>> Providence Downtown Area

[runawayjim]

wow, i agree with jerry on something. i wish the downtown retail wasn't so aimed at the upper class and trendy stuff. i don't think that providence should have a street like that. i think it needs to cater to all walks of life. there's nothing really for the middle class except the mall. i'd rather shop in more independent stores, but there's nothing that i can really afford on westminster except some of the stuff at bowl and board (which i really like). design within reach is hardly within reach unless i get a 5 finger discount. i don't want to see the prices at clover, although some are saying they have some reasonable prices (starting at $40 is not reasonable if you ask me, i don't care what the label says). i wish oop would open downtown rather than stay in the mall, but i'm glad a local store is still doing fairly well in the mall. maybe they'll move out of it once the downtown retail takes off... but i don't know if it will if they (1) don't advertise that it's there, (2) don't stay open, and (3) don't cater to everyone and only cater to the upper class. we don't need a newbury st.

[CtownMikey]

The office closed a little early today so I decided to go to Westminster and check out Clover and the flea market ( Bowl & Board) Both stores were closed @ 6PM. The only store on the block that was open was Cathers&Coyne and there was not one soul inside. Scanning the entire street from Dorrance to Empire produced only two couples that appeared frightened by the darkness and lack of people. They were walking extra fast to wherever they were going..probably Trinity...it looked like they had something going on. I didn't want to go to the mall but I couldn't help driving by and assessed that the mall was swamped. It was then that I realized that all of Pvd has suffered from this monstrosity. Sure it has brought a lot of people into the city that may never have visited before and the CBD has never looked better in all my memory. However, I started to think about all the retail districts in the city...Federal Hill, Thayer, Wickenden...etc. They have all lost retail business and essentially become glorified food courts as a result of the mall. I know that it's there now and there is no way I can take it back, but I look at the terrible connection to downtown and cringe. The highway( Memorial Blvd) that separates Capital Center from the CBD is a deterrent to economic development in the CBD...never mind that it deters people from going anywhere past Memorial or suffer a deathwish...

Anyways..I was extremely disappointed. I've been labeled a pessimist and a "local" by some members of UP, but you have to see it through my viewpoint. I've seen downtown go through more re-inventions than Cher. Like the battle in Iraq, we need a different direction. Although it's been discussed here in the past a multitude of times and some people will vehemently disagree with me, PVD cannot support a Newbury style shopping experience. There is not enough businesses here. There is not enough disposable income. Sure some can survive but you have to look at districts like Federal Hill and Wickenden that have an eclectic mix of businesses that cater to all demographics. Although the mall effectively sucked business away, they remain destinations. Unless these businesses in the CBD have a strong online clientele, I don't see any of them surviving 2007. I feel the frustration of a business owner that's invested thousands of dollars to find his investment losing money. The condos in Waterplace and Westin will have zero effect on the CBD. These same people will have apprehension crossing the highway for their basic necessities. It would be safer for them to walk or drive to University Heights. I don't profess to know everything about the retail situation downtown, but based on some posters' observations and my own, it seems like everything isn't as kosher as some envision. I would suggest a totally different direction. Perhaps that would take dropping the rents a little to try to attract tenants that have a broader appeal to the majority young college population that exist in the immediate vicinity. Such integration would create a more cohesive community and bring more people downtown. Aside from the failing grade with respect to lighting, signage, and cleanliness, this area is completely salvageable. I think it takes the vision of somebody that doesn't try to equate Pvd's redevelopment or stature w/ Boston, Philly, Ny, or wherever. I hope that somebody will come to the rescue!

[KRC]

To be blunt, I'm extremely dissappointed with Westminster this holiday season. The Hoidays make up a major portion of retailers annual take, and the retailers on Westminster have let another hoiday season slip through thier fingers.

Marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing.

Oh, and, being open once and a while would help to.

[jencoleslaw]

To be blunt, I'm extremely dissappointed with Westminster this holiday season. The Hoidays make up a major portion of retailers annual take, and the retailers on Westminster have let another hoiday season slip through thier fingers.

Marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing.

Oh, and, being open once and a while would help to.

[gregw]

Projo article on exactly this topic: the marketing of Westminster St.

From my perspective, while Bowl and Board is great, a lot of the other shops are just too pricey. There also needs to be better marketing. I talk to people on the East Side who are barely even aware of what Westminster has to offer. An advertising blitz before and during XMas and a clear and inexpensive parking policy like the Mall (say $1 with validation) would help.

On a postive note, I did my Christmas shopping there yesterday, and there was a respectable turnout at Bowl and Board and Craftland. RISDWorks was packed. Yet Design within Reach, Butterfields, Clover and Carothers (the shoe place) were deserted.

[AriPVD]

Not correcting, just doing some fact checking:

A) The Westminster Lofts are fully occupied.

B) You know little about the sales of each of these stores. I assure you each has a different level of success, and you'd be surprised how successful some have been in such a short time. Don't forget, rent on Westminster Street is very different than rent on Thayer St. or Wayland Square. This changes the "sales needed to survive" equation dramatically.

C) This is a long term redevelopment project. This will not happen over night. If you remember what Westminster St was like one year ago compared to now, nevermind two years ago, it has been a dramatic transformation. Keep a long view, not a short view. This is not a short view project.

D) You have seen mostly "luxury" tenants come to Westminster St because that is the dominant trend in American retail. Additionally, the model for luxury retail is different. An expensive clothing store can have 5 customers a day and still do phenomenally well. They tend to not depend on foot traffic, and should not, because foot traffic on Westminster St is only now developing. In the new year, you will see amenity tenants like a wine store, grocer and gym. Moderately priced stores like American Apparel and Bowl and Board will proliferate.

E) There is at this moment just enough retail to begin a collaborative marketing effort. As that "critical mass" is hit, the retailers will start branding themselves as part of a district.

F) The future of retail downtown does not depend on just attracting East Siders or suburbanites. In fact, this is in some ways the most difficult group to access. The success of downtown retail will depend mostly on downtown residents, workers, students, vistors and conventioners. The more downtown turns into a vibrant, 24-hour mixed use neighborhood, the more viable the retail will become.

Happy holidays!

[Cotuit]

Not correcting, just doing some fact checking:

[pete11]

The "dominant trend" in american retail is decidely not luxury, but quite the opposite. If we're talking about "mixed used" becoming a euphimism for condos, furniture stores and coffee shops, well thats happening around the country I'll give you that, but a lot of that is the credit backed consumer that is now feeling tapped out.

As for Westminister between Dorrance and Empire, I don't know about the liquor store and the Gym, but the grocer (I had not heard this announced before, do you have more details?) is a step in the right direction. IMO there has been too much residential development in this area which has caused Dorrance to become a sort of Red sea for the 30k or so workers that come downtown every day. Thats why 6:00 is a good closing time: street activity dies.

Cotuit great point about the film crews, people talk about this long term plan, but treat the potential consumers like crap, just to stoke some vanities. That is IMO ridiculously short-sighted.

I'd like to wish everyone a happy and safe holiday season.

[quente]

I'm sure this has been brought up before in this thread, but it sounds to me like Westminster Street is at a point where it might benefit from a commercial revitalization program called Main Street. Some of you may be familar with the program; here's a link: National Trust Main Street Center

The program was started by the National Trust for Historic Preservation over 25 years to revitalize commercial districts through a Four Point Approach: Design, Organization, Promotion, and Economic Restructuring. A Main Street manager is hired to work with merchants on the four points and get the ball rolling. Clark Schoettle of the PPS Revolving Fund was one of the original Main Street managers when the Trust was developing the program.

I used to work for the National Trust in Texas and New Mexico and saw first-hand how it assisted a number of historic commercial districts in the southwest. I think it could address many of the issues that have been raised.

[ruchele]

I'm sure this has been brought up before in this thread, but it sounds to me like Westminster Street is at a point where it might benefit from a commercial revitalization program called Main Street.

