The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MorganRehnberg]

I didn’t get a picture, but they have repaved the entrance to the Gulch Greenway that is under the viaduct. It was torn up during the rebuild. 

[markhollin]

Hoooo, boy.  The plans to extend Cleveland St. and Grace St. under I-24 (eastern side of the inner loop) to connect Cleveland Park to the Oracle Campus.River North are getting complicated:

"I think it's fair to say it's more complex than what we thought," state Department of Transportation Commissioner Butch Eley told the Business Journal.

That stretch of highway is some of Nashville's busiest and most congested, with an average of 106,000 vehicles daily in either direction, according to TDOT data.

The Grace Street underpass will be designed for bicyclists and pedestrians, while the Cleveland Street connection will be wider, also accommodating vehicles.

The highway, which is TDOT's focus, sits atop an embankment about 15 to 20 feet tall. Officials now believe that isn't enough clearance when accounting for the site's proximity to the river and possible flooding issues.

"We had not done any engineering [in 2021]. We only looked at it conceptually," Eley said.

The situation means the highway "potentially" will need to be raised or elevated to create enough breathing room to extend Cleveland and Grace streets.

"I'd be hopeful in the next six months, we have some kind of resolution on what the path forward is," said Shaun Armstrong, director of project management for the TDOT region that includes Nashville.

TDOT committed to $38.4 million of funding toward the work, money that is mostly federal. The state also approved a $65 million jobs grant for the company.

Metro's capital improvements budget, which takes a six-year view of all potential projects, outlines about $57 million of possible Metro spending that could be required for the East Nashville connections.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2023/10/04/oracle-campus-east-nashville-dickerson-roads.html
 

[MLBrumby]

TDOT is pretty worthless! No engineering was done?!?!   And what's this "106,000 vehicles pass there each day"... No Duh!  Did they just figure thta out? And I suppose Metro would be the coordinating entity, but w.t.f.?  Why wasn't there a plan all ready to widen I-24 between Fern and the Cumberland (or all the way to the I-40/I-24 corridor)?  I'm understanding that the new underpasses will need to go deeper; so GO DEEPER! 

Another thing that gets my goat is the way news like this is reported... with the different monetary amounts sprinkled here and there through multiple paragraphs. Is it too much to ask for a chart telling where each segment/part is coming from and what is being done for the money? I just saw approximately $150M mentioned in that article from Federal, State and Metro taxpayers.... wasn't too long ago that we would have seen that whole segment of I-24 widened to 8 lanes for that amount. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by MLBrumby

[smeagolsfree]

From the Scene today:

One-Fifth of Downtown Nashville Is Devoted to Parking. Is That a Good Thing? | City Limits | nashvillescene.com

I still think that the walk bike Nashville does not work. Very few people bike onto downtown. Colby Sledge quoted in the article is still a clueless boob and always will be. You can't continue to reduce parking in the core and elsewhere without first increasing mass transit that actually works. The parking rates are still way too high and inconvenient for a lot of folks especially on budgets. The current on street parking system they just put into place is still not efficient.  They should have just done a parking app instead a pay station. It would have been so much simpler. Another Cooper blunder. I have used parking apps in other cities, and it works so much better. Parking pay stations are still so last century.

Again, you fix the transit first folks. As with everything else, Nashville puts the cart in front of the horse.

[Nathan_in_DC]

15 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

TDOT is pretty worthless! No engineering was done?!?!   And what's this "106,000 vehicles pass there each day"... No Duh!  Did they just figure thta out? And I suppose Metro would be the coordinating entity, but w.t.f.?  Why wasn't there a plan all ready to widen I-24 between Fern and the Cumberland (or all the way to the I-40/I-24 corridor)?  I'm understanding that the new underpasses will need to go deeper; so GO DEEPER! 

