>> Providence Downtown Area

[Cotuit]

My estimate is that 10,000 people living in the downtown and its immediate environs will make the place vital and sustainable, and 20,000 residents will make it a premiere urban neighborhood.

How attainable do you think those numbers are considering there were only just shy of 2,700 people (as opposed to units) Downcity in 2000? Even with units that have been added since 2000 and those that are in progress and scheduled for completion before 2010, do we have a shot at 10,000 by 2010 (I assume Cornish has crunched these numbers already)?

I'm assuming that many of the added units will feature one and two person households.

And if you look at the pyramid chart for 2000, a little over 600 of that 2,700 is 15-19 y.o. (I assume many of those are J&W students, though there are children living in Cathedral Square).

[AriPVD]

We may hit 5,000 by 2010, but even that is ambitious. I'd say 10,000 units is 10-15 years away.

[Cotuit]

We may hit 5,000 by 2010, but even that is ambitious. I'd say 10,000 units is 10-15 years away.

Does Cornish stretch its definition of Downcity when its thinking about its retail customer base to include surrounding areas such as the 'Near West Side' (i.e. MetroLofts), and the Jewelry District, and areas just over the river (South Main)? I wonder what the residential numbers would end up being if a quarter mile ring was added around Downcity.

[Garris]

Does Cornish stretch its definition of Downcity when its thinking about its retail customer base to include surrounding areas such as the 'Near West Side' (i.e. MetroLofts), and the Jewelry District, and areas just over the river (South Main)? I wonder what the residential numbers would end up being if a quarter mile ring was added around Downcity.

I was initially quite depressed when reading Ari's 10,000 for vitality and stability number, and 20,000 for premiere urban neighborhood. I was hoping the numbers to achieve that with downtown alone would be somewhat lower, like maybe 6000-7000 for sustainability and 12,000 for premiere urban neighborhood given that, again, about 3000 people live there now.

But then I thought about the adjoining areas issue... As Cotuit asks, does this include S. Main and Benefit Street (RISD)? Does it include Federal Hill? The JD and upcoming 195 land?

20,000 is quite a target for downtown alone. Look at Minneapolis, a city with a quite sustainable downtown already, for comparison. That city has a metro area of 3 million, a city population of about 380,000, and a core downtown population of 20,000 in the 2000 census. It's estimated to have gone up to 25,000 in the last couple of years, and city leaders would love to see it up to 40,000 by 2010 to 2015 with all the condo towers on the drawing board. And again, its downtown is already rocking. Philadelphia, also for comparison, has a core downtown population of 80,000.

So where will our population increase come from?

- 110

- Westin

- Waterplace

- Greene condos

- Capitol Cove (stopping myself from giggling here...)

- ? More RISD students downtown?

- Metrolofts

- 333 Atwells

- Grants Block

- Atwells (Broadway) tower?

And that's assuming these all happen. Where else will the population come from? Does dense residential development need to be a big cog in the 195 land puzzle?

I personally never saw the downtown rebirth as being powered by residents alone. That's why I've always felt the "destination" Newbury St model for Westminster and surrounding streets was the best way to go. As we've discussed (sometimes angrily) here in Wayland Sq, residents here want "businesses by residents for residents" but business people are screaming that there aren't enough people to support it, and thus the Red Stripes and Harukis are needed to pull in people from elsewhere as well.

Interesting issue...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

That's why I've always felt the "destination" Newbury St model for Westminster and surrounding streets was the best way to go.

But would Newbury Street be as successful without its residents? There are a lot of people living on Newbury itself, then even more on Comm. Ave. Marlborough Street, Beacon Street, Prudential Center. Newbury certainly draws, but I don't know if it could thrive without Back Bay's dense residential areas.

[AriPVD]

I don't include Fed Hill, but I do include J.D., Cap Center and the immediate environs west of Benefit. And the retail customer base should include those "downtown" residents, office workers (30,000+), college students, tourists and conventioners. Those groups are the low hanging fruit. Next would be people from other Providence neighborhoods, who require better mass transit to get them downtown by choice. And then finally, suburban/regional people. I imagine they will be the most difficult demographic to get to come downtown.