[AriPVD]

Excuse me Pete, I meant in American downtown street retail. Luxury products have also been the fastest growing segment of the market during the "credit" years.

There has not been too much residential activity. I think you're glossing over the fact that for 20+ years Westminster St has been substantially abandoned. Commericial and retail moved out in the 70s and 80s, to be filled by nothing until the early 2000s.

[pete11]

Excuse me Pete, I meant in American downtown street retail. Luxury products have also been the fastest growing segment of the market during the "credit" years.

There has not been too much residential activity. I think you're glossing over the fact that for 20+ years Westminster St has been substantially abandoned. Commericial and retail moved out in the 70s and 80s, to be filled by nothing until the early 2000s.

[Jenkins]

I wonder if Portland Maine has some idea's downcity Providence could steal? They seem to have foot traffic downtown and are a small blue collar port city that has recovered after years of blight. They have a very interesting mix of creative stores, locally owned.

[runawayjim]

I wonder if Portland Maine has some idea's downcity Providence could steal? They seem to have foot traffic downtown and are a small blue collar port city that has recovered after years of blight. They have a very interesting mix of creative stores, locally owned.

[jencoleslaw]

I wonder if Portland Maine has some idea's downcity Providence could steal? They seem to have foot traffic downtown and are a small blue collar port city that has recovered after years of blight. They have a very interesting mix of creative stores, locally owned.

[mr2448]

Not correcting, just doing some fact checking:

A) The Westminster Lofts are fully occupied.

[Garris]

Not correcting, just doing some fact checking:

[runawayjim]

I have to say I'm surprised to see you post this! You really don't think the city should have a street like this? At all? We're only talking like three or four blocks.

Listen, I can't afford many of the items on Westminster either and even if I could Westminster wouldn't be a daily (or even weekly or even monthly) destination, but if we all want a Providence that attracts everyone, from the new immigrant to the middle class to the landed gentry, we need a street like Westminster.

I certainly don't want an entire city of Westminsters, but we do absolutely need a few blocks of it. I want someone to name a vital, successful American metropolis that doesn't have a single area that appeals to people of means. Locally, New Haven does. White Plains does. Portsmouth does. Even New Rochelle and Yonkers now do. And none of those cities are hardly gated communities for the wealthy.

I happen to work with some people who make a lot of money, and I, as a Providence resident, want some of their disposable income to end up here. And I promise, promise you that these people of means track retail developments and where they can spend their money very closely. As nauseous as it may make me, I've know people who make their decisions of where to live, where to eat, etc based upon the availability of a cluster of such upscale options. It speaks to them as to who they think they are.

You may not want such folks as your friends, your family, or your significant other, but I think if we're going to be a full service city, there's little wrong with three blocks that offer such a retail "lifestyle" option.

[Garris]

it's not that i don't think it should be like this, but to be honest, westminster is one of the only areas of retail downtown... i don't want our only/most prominent street of retail downtown to be all upscale.

[gregw]

I am not against Westminster being an upscale street with expensive shops. My concern was whether this vision of the street would prove successful given the sight of empty stores a few days before Christmas. Certainly the Projo article contributed to this sense of concern. However, I felt reassured after reading Ari's point that the stores in question do not depend on a lot of foot traffic as well as other aspects of Cornish's retail strategy. And there is no question that the transformation of Westminster has been impressive to say the least.

[jencoleslaw]

i'm actually going to disagree with the premise that westminster st is upscale. Because it isn't. Yes, Caruthers and Coyne is pricey and design within checkbook too, and perhaps Clover has something at the top end, but Butterfield has a great variety of price points some of which are very palatable, Bowl and Board is not expensive at all for what it sells, Dress Barn is by no way pricey, neither is the wig/hair care store, and a little further up the street that DCI store is downright cheap. The restaurants that pepper westminster are also not high end by any stretch.

I have no problem with providence having a Newbury St but even that street has a mix of high end, middle scale, and big box retail all mixed into it.