Another thing that gets my goat is the way news like this is reported... with the different monetary amounts sprinkled here and there through multiple paragraphs. Is it too much to ask for a chart telling where each segment/part is coming from and what is being done for the money? I just saw approximately $150M mentioned in that article from Federal, State and Metro taxpayers.... wasn't too long ago that we would have seen that whole segment of I-24 widened to 8 lanes for that amount. 

They already got $40 million appropriated from the state for the Cleveland Street project without even doing any back-of-the-napkin math on it? This is nuts.

It's almost like TDOT is beholden to rural pork barrel projects rather than doing things that would have meaningful benefit to thousands of people in Nashville. They're glad to throw $50+ million on a rural interchange and a 4-lane highway to nowhere in Humphreys County (receipts: Page 73 of this document), but backpedal and make excuses as to why they can't do basic street grid improvements in Nashville. Maybe, just maybe, TDOT is broken.

[donNdonelson2]

30 minutes ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

They already got $40 million appropriated from the state for the Cleveland Street project without even doing any back-of-the-napkin math on it? This is nuts.

It's almost like TDOT is beholden to rural pork barrel projects rather than doing things that would have meaningful benefit to thousands of people in Nashville. They're glad to throw $50+ million on a rural interchange and a 4-lane highway to nowhere in Humphreys County (receipts: Page 73 of this document), but backpedal and make excuses as to why they can't do basic street grid improvements in Nashville. Maybe, just maybe, TDOT is broken.

I have family in Humphreys County and I’d love to read about this high dollar project, but the link goes nowhere for me. Are you able to post an alternative link?

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

From the Scene today:

One-Fifth of Downtown Nashville Is Devoted to Parking. Is That a Good Thing? | City Limits | nashvillescene.com

I still think that the walk bike Nashville does not work. Very few people bike onto downtown. Colby Sledge quoted in the article is still a clueless boob and always will be. You can't continue to reduce parking in the core and elsewhere without first increasing mass transit that actually works. The parking rates are still way too high and inconvenient for a lot of folks especially on budgets. The current on street parking system they just put into place is still not efficient.  They should have just done a parking app instead a pay station. It would have been so much simpler. Another Cooper blunder. I have used parking apps in other cities, and it works so much better. Parking pay stations are still so last century.

Again, you fix the transit first folks. As with everything else, Nashville puts the cart in front of the horse.

I've come around to the obvious fact that it's not the cities problem if you can't find a spot to park your car. If you bought the car that is your problem. There are plenty of spots downtown, probably too many honestly, plenty of ways to get downtown without driving. Or parking farther away and walking if downtown is too expensive for you. 

I'd love to see bike lanes in the 440 core expanded. I live in Chestnut hill which is 1-1.5miles from Broadway. The only bike lane that is marked that I can think of is on Hermitage and it's a shared bike lane. So from 1st Ave S and Chestnut, I could bike way out of the way to a shared bike lane that takes me into downtown. OR take my chances on 2nd Ave S, which is a one way street into downtown, and therefore a speedway. 

People will bike if there is space, the people I've seen using 12th Ave S since the protected bike lane in has increased dramatically. 

[Luvemtall]

TDOT IS BROKEN!! Outdated, full of excuses, and way to wrapped up in politics to give two sh@@‘s about the needs of its core cities! The proof is in the pudding as they say, definitely a embarrassment and a disgrace.

[nashvillain_too]

5 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

From the Scene today:

One-Fifth of Downtown Nashville Is Devoted to Parking. Is That a Good Thing? | City Limits | nashvillescene.com

I still think that the walk bike Nashville does not work. Very few people bike onto downtown. Colby Sledge quoted in the article is still a clueless boob and always will be. You can't continue to reduce parking in the core and elsewhere without first increasing mass transit that actually works. The parking rates are still way too high and inconvenient for a lot of folks especially on budgets. The current on street parking system they just put into place is still not efficient.  They should have just done a parking app instead a pay station. It would have been so much simpler. Another Cooper blunder. I have used parking apps in other cities, and it works so much better. Parking pay stations are still so last century.

Again, you fix the transit first folks. As with everything else, Nashville puts the cart in front of the horse.

