Brightline Trains

[prahaboheme]

On 7/11/2014 at 3:01 PM, jrs2 said:

Says even more than...what?  Or about what?   My comment is simply comparing relative distances of what's considered a beltway in both towns.

 

I don't think I ever wrote that Orlando should follow the Atlanta example for smarter denser growth.  That being said, they do have MARTA and we don't.  What does that mean?  They had the density to support it.  They also have a massive downtown/midtown development and very urban development along the GA 400 spine up through Buckhead and into Perimeter Center.  Based on Atlanta's geography, I don't see how it could've developed any differently.  Same with Orlando, with all the lakes.

 

But it sounds to me like you think Atlanta is a sprawl wasteland.  Maybe I should use Chicago as an example- oh wait, they've got two beltways to the west and its SMSA extends into two other states.  New York?  Oh Yeah, that metro encompasses half of New England which includes sprawling suburban neighborhoods.  San Fransisco?  Nope.  LA?  Forget about it.  Boston? Nope.  Miami?  No way.

 

So, what city do you use as an example of smart growth?  And before you answer, are you talking about smart growth for the city core or for the metro as a whole, because just about every city in the world had outskirts and suburbs and sprawl.  Even Paris.  The one I can think of that has the least with the most defined boundaries is obviously a place like New Orleans because of the swamps.  The city and suburbs start, then stop, and that's that.

Well this is like 4 years late, but this seems as misguided then as it is now.

To bucket Atlanta in with cities like Boston, Chicago and even LA, totally disregards what all those cities actually have done to build cities whereas Atlanta spent much of the last 100 years doing  the exact opposite.

By your rationale, Paris and Orlando are no different because they both sprawl outward. Laughable. Throwing out whatever sticks to the wall is not an argument.

Edited November 14, 2018 by prahaboheme

[Dale]

Perhaps not for nothing, Amazon has confirmed that Nashville’s lack of transit (and none on the horizon) in no way deterred them from choosing the city. It’s almost as if, outside of pockets of light rail fetishim, almost no one really cares.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Dale

[spenser1058]

The Sentinel takes a look at Brightline service, fees and development around the Miami station..

Brightline passenger rail in Florida: Trains whisper, doors swish, bubbly flows
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-ne-brightline-orlando-preview-20181114-story.html

Edited November 14, 2018 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

20 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Well this is like 4 years late, but this seems as misguided then as it is now.

To bucket Atlanta in with cities like Boston, Chicago and even LA, totally disregards what all those cities actually have done to build cities whereas Atlanta spent much of the last 100 years doing  the exact opposite.

By your rationale, Paris and Orlando are no different because they both sprawl outward. Laughable. Throwing out whatever sticks to the wall is not an argument.

Wow!  Who the hec digs up a 4 year old post after all this time- and then  mischaracterizes it to boot?  I mean, seriously?

Anyway, your FG attempt sailed wide right (it means you're wrong). 

Every one of those cities I mentioned has a city center, urban neighborhoods, city parks, suburbs, suburban office parks, satellite cities, and sprawling highways. 

Let's be clear:  I never said Paris and Orlando are no different from one another- you surmised it.  

I also never commented on anything any of these cities spent much of the last 100 years doing to build cities- you did.  Nor did I compare that with the likes of Atlanta ala sprawl- again, you surmised it.

I also said the only metro with definable borders that I could think of at the time was NOLA, and this is a fact. 

Again, my point was to show that Orlando was sprawled much more than Atlanta, but, with that being said, places like Chicago et al are just as sprawled or even more so.  And that too is a fact.  Orlando has sprawl, and so do they- and that is the extent of the comparison that I made.

"Throwing out whatever sticks to the wall is not an argument." - great advice.  maybe you should take it yourself, next time you post in that Coffee House thread.

 

 

[prahaboheme]

Thank you for clarifying what you really meant, 4 years on (even if it’s still a jumbled mess).

[aent]

On 11/13/2018 at 11:13 AM, shardoon said:

Mark my words. Not a single person will ride this thing if they do not at least make a connection at I Drive. Who in their right mind would drive all the way out to the airport to pick up this train to a destination 60 to 90 minutes away? They are pushing it with a station at I Drive, but that is the only way I would even consider taking this to Tampa. I could be pulling up to the station in Tampa at the same time that I would have parked my car t the airport checking into the train terminal in Orlando. Stupidity at its finest. Also, if they think they are gonna catch tourists using this, they are highly mistaken. Tampa ain't no Miami as a tourist draw. 

I feel confident there will be a stop at I-Drive/Convention Center, Universal, or Disney, but likely only 1 of the 3.

[codypet]

^Disney & Airport in Orlando.  Nowhere else.

Edited November 15, 2018 by codypet

[aent]

4 hours ago, codypet said:

^Disney & Airport in Orlando.  Nowhere else.

I feel like with the new Universal park/property, they got the opportunity to get it if they want it, Comcast has deep pockets just like Disney, and it will be a way for them to one up Disney's Magical Express, instead of Disney replacing Magical Express with it. Its all private, so its gonna have some sort of special deal, too much money is on the table not to.

[dcluley98]

Article in the Sentinel today talking about Brightline. They did a projected "Cost per mile" estimate and said: 
"Brightline riders pay about 30 cents per mile. At that rate, a ticket from Miami to Orlando would cost as much $70."

[jrs2]

14 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Thank you for clarifying what you really meant, 4 years on (even if it’s still a jumbled mess).

The jumbled mess is digging up a 4-year-old post and mischaracterizing it and then trying to save face afterwards when you’re shown to be wrong.

