The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

What is the successful path for Nashville to vote on a mass transit plan next year?

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2023/12/06/nashville-transit-high-2024-voter-turnout-could-help-pass-goal/71759242007/

[markhollin]

The Federal Railroad Administration has granted the state of Tennessee $500,000 to join the Corridor ID program to develop a passenger rail from Memphis to Atlanta, according to an announcement from Rep. Steve Cohen's office. The proposed line would connect Memphis, Nashville, Chattanooga and Atlanta, with additional stops along the way.

It's the first step toward making a long-sought rail line between Tennessee's biggest cities a reality. The Corridor ID program — created by the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act and run by the U.S. Department of Transportation — was designed to create more intercity rail nationwide.

The grant will allow a study to be undertaken to understand the scope, schedule and cost estimate of a potential rail line. The study would include stops, frequencies, financial plans and more. The feds will foot the entire bill of the first step.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/12/06/memphis-nashville-atlanta-passenger-rail-federal.html
 

[Luvemtall]

It would be great if they would also somehow incorporate the required amount to make the WeGo Star a real commuter line that would connect with the above mentioned route, at a station in downtown. Preferably within a city transit hub that has multiple sources for transportation. 

[andywildman]

Murfreesboro to Bellevue via the Gulch, run hourly 5am-10pm, with every half hour during rush hours. (spacing out stops every 5-10 miles, with Metro upzoning the area around each stop to look like Belle Meade Plaza or Green Hills.

When this unlocks massive traffic improvement in Rutherford County, Williamson & Sumner Counties will jump on board to fund a Spring Hill-to-Gallatin 2nd line.

 

[Bos2Nash]

Great news! While just a study, at least it is a rail study for a statewide rail. The interstates will be the logical corridor thoughts, but it should definitely deviate to provide proper connections.

Initial thoughts on stops between Memphis and Nashville...

• Memphis
• Ford Blue Oval
• Jackson
• Huntingdon
• Waverly
• Dickson
• Bellevue
• Downtown Nashville

Initial thoughts on stops between Nashville and Chattanooga

• Downtown Nashville
• BNA (maybe)
• Antioch (Global Mall?)
• Murfreesboro
• Manchester/Arnold AFB
• Sewanee
• Chattanooga

I am not familiar enough with the spaces between Chatt and Atlanta, so someone else could take a swing at that leg.

[NissanvilleTitans]

• Kimball (Just because that whole region around Nickajack Lake (Kimball, South Pittsburgh, Jasper, New Hope, and Haletown) is beautiful and deserves to be discovered and this could help promote growth in the gorgeous region)

• Chattanooga

• East Ridge

• Ringgold

• Dalton

• Calhoun

• Cartersville

• Kennesaw

• Marietta

• Atlanta 

[MidTenn1]

2 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

Great news! While just a study, at least it is a rail study for a statewide rail. The interstates will be the logical corridor thoughts, but it should definitely deviate to provide proper connections.

Initial thoughts on stops between Memphis and Nashville...

• Memphis
• Ford Blue Oval
• Jackson
• Huntingdon
• Waverly
• Dickson
• Bellevue
• Downtown Nashville

Initial thoughts on stops between Nashville and Chattanooga

• Downtown Nashville
• BNA (maybe)
• Antioch (Global Mall?)
• Murfreesboro
• Manchester/Arnold AFB
• Sewanee
• Chattanooga

I am not familiar enough with the spaces between Chatt and Atlanta, so someone else could take a swing at that leg.

I would substitute Kingston Springs/Pegram for Bellevue. I don't know anything about the traffic generation numbers for such a facility, but I don't see any good, convenient location for a station in Bellevue. The tracks run through predominantly residential areas in Bellevue. There is a very nice stretch of tracks with a siding that runs adjacent to Highway 70 in Pegram the seemingly could be used for a station.  A portion of the very large and very nice park could be used for the station. Parking would have to be on the US 70 side of the tracks for easier access.

Kingston Springs and Pegram have nearly 5,000 population combined, and I have no doubt the potential passengers from Bellevue would make the short drive to Pegram without a fuss.