You're basically saying that people who drive can't be inconvenienced but it's perfectly okay for people who use transit and cycle to be incredibly inconvenienced.  Man, finding a parking space is such a hassle because there's no parking app. Well, what's it like finding a safe route to cycle? What's it like trying to figure out when the next bus is coming and how long you have to wait on a transfer? You'll probably say, "Well so many more people drive so obviously they should be catered to." And the answer to that is, "No duh, we've spent the last 70 years spending on infrastructure that only services one mode."

How do you change without actually, you know, changing? Will some people (you) be peeved because their favorite parking spot is no longer right in front of their destination and no longer costs free? Yeah, sorry.

Colby Sledge has done a lot for the city and is actively trying to make it a better place and to his credit cares more about the people who live here than visitors. 

[Nathan_in_DC]

21 hours ago, donNdonelson2 said:

I have family in Humphreys County and I’d love to read about this high dollar project, but the link goes nowhere for me. Are you able to post an alternative link?

Re-doing the link here... https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/programdevelopment/2023-2026-stip-draft/Tennessee STIP 2023-2026 Final_R.pdf

Basically it's building a 4-lane extension of Highway 13 from Buffalo south to the Perry County line. I grew up in Perry County and my family is all from Humphreys County, that's why I picked this as an example!

Here's a screen grab in case it doesn't load again:

I've driven this route literally thousands of times and there is zero need for a 5 lane (4 travel + 2 gutter) in this stretch. They're trying to do this to attract business to a new industrial zone just south of the county line, which I get...this area needs all the investment it can get...but this is unnecessary overkill when a couple of turning lanes and and uphill passing lanes would be more than enough to allow for future development.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nathan_in_DC

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

Re-doing the link here... https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/programdevelopment/2023-2026-stip-draft/Tennessee STIP 2023-2026 Final_R.pdf

Basically it's building a 4-lane extension of Highway 13 from Buffalo south to the Perry County line. I grew up in Perry County and my family is all from Humphreys County, that's why I picked this as an example!

I've driven this route literally thousands of times and there is zero need for a 5 lane (4 travel + 2 gutter) in this stretch. They're trying to do this to attract business to a new industrial zone just south of the county line, which I get...this area needs all the investment it can get...but this is unnecessary overkill when a couple of turning lanes and and uphill passing lanes would be more than enough to allow for future development.

I worked on the TPR for this project. It's located here:

tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/government-how-do-i-documents/Studies/StatewidePlanning/studies-TPR-Perry-SR13FromSR-20toI-40-PIN111109.pdf

The main driver of this project stems from the recession; Perry County in particular was hurting (the report mentions that, at the time, it had the highest unemployment rate in the state). It also qualifies for the county seat connector program.

As noted in the report, at the time TDOT recommended localized safety/operations improvements rather than a full widening or relocation. But this was before the IMPROVE Act and the origins of the job point to it being included strictly for political reasons.

[Nathan_in_DC]

4 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

I worked on the TPR for this project. It's located here:

tn.gov/content/dam/tn/tdot/documents/government-how-do-i-documents/Studies/StatewidePlanning/studies-TPR-Perry-SR13FromSR-20toI-40-PIN111109.pdf

The main driver of this project stems from the recession; Perry County in particular was hurting (the report mentions that, at the time, it had the highest unemployment rate in the state). It also qualifies for the county seat connector program.

As noted in the report, at the time TDOT recommended localized safety/operations improvements rather than a full widening or relocation. But this was before the IMPROVE Act and the origins of the job point to it being included strictly for political reasons.

You touch on a primary point here: TDOT engineers put together reasonable recommendations that are then ignored in favor of bloated projects that create extremely lucrative contracts to a relatively small number of companies. Then, said politicians can point to these inefficient-at-best improvements as ways they're helping their rural constituencies, regardless of the real benefit, getting some good photo-ops and local paper writeups. And that's not even touching on the other ways that amount of money could have been spent to provide a higher ROI (acknowledging that some of the Federal funds are earmaked for specific projects and couldn't necessarily be used for anything other than road construction).