[codypet]

10 hours ago, aent said:

I feel like with the new Universal park/property, they got the opportunity to get it if they want it, Comcast has deep pockets just like Disney, and it will be a way for them to one up Disney's Magical Express, instead of Disney replacing Magical Express with it. Its all private, so its gonna have some sort of special deal, too much money is on the table not to.

The parks goal is to keep people on property.  Even Disney is not keen on a stop.  The route will not follow the old Orlando to Tampa Rail route.  With SR 528 fully widened it won't fit anymore.   The route will go away from the tourist corridor.

[aent]

6 hours ago, codypet said:

The parks goal is to keep people on property.  Even Disney is not keen on a stop.  The route will not follow the old Orlando to Tampa Rail route.  With SR 528 fully widened it won't fit anymore.   The route will go away from the tourist corridor.

Yes, but thats why it will likely only stop at 1 of the 3.... Disney was very happy to have a stop as long as there were no stops on the I-Drive corridor. If there is better transit from the airport to the attractions, people are less likely to feel the need to rent a car, which makes it less likely they will go off property. I agree stops at Universal AND Disney is extremely unlikely, they won't want to make it easy to go to the other's property.

[shardoon]

Time to change the title of this thread to "Virgin Trains USA" 

[dcluley98]

Wow! 

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/introducing-virgin-trains-usa

[HankStrong]

As a unique tie-in to my part of this conversation, Branson also has Virgin Voyages coming online in 2020.  This is a cruise line sailing out of Port of Miami with their first ship the Scarlet Lady.  The 3 ships to follow have not be named yet and no home ports have been announced, but the rumor mill is pointing at least 1 more being in Florida, if not 2.  Port Canaveral and Port Everglades being the names tossed around.  They could put all 4 here, but Bayonne, NJ is getting mentioned or Galveston, TX.

Another Central Florida tie-in is that Tom McAlpin is launching the line for Virgin.  His name might not be familiar to you, but he's the guy that launched Disney Cruise Line back in the day.

 

If Virgin has ships in Florida and trains in Florida and airplanes in Florida, linking the 3 seems like a natural fit.

ETA: the 3 other ships come online in 2021, 22, and 23

[prahaboheme]

27 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Wow! 

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/introducing-virgin-trains-usa

What exactly does this mean? Will Virgin trains run on Brightline tracks?

[dcluley98]

Likely the same trains with new Livery. They will rebrand the website and change the name/logos everywhere for marketing purposes. 

[codypet]

^This.  No change to the project other than branding.

[HankStrong]

Funny tidbit that is completely off topic, but the Virgin Voyages ships are supposed to have an onboard tattoo parlor where you can get a tat to commemorate your cruise or just maybe make a drunken poor life decision?

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, aent said:

Yes, but thats why it will likely only stop at 1 of the 3.... Disney was very happy to have a stop as long as there were no stops on the I-Drive corridor. If there is better transit from the airport to the attractions, people are less likely to feel the need to rent a car, which makes it less likely they will go off property. I agree stops at Universal AND Disney is extremely unlikely, they won't want to make it easy to go to the other's property.

GOAA will lose rent-a-car revenue if BL has a stop at WDW...

[Dale]

#ResistTheMouse

[aent]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

GOAA will lose rent-a-car revenue if BL has a stop at WDW...

My understanding is the Brightline/MCO agreement is already finalized, so there isn't much GOAA can do if Brightline has stops they don't like, so it shouldn't run into the same problems as Maglev. They are paying quite a bit of rent to GOAA though. I wonder if Virgin Trains USA would be willing to tackle a local/the tourist route?

I do really like Brightline's train designs, so I'm a bit disappointed to lose that, but otherwise a great deal.

[shardoon]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

GOAA will lose rent-a-car revenue if BL has a stop at WDW...

How so? The free magical express to Disney already has squeezed the rental companies from the demographic. However, Mears will take the full brunt of Virgin since I believe Disney outsources their Magical Express to them. 

I would wonder if it would be cheaper for Disney to buy in bulk train tickets to WDW for all their hotel guests. I would love to see how much Disney spends on their Magical Express program. 

Honestly, this may be a huge opportunity for Brightline/Virgin. By just having that stop, they can have one  express train that runs back and forth from the Disney station to the Airport.  The rest of the trains can continue doing the Miami-Orlando-Tampa dance. Direct from the Airport to Disney, I think it would be under 10-15 min each way.  This would be a HUGE Disney contract and could probably keep the entire system afloat even if the statewide passenger counts are down.  

[prahaboheme]

What would deter Virgin from not only have a stop at Universal / OCCC but also just outside WDW if Dis doesn’t play ball?

While the Orlando dynamics are different, both of these companies (Disney and Universal) have shown a willingness to allow mass transit near their resorts around the globe:

Universal City - LA (red line metro stop)

Universal Singapore (metro stop)

Disneyland Resorts Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo (heavy rail metro stop at each)

Would Disney really let a high speed train pass right by their flagship property from Tampa to Orlando? Doubt it.

Edited November 17, 2018 by prahaboheme

[aent]

34 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

What would deter Virgin from not only have a stop at Universal / OCCC but also just outside WDW if Dis doesn’t play ball?

While the Orlando dynamics are different, both of these companies (Disney and Universal) have shown a willingness to allow mass transit near their resorts around the globe:

Universal City - LA (red line metro stop)

Universal Singapore (metro stop)

Disneyland Resorts Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo (heavy rail metro stop at each)

Would Disney really let a high speed train pass right by their flagship property from Tampa to Orlando? Doubt it.

Probably because if Disney doesn't play ball, Universal probably will, and I don't think they would want a stop near Disney. If neither do, its a possibility, but thus far, Brightline hasn't wanted too many stops. We'll have to see if the virgin deal changes that.