[Cotuit]

Police substation to reopen on Weybosset Street [ProJo.com]

[Jerry2]

Driving home from work tonight on 195...I couldn't help but notice that the former Coro? Jewelry building on Pine Street behind the J&W dorms had a lot of activity going on. There were HVAC and other assorted service vehicles parked outside and lights strung about. This building has been vacant for quite some time and has been primarily used as a parking lot for J&W students. It is the last building on the right b4 you take 95 N coming from 195 east of the city. The building is nothing spectacular nor historical for that matter but the location is excellent. Any ideas on what's going on here?

[Frankie811]

Last night I noticed that Finnegan's Wake put up an expandable screen or fence around the front of their club for what I'm guessing was for outdoor seating. I wonder why they felt the need to shield their patrons from the public. This morning the screen was down and against the building so maybe they'll be doing this every night now.

[runawayjim]

Last night I noticed that Finnegan's Wake put up an expandable screen or fence around the front of their club for what I'm guessing was for outdoor seating. I wonder why they felt the need to shield their patrons from the public. This morning the screen was down and against the building so maybe they'll be doing this every night now.

i've been down there a few nights in the past couple weeks. that fencing goes up every night around 6:30-7.

i'm wondering if that's so that they can serve alcohol out there and not have to worry about panhandlers harassing their customers. i have to say, it is quite ugly and quite annoying. i don't think if i was there that i'd want to sit outside behind that thing.

[jencoleslaw]

i've been down there a few nights in the past couple weeks. that fencing goes up every night around 6:30-7.

i'm wondering if that's so that they can serve alcohol out there and not have to worry about panhandlers harassing their customers. i have to say, it is quite ugly and quite annoying. i don't think if i was there that i'd want to sit outside behind that thing.

unless the patrons of Finnigan's wake have changed that much in the last few years i would suspect the fence is actually to keep the public safe from the patrons.

[Recchia]

It's probly to keep the hoo-ha skanks that go there out of public view. Now all they need is one for the Complex!

when did I become so bitter and mean?....

[Cotuit]

unless the patrons of Finnigan's wake have changed that much in the last few years i would suspect the fence is actually to keep the public safe from the patrons.

Yes, I was thinking the Finnegan's Wake customers are the ones who panhandle the people sitting outside Bravo. (see, we're all bitter this morning).

I'm not really opposed to this, its the execution that stinks. There's a gay bar in Boston that has a very small outdoor area surrounded by evergreen shrubs that serves as the bar's smoking area. It allows people who have already been carded to step outside and not have to be hassled for ID when the reenter (as there is no way to in from the outside area). It looks much better from the street than what Finnegan's has done.

[runawayjim]

i meant to post this sooner...

i've been going downtown a bit more often lately and i've been lucky to find parknig on empire in those diagonal spots with the new meters.

some complaints...

first, i thought they took credit cards, but i was wrong. i figured they'd at least take cash. wrong again.

so i had to back to my car (which was right next to one of htem) and get as much non-penny change i could find. since i use quarters for laundry, i had a bunch of dimes and nickels in my car. i start to use the machine. it says on the screen "card access only". WTF? so i walk to the next nearest one. same deal. so finally, i walk to the end of empire by finnegans (i was by dunkin donuts) and that one actually takes change. so i start loading it up. i get to a certain time and it gives me an error, so i get all my change back. try again. same deal. so i gave up and only put in enough money to get me to 5:45 hoping they wouldn't ticket me and knowing that i'd appeal it saying that the meters were all busted. it literally took me about 5-8 minutes to pay the meter once i parked. it was easier finding a parkign space.

these meters need to accept dollar bills and debit/credit cards.