[PruneTracy]

21 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

You touch on a primary point here: TDOT engineers put together reasonable recommendations that are then ignored in favor of bloated projects that create extremely lucrative contracts to a relatively small number of companies. Then, said politicians can point to these inefficient-at-best improvements as ways they're helping their rural constituencies, regardless of the real benefit, getting some good photo-ops and local paper writeups. And that's not even touching on the other ways that amount of money could have been spent to provide a higher ROI (acknowledging that some of the Federal funds are earmaked for specific projects and couldn't necessarily be used for anything other than road construction).

I think a multi-lane highway makes sense in terms of creating a corridor from Clarksville to Florence and Muscle Shoals; it would connect five county seats as well (and the county seat connector program is a worthwhile endeavor even though, or perhaps because, some are remote). There is also a feasible corridor all the way across the state using the Buffalo River and other river/stream valleys. Whether or not it is an immediate priority, I don't know, but should be an ultimate goal.

I'm not a fan of using infrastructure speculatively for economic development because: a) sometimes that development, or the infrastructure itself, doesn't follow through to completion; and b) there's a larger point to be made about whether we should be scattering employment bases across the state and creating conditions where regions are dependent on a single large employer (this is the reason Perry County was in bad shape at the time this project was studied in the first place; when the Siegel-Robert Automotive plant closed with 500 jobs lost it sent Perry County to the top of the unemployment list in both Tennessee and the ARC). That being said, Tennessee has done very well in recent years partially by being responsive to employer needs for infrastructure (cf. Blue Oval City), and even Perry County has added jobs and population with unemployment at background levels in spite of zero-point-zero miles of multi-lane highway in the county.

Ultimately, as long as our highway system uses tax money, it will remain beholden to political interests. There is an alternative model to treat state and local DOTs as public utilities, allowing them to replace gas taxes or public earmarks with VMT taxes, tolls, etc. and thus bring their own funding under their control. The long-term ramifications of this are unclear, and seems unlikely in any case that even the deep-red Tennessee legislature would relinquish control of the largest single landowner in the state and their $2 billion $5 billion budget. However, the TMA allows TDOT to create P3s that base funding models on viability of long-term revenue streams and this is going to have to be the future of highway expansion in urban areas in Tennessee and elsewhere.

[markhollin]

One fifth of downtown is devoted to parking:

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/citylimits/one-fifth-downtown-nashville-devoted-to-parking/article_d9b547e2-621c-11ee-b786-8b0685759ebd.html

[MLBrumby]

57 minutes ago, markhollin said:

One fifth of downtown is devoted to parking:

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/citylimits/one-fifth-downtown-nashville-devoted-to-parking/article_d9b547e2-621c-11ee-b786-8b0685759ebd.html

Pretty sure it's Light Years ahead of how it was when I lived in Nashville... there was that cluster of buildings around Church/4th/Union and Deaderick... about 14-16 blocks circa 1990?... making up the "urban core".  Give it time! I'd guess it's 4 times larger now, and on the way to 5-6 times larger in 5 years. Already, Nashville's core surpasses the vast majority of cities in the second 15 largest cities (and a few larger ones) for urban development. It just keeps building on itself!  BTW: I'm thinking that Nashville could well crack the Top 20 of US cities in the next 2-3 years! May crack the Top 30 metros... but that's a larger stretch. 

Somewhat related... I talked with a good friend who tracks demographic changes for a living (consultant for past 25 years). He says the top 15 states in 2030 will be... CA, TX, FL, NY, PA, GA, IL, NC, OH, MI, NJ, VA, AZ, TN, WA... and his stretch for 2040 is CA, TX, FL, NY, GA, NC, PA, IL, OH, VA, MI, NJ, AZ, TN, WA.  Very interesting! Said the raw data he has on migration out of CA, NY, IL, MA, WA and NJ is stunning. He has hundreds of spreadsheets and under various scenarios. He calls his statistics "crystal ball" but I think that's from an old software package. I asked him about 2050 and his reply was hilarious... "If I knew that I'd be making millions in the stock market!" 