A few years ago, Atwells boasted several dress shops that were decidedly NOT affordable price points (Circo Viso being my favorite one) and they have since gone out of business, but i'm willing to bet it wasn't because of lack of sales ( i have theories as to why some stores don't do well on Atwells) The shops on atwells very much carry a higher price point than most of the rest of the city (with the exception of a few dress shops in Wayland Square) but no one has complained about Atwells being too upscale for the city.

However, i will continue to echo the whining of my friends here, who tried to shop on Westminster Street the week of christmas only to find it closed at 6 pm. To assume and depend first on only foot traffic as your primary demographic and second that that foottraffic would ONLY be around between 11 and 4 pm is simply not the greatest business plan.

[basachs]

To echo some sentiments here, I will tell a little story...

I took off yesterday and after meeting my wife for lunch, dropping her off and touring the GTECH building (or ice cube, as many people call it there,) i decided to meander through Waterplace and stroll down Westminster. This was around 2pm. I decided to go to Clover, becasue they carry this line of organic cotton jeans that I saw the last time I was there and i like the look and feel of them and wanted to try them on. And if they fit, probably buy them.

So I stroll down Westminster. Bowl and Board had a decent amount of people browsing and buying. I purchased a few items. Symposium had a decent amount of people, I purchased a book. DCI the same, and I found some cool chanukah stuff i wished i knew they had, but picked it up for next year. Clover? My destination? CLOSED! At 2pm on a tuesday. I agree with Garris and have no sympathy for a retail shop that cannot be open not only later in the evening, but on a regular old weekday.

I think another thing to realize here is that Westminster Street has a handful of shops right now. 5 shops do not a destination street make. There are too many empty pockets in between, and to a random person not from around here entering at either Dorrance, or Empire the street does not look as if there is anything on it. Nothing to entice a person to walk down there, especially at night.

I beleive in Westminster and beleive it will get better. But to hear people and shops beotch and moan about it right now seems premature. More shops need to go in there, and better signage and promotion is needed before more people come to this street.

My last point is that the people on these forums are a minority. We go on here to become educated about the goings on in our city. The majority of people do not, and are barely aware of Westminster.

[dgreco]

John Brown House restorations.

[Jerry2]

My last point is that the people on these forums are a minority. We go on here to become educated about the goings on in our city. The majority of people do not, and are barely aware of Westminster.

[runawayjim]

I understand the concern, but there are other areas of downtown that don't have to be upscale. There are huge gobs of Washington, Fountain, and especially Weybosset with tons of empty retail space that could appeal to different demographics (ex: college students on Weybosset).

But just as Westminster's direction isn't random (it's directed by Cornish), development of a broader based retail environment will have to be directed too. By J&W, Brown, the city, and other interested parties.

I think Ari's comments about the nature of "Main Street USA" retail bears some consideration as well. Broad based, "mainstream" retail has failed and closed in just about every downtown I can think of and has been nearly entirely monopolized by big-box concerns, amply represented by our own flourishing Providence Place Mall downtown. I personally think any "mainstream" retailer would be crazy to open up three or four blocks away from the mall, and I agree with Ari that niche marketers, who can charge a premium for fewer items of whatever they carry, are likely the future for "walkable" downtowns everywhere, for better or worse.

I doubt Providence's downtown is going to buck the trends going on almost everywhere else in North America right now...

What about the corner of Chapel and College, especially the "Chapel Shops," which look, feel, and have a boutique retail mix very similar to that of Westminster? "Ninth Square" downtown is literally a upscale plaza of high-end shops, cafes, and markets sitting in the middle of the very lower-class Eastern Chapel area?

I'm not sure there's a huge difference. I don't think many who live in NH would consider the Broadway area "downtown" any more than people consider the Wickenden area "downtown." Similarly, the College and Crown retail areas are similar in distance and feel to our N/S. Main retail environments.

When I lived there, "downtown" retail was considered the Eastern Chapel area, the Chapel Square Mall, and its immediate environment. Everything else was considered its own neighborhood or "Yale."

- Garris