[markhollin]

How the potential Memphis to Nashville to Atlanta passenger route may come to be:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/business/development/2023/12/07/how-500k-will-apply-to-memphis-to-nashville-passenger-train/71838053007/
 

[bnacincy]

On 12/6/2023 at 7:12 PM, MidTenn1 said:

I would substitute Kingston Springs/Pegram for Bellevue. I don't know anything about the traffic generation numbers for such a facility, but I don't see any good, convenient location for a station in Bellevue. The tracks run through predominantly residential areas in Bellevue. There is a very nice stretch of tracks with a siding that runs adjacent to Highway 70 in Pegram the seemingly could be used for a station.  A portion of the very large and very nice park could be used for the station. Parking would have to be on the US 70 side of the tracks for easier access.

Kingston Springs and Pegram have nearly 5,000 population combined, and I have no doubt the potential passengers from Bellevue would make the short drive to Pegram without a fuss.

There is some space at the junction of Bellevue Rd and Old Harding Rd in Bellevue where you could put a small station-the ideal situation would be to relocate the small strip center across Old Harding and put a station there.

Or better yet find a way to incorporate the strip center into the station-best of both worlds.

Edited December 8, 2023 by bnacincy

[MidTenn1]

It looks like from Mark's maps, that the Nashville to Chattanooga line will follow the current CSX line starting at Cowan, TN. where it goes through a low point in the Cumberland Plateau where the peak elevation is about 1,350' as compared to 1,900' just north at Monteagle. However, the tracks go under the 1,350' high point ridge through a 2,000' long tunnel with a track elevation of about 1,100'. Cowan is roughly a thousand feet elevation so the grade up the plateau is not too steep. That's if CSX will cooperate.

[markhollin]

North Nashville WeGo Transit Hub update.

Looking west from Clarksville Pike, just west of 25th Ave. North:

Looking east from Clarksville Pike , just east of 26th Ave. North:

Looking west from 26th Ave. North, 1/3 block south of Clarksville Pike:

[Auntie Yock]

10 hours ago, markhollin said:

North Nashville WeGo Transit Hub update.

Looking west from Clarksville Pike, just west of 25th Ave. North:

 

Oprah's constructing a WeGo Transit Hub?

[markhollin]

Monroe St. on south side of Neuhoff Plant and Adams St. on east side of Neuhoff Plant are now open:

[trillhaslam]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:21 PM, bnacincy said:

There is some space at the junction of Bellevue Rd and Old Harding Rd in Bellevue where you could put a small station-the ideal situation would be to relocate the small strip center across Old Harding and put a station there.

Or better yet find a way to incorporate the strip center into the station-best of both worlds.

Agreed. That would likely be the best Bellevue location. Alternatively, there's plenty of open space northwest where the rail crosses Sawyer Brown Rd. I think it would be a blunder to place a station in Pegram or Kingston Springs at the expense of one in Bellevue; it would be an exponential difference in ridership.

[andywildman]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:30 PM, MidTenn1 said:

It looks like from Mark's maps, that the Nashville to Chattanooga line will follow the current CSX line starting at Cowan, TN. where it goes through a low point in the Cumberland Plateau where the peak elevation is about 1,350' as compared to 1,900' just north at Monteagle. However, the tracks go under the 1,350' high point ridge through a 2,000' long tunnel with a track elevation of about 1,100'. Cowan is roughly a thousand feet elevation so the grade up the plateau is not too steep. That's if CSX will cooperate.

Amtrak routes almost always run on existing freight railway routes (outside of the northeast corridor); they're required to share with Amtrak. The two studied routes (Atlanta to Nashville and Memphis to Nashville) would run most of their routes along CSX rails.

[bnacincy]

If CSX is required to share the rail with Amtrak in some places perhaps there should be a law enacted to require CSX and other freight carriers to share the rail with commuter trains.

I think a case could be made that one incoming and one outgoing train a day would not unreasonably impair CSX's ability to operate its business-particularly if sidings were built at the commuter stations where trains could load and unload without hindering any traffic on the mainline.