[chc3]

14 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Said the raw data he has on migration out of CA, NY, IL, MA, WA and NJ is stunning.

WA surprises me.

[KJHburg]

Nashville metro ranks #36 in the top 50 best cities for commuters.  They look at several factors including time lost annually in traffic, insurance costs etc.

Raleigh is #3 best,  Austin #15, Charlotte at #21 but you do better than Atlanta, Chicago and Houston the cities at #48 #49 and #50.

Is Commuting Worth It? The Best Cities for Commuters in America (2023) (listwithclever.com)

[MLBrumby]

Austin at #15!?!?!?  I'm going to call BS on that!

OK... seeing Nashville as "good" as #36 with its circa 1963 transportaion infrastructure is also BS! 

Edited October 9, 2023 by MLBrumby

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update: pedestrian fencing continues to be installed.

[markhollin]

The Charlotte Ave. overpass of Rosa L. Parks Blvd. is having some work done.

Looking NW from the eastern edge of the bridge:

[markhollin]

It's been about eight months since street parking in Nashville got "smart."

Beginning in February, Nashville replaced its nearly 1,300 coin-operated street parking meters with modernized multi-space kiosks that accept payments via coins, credit cards and e-commerce transactions on smart phones. Since February, NDOT installed 116 multi-space pay stations throughout the city, serving about 1,800 parking spaces. Another 109 machines in inventory have yet to be installed.

Through September, NDOT reported 321,000 transactions totaling $1.44 million in revenue through the kiosks and phone applications, a "tremendous increase" in overall parking revenue. About 99% of transactions were made through credit cards, according to NDOT. The average ticket value was about $4.50, aligning with the average parking duration of just under two hours.

Revenue from the metered spaces goes toward infrastructure improvements for transportation and parking.

More at The Tennessean here:
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2023/10/16/nashville-parking-what-to-know-about-smart-street-meters/71147265007/

[PaulChinetti]

Such cheap parking is crazy. 

What is a ticket for going over I wonder? like 50 bucks?

[GregH]

I've seen a lot of people on Reddit extremely mad about the pay parking but I've found paying by phone very convenient and yeah, not really particularly expensive.

To be fair, it is quite a big change from the previous state of affairs, where you could mostly completely ignore parking meters and never get a ticket (and until a few years ago the tickets were like $11).

Edited October 16, 2023 by GregH

[BNAfan]

5 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Such cheap parking is crazy. 

What is a ticket for going over I wonder? like 50 bucks?

Just prior to the automated system, the fine was $70. 

[smeagolsfree]

Again, the system is still not a fit for Nashville. You are not able to extend you parking if needed. The merchants quoted in the article were worried about folks not being able to run errands in the allotted time. That is such BS. The only folks parking on the streets are people that work there and tourist. I do think the folks visiting should be able to extend once. Running errands downtown is a stretch of the imagination. When did anyone on this board run multiple errands downtown or visit multiple merchants. That is a BS statement by the writer of the Tennessean article probably based on one comment stretching for an excuse.

Downtown is a tourist-oriented economy and there are plenty of parking garages to park in if you are going to stay any length of time and the locals know this. I never attempt to get a street space if I know I am going for any longer period of time which as you guys know is on Saturdays and any other times I know where the free parking is. It is just people mainly locals are not that stupid and are able to figure it out and walk a little further.

Downtown is for the tourist for the most part except for the sporting events and concerts and we don't park on the streets for that. Besides even if I am visiting another city, I do not park on the streets without checking the rules first.

Nashville has not done a good job with this parking roll out and made it look like a money grab and made it hard for the tourist to park. The blame again is on the former mayor of Hobbiton for doing a lousy job that he criticized his predecessor about and basically did the same thing. He was the worse about the pot calling the kettle black.