[Frankie811]

i meant to post this sooner...

i've been going downtown a bit more often lately and i've been lucky to find parknig on empire in those diagonal spots with the new meters.

some complaints...

first, i thought they took credit cards, but i was wrong. i figured they'd at least take cash. wrong again.

so i had to back to my car (which was right next to one of htem) and get as much non-penny change i could find. since i use quarters for laundry, i had a bunch of dimes and nickels in my car. i start to use the machine. it says on the screen "card access only". WTF? so i walk to the next nearest one. same deal. so finally, i walk to the end of empire by finnegans (i was by dunkin donuts) and that one actually takes change. so i start loading it up. i get to a certain time and it gives me an error, so i get all my change back. try again. same deal. so i gave up and only put in enough money to get me to 5:45 hoping they wouldn't ticket me and knowing that i'd appeal it saying that the meters were all busted. it literally took me about 5-8 minutes to pay the meter once i parked. it was easier finding a parkign space.

these meters need to accept dollar bills and debit/credit cards.

Why are you even worried about getting a ticket after 3pm when the meter maids usually start heading back to whatever hole they crawled outta. I've never got a ticket after 3.

[Cotuit]

I'm not a total idiot, but I was with my parents a couple months ago, and we parked there, and I could not figure out those meters. No cash, no credit cards, I didn't have change. So, I just didn't pay, didn't get a ticket.

I could figure out the ones in New York though.

Why are you even worried about getting a ticket after 3pm when the meter maids usually start heading back to whatever hole they crawled outta. I've never got a ticket after 3.

I wouldn't count on that 3pm rule.

[Frankie811]

I wouldn't count on that 3pm rule.

I think you'll be ok unless one is foolish enough to park in let's say a handicap spot, near a fire hydrant or a loading or no parking zone.

[runawayjim]

I'm not a total idiot, but I was with my parents a couple months ago, and we parked there, and I could not figure out those meters. No cash, no credit cards, I didn't have change. So, I just didn't pay, didn't get a ticket.

the instructions on those things suck. they are not the least bit intuitive.

[Cotuit]

A photo I found in the Europe section of Leipzig, Germany:

Westminster could easily look like this.

[Frankie811]

I had to look twice. I actually thought that was Westminster St. In particular, the building at Westminster and Eddy.

[Garris]

I had to look twice. I actually thought that was Westminster St. In particular, the building at Westminster and Eddy.

I was about to say that Eddy in particular downtown would be perfect for this type of lighting and retail configuration.

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Car-free Sunday's are an idea that is being boosted in some city's including a proposal in Boston to restrict cars from part of Hanover Street in the North End on weekends. We've talked about the failed Westminster Mall before, but what do people think of the idea of car-free weekends or Sundays on Westminster. The idea is that the street would be turned over to outdoor dining, live music, art and other vendors...

Maybe we don't have the critical mass to support this type of almost carnival like atmosphere every weekend, so maybe it could be a "First Weekend" type deal where the first (or second or third...) weekend of each month is car free.

[Garris]

Maybe we don't have the critical mass to support this type of almost carnival like atmosphere every weekend...

Unfortunately, I believe that's true. I wouldn't want anything right now, no matter how small and well intentioned, that could place the words "Westminster" and "inaccessible" in the same thought bubble...

- Garris

[runawayjim]

Unfortunately, I believe that's true. I wouldn't want anything right now, no matter how small and well intentioned, that could place the words "Westminster" and "inaccessible" in the same thought bubble...

- Garris

doesn't the current state of westminster already do that?

i don't think there's enough on westminster to make it worth it. we'd also have to leave the cross streets (or at least a few of them) open so people who didn't know where they were going can get through rather than make it seem like the city ends at westminster.

i do like the idea though, and considering how many people drive, it might work. people will drive through see the street closed off for something and think "oooo party" and check it out.

[jencoleslaw]

i think it could work, but not on a sunday...I've been to things after work on westminster, where the street is blocked off all the way from Dorrance to Empire, with restaurants out, Trinity was there, it was kind of like a "sidewalk sale" and this was before the stores opened...I think a thursday afterwork deal to start would work, and then move to a saturday during waterfire or something.... But never sunday...sunday is just not a day for Providence downtown yet.