It certainly would begin to address a lot of traffic issues in Nashville.

[markhollin]

6 hours ago, bnacincy said:

If CSX is required to share the rail with Amtrak in some places perhaps there should be a law enacted to require CSX and other freight carriers to share the rail with commuter trains.

I think a case could be made that one incoming and one outgoing train a day would not unreasonably impair CSX's ability to operate its business-particularly if sidings were built at the commuter stations where trains could load and unload without hindering any traffic on the mainline.

It certainly would begin to address a lot of traffic issues in Nashville.

Unfortunately, the laws protecting CSX are grandfathered into state law from all the way back in the 1800's, and they will NEVER give them up.

[Luvemtall]

Certain laws and even Constitutional amendments that were written centuries ago, should be respectfully considered for revision. There no way that the lawmakers and common folk , could have perceived or understood what the future would bring. They never imagined or intended that what they wrote would ever be more then what they understood as normal at the time of writing it into law. Today’s world is vastly more complicated and complex than even imagined just 50 years ago, and in order for us to prepare our world for the future, we must be able to change the way that our society and laws work and govern. I’m sorry but a musket from 1776 isn’t the same as a modern assault weapon, and land rights and  governess for railroads are not feasible for today’s society. 

[Bos2Nash]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:21 PM, bnacincy said:

There is some space at the junction of Bellevue Rd and Old Harding Rd in Bellevue where you could put a small station-the ideal situation would be to relocate the small strip center across Old Harding and put a station there.

Or better yet find a way to incorporate the strip center into the station-best of both worlds.

On 12/8/2023 at 10:30 PM, MidTenn1 said:

It looks like from Mark's maps, that the Nashville to Chattanooga line will follow the current CSX line starting at Cowan, TN. where it goes through a low point in the Cumberland Plateau where the peak elevation is about 1,350' as compared to 1,900' just north at Monteagle. However, the tracks go under the 1,350' high point ridge through a 2,000' long tunnel with a track elevation of about 1,100'. Cowan is roughly a thousand feet elevation so the grade up the plateau is not too steep. That's if CSX will cooperate.

I would think anything in Bellevue should be integrated in with a Commercial/Mixed-Use hub. The below snip is similar to what I see a Bellevue build-up/build-out would be with integrating just about all the uses along with the train station.

 

13 hours ago, andywildman said:

Amtrak routes almost always run on existing freight railway routes (outside of the northeast corridor); they're required to share with Amtrak. The two studied routes (Atlanta to Nashville and Memphis to Nashville) would run most of their routes along CSX rails.

I think this would be the biggest failure of any rail project we have. While yes, utilizing CSX freight lines would allow trains to get up and running faster and cheaper (no ROW purchase), it would also hamper future growth and future schedule enhancements. Not to mentioned those line are not capable of handling high-speed rail that we should be targeting. 

10 hours ago, bnacincy said:

If CSX is required to share the rail with Amtrak in some places perhaps there should be a law enacted to require CSX and other freight carriers to share the rail with commuter trains.

I think a case could be made that one incoming and one outgoing train a day would not unreasonably impair CSX's ability to operate its business-particularly if sidings were built at the commuter stations where trains could load and unload without hindering any traffic on the mainline.

It certainly would begin to address a lot of traffic issues in Nashville.

One train (incoming and outgoing) a day does unfortunately doe not make a commuter rail. As we are seeing with the WeGo Star, 10 trains a day really are not making a big dent. The WeGo Star is not even dealing with CSX either. RJ Coleman is the owner of the Star's ROW and supposedly they are accommodating and easy (relative when compared to CSX) to work with. There is also the necessary safety enhancements that would be required on the CSX owned tracks to allow for true commuter rail service. The WeGo Star is hampered big time by not having the PTC safety measures that would allow for additional trains and as a result, the train is not conducive to many worker's schedules. At least many of our main bus lines run on 15 minute headways, the Star will never be there (most commuter rails wouldn't be), but has a long way to go to be remotely conducive to the working man's schedule.

