning a project here that is more urban and less car-oriented.

Based on the site plan posted above, hard disagree about this being "well planned." Painfully few roads connecting each of the areas, only two roads connecting the entire area in and out, culdesacs where they aren't necessary, isolated school campus (f* you if you wanted a walkable school)

This is just the same suburban mistakes regurgitated with a glossy sheen. Nothing presented has convinced me otherwise. 

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

^^ Richmond park was established in the 1600's by British royalty and given to the people by King Edward VII.  The closest thing we have to a king giving away land for the public use is Anne Springs-Close who inherited a fortune and loved the outdoors enough to put the land aside in a conservation easement. I assume the private property owners of the River District were not generationally wealthy or royalty, nor in position to gift this land to the city/county. 

At least the developers have set aside 500+ of the 1400acres as undeveloped.  40% undeveloped land is way more than most developers are doing right now. 

 

 

 

I've been reading through their site and can't find this "500" acres figure. Granted, there'll be nice trails wending their way along the riverbank  but is that 500 figure one solid area or just pieces of land ?

[InSouthPark]

9 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

I've been reading through their site and can't find this "500" acres figure. Granted, there'll be nice trails wending their way along the riverbank  but is that 500 figure one solid area or just pieces of land ?

On the masterplan page. I have a very large monitor so you might have to hit the --> button.  It looks like the "Riverpoint" and "Preserve West" along with the 128ac city owned parcel in between will be one big area for a park and river walk.   

 

[InSouthPark]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

 (f* you if you wanted a walkable school)

It's 4000'-ish feet from the "CMS" on the map to the middle of the "Westrow town center" (measured on Polaris following the depicted paths). That would mean about 6 of the neighborhoods will be less than a mile walk to the school.  Certainly walkable for middle school / high school students or elementary student with a parent. 

But it doesn't matter...I don't care how walkable your school is on a map. People in charlotte don't walk to school.  I have lived next to Beverley Woods elementary and Carmel Middle...there are less than a dozen students that walk from BWE semi-regularly and even less to Carmel.  Kids at South Meck might walk to McDonalds at lunch, but they aren't walking 1/4m across the street to Cameron Wood to go home. If they have access to a ride, they will take it. Today's parents don't even let their kid ride the bus...you think they are going to walk (gasp) to school?

If the school is a 20min walk from most of the doors, that isn't an F U to anyone.  It's the helicopter parents are the ones giving the F U.  They would be lined up two hours early for pickup if the school was 40' away or 4miles away.  When my kid went to Carmel Middle, they rode the bus everyday and got home BEFORE our next door neighbor that drove to pick up their kid.  That's just wild to me. 

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

It's 4000'-ish feet from the "CMS" on the map to the middle of the "Westrow town center" (measured on Polaris following the depicted paths). That would mean about 6 of the neighborhoods will be less than a mile walk to the school.  Certainly walkable for middle school / high school students or elementary student with a parent. 

But it doesn't matter...I don't care how walkable your school is on a map. People in charlotte don't walk to school.  I have lived next to Beverley Woods elementary and Carmel Middle...there are less than a dozen students that walk from BWE semi-regularly and even less to Carmel.  Kids at South Meck might walk to McDonalds at lunch, but they aren't walking 1/4m across the street to Cameron Wood to go home. If they have access to a ride, they will take it. Today's parents don't even let their kid ride the bus...you think they are going to walk (gasp) to school?

If the school is a 20min walk from most of the doors, that isn't an F U to anyone.  It's the helicopter parents are the ones giving the F U.  They would be lined up two hours early for pickup if the school was 40' away or 4miles away.  When my kid went to Carmel Middle, they rode the bus everyday and got home BEFORE our next door neighbor that drove to pick up their kid.  That's just wild to me. 

You're also setting a very low bar for walkability. I mean I sure as hell wouldn't want to walk on a narrow sidewalk jammed up against Sharon Road. 

Cornelius Elementary has a ton of walkers. It's safely accessible from multiple directions on pleasant, low-speed neighborhood roads. This isn't rocket science, we're just so used to car-oriented design it's hard to see just how bad it is. That River District school could instantly be improved by just eliminating that hundreds-of-feet long driveway that adds meaningful time for walking. 

[Windsurfer]

9 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

It's 4000'-ish feet from the "CMS" on the map to the middle of the "Westrow town center" (measured on Polaris following the depicted paths). That would mean about 6 of the neighborhoods will be less than a mile walk to the school.  Certainly walkable for middle school / high school students or elementary student with a parent. 

But it doesn't matter...I don't care how walkable your school is on a map. People in charlotte don't walk to school.  I have lived next to Beverley Woods elementary and Carmel Middle...there are less than a dozen students that walk from BWE semi-regularly and even less to Carmel.  Kids at South Meck might walk to McDonalds at lunch, but they aren't walking 1/4m across the street to Cameron Wood to go home. If they have access to a ride, they will take it. Today's parents don't even let their kid ride the bus...you think they are going to walk (gasp) to school?

If the school is a 20min walk from most of the doors, that isn't an F U to anyone.  It's the helicopter parents are the ones giving the F U.  They would be lined up two hours early for pickup if the school was 40' away or 4miles away.  When my kid went to Carmel Middle, they rode the bus everyday and got home BEFORE our next door neighbor that drove to pick up their kid.  That's just wild to me. 

Thanks for the reference to "550 acres".  That's awesome!

My family moved to Beverly Woods East in 1969.  The idea was for me to walk to school, which I did for one year until they started bussing. Then it was the 45 minute ride to First Ward Elementary.  There used to be a ton of kids my age who used a trail that ran from the end of the cul de sac at Rebel Dr.  Do you happen to remember if that trail is still there?  Lots of fond memories. Also went to Carmel "Jr. High".

[J-Rob]

20 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Based on the site plan posted above, hard disagree about this being "well planned." Painfully few roads connecting each of the areas, only two roads connecting the entire area in and out, culdesacs where they aren't necessary, isolated school campus (f* you if you wanted a walkable school)

This is just the same suburban mistakes regurgitated with a glossy sheen. Nothing presented has convinced me otherwise. 

Maybe I am just being naive, but it seems like there are competing push-backs here. Some think the development is too suburban and some people think it is an ecological disaster. My naivety is giving the developer the benefit of the doubt their plan addresses these competing priorities with balance. Saving 550 acres in the manner they did inherently leads to fewer connecting roads. They were also working around the topography near the river and several parcels they don't control. Given that, developing a town center with residential to the west (near the river) and office to east (near the interstate) seems pretty strategic to me, and also allows for some level of walkability.

Are there better examples of master-planned communities that both create an urban, car-free environment, while also preserving 500 acres?