Personally, Amtrak needs to work with the federal government to get its own ROW. The tracks should be installed (or at least planned for) high speed rail capabilities to allow for future growth and future scheduling freedoms. I believe that if Amtrak makes use of the CSX tracks, then CSX will be the scapegoat for not improving on any implemented rail plan. Not only that, but because CSX will own the ROW, any train plan may not be able to make required updates to accommodate a more aggressive train approach.

[bnacincy]

Wow! Wasn't aware it was that many trains a day....thanks for clarifying.

[Nathan_in_DC]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:37 AM, bnacincy said:

If CSX is required to share the rail with Amtrak in some places perhaps there should be a law enacted to require CSX and other freight carriers to share the rail with commuter trains.

I think a case could be made that one incoming and one outgoing train a day would not unreasonably impair CSX's ability to operate its business-particularly if sidings were built at the commuter stations where trains could load and unload without hindering any traffic on the mainline.

It certainly would begin to address a lot of traffic issues in Nashville.

I can't imagine a plausible scenario where CSX would share trackage with a commuter rail for any real distance, especially if there are more than a few RTs each day. The timetable integration would be nearly impossible, and the inevitable delays caused by track sharing would render the commuter line unusable from a reliability standpoint.

For WeGo to ever work well they need to double track most (if not all) the system, electrify it, purchase more rolling stock, and update all stations with dual platforms. Ideally they would also move the downtown station somewhere to integrate with a wider network and increase the size of the terminal to accommodate multiple trains simultaneously.

[bnacincy]

5 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

I can't imagine a plausible scenario where CSX would share trackage with a commuter rail for any real distance, especially if there are more than a few RTs each day. The timetable integration would be nearly impossible, and the inevitable delays caused by track sharing would render the commuter line unusable from a reliability standpoint.

For WeGo to ever work well they need to double track most (if not all) the system, electrify it, purchase more rolling stock, and update all stations with dual platforms. Ideally they would also move the downtown station somewhere to integrate with a wider network and increase the size of the terminal to accommodate multiple trains simultaneously.

That would be very expensive and the only reasonable place to put a downtown station would be Union Station.

But in the long run, it may be worth it.

[andywildman]

6 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

I can't imagine a plausible scenario where CSX would share trackage with a commuter rail for any real distance, especially if there are more than a few RTs each day. The timetable integration would be nearly impossible, and the inevitable delays caused by track sharing would render the commuter line unusable from a reliability standpoint.

For WeGo to ever work well they need to double track most (if not all) the system, electrify it, purchase more rolling stock, and update all stations with dual platforms. Ideally they would also move the downtown station somewhere to integrate with a wider network and increase the size of the terminal to accommodate multiple trains simultaneously.

Agreed, I think double-tracking is the bare minimum CSX would require. Quick googling suggests widening a railroad bed and double-tracking is cheaper per-mile than adding another lane of interstate.

[Luvemtall]

2 hours ago, bnacincy said:

That would be very expensive and the only reasonable place to put a downtown station would be Union Station.

But in the long run, it may be worth it.

There’s large parking lots on both sides of the tracks ,just behind the hotel. A new “ Grand Central Union Station “ can span the tracks and accommodate both a train depot and multiple towers with a transit center for buses, ride share, etc on lower levels with the Amtrak train. 

[nashvillain_too]

Curbed, via New York Magazine, has a good summary of New York City's progress towards safer streets. Lots of pictures.

Not sure what it says about Nashville's chances when advocates in the most pedestrianized big city in the U.S. have to fight tooth and nail for safe streets. 

https://www.curbed.com/2023/12/safer-new-york-street-design-pedestrian-bike-progress.html?origSession=D231213a1UmuRju9CpsDH75PtCaC0OGco5ewElrz0wpP2qZark%3D&_gl=1*1pol335*_ga*MTE2NzMzMTQwMy4xNzAyMzkzMDYz*_ga_DNE38RK1HX*MTcwMjQyNzk1OS4xLjAuMTcwMjQyNzk1OS42MC4